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MikeBike said:
Where do you pull this piece of info out of?
- I've never seen Ibm claim that. If that were true wouldn't a G5 be out now!
- The G5 might appear when IBM completes it's 65nm process. And even then if it's too hot or the heat is too concentrated it might not make it into a laptop.
- The Freescale chip is only going to be at 90nm, and be cooler.
- Fourth, the G5 Needs to run a couple tenth's of Ghz higher( .2 or .3 higher ) then a G4 to equal it's performance.
- If that wattage is a figure from a lightly loaded G5, ie. a PowerManagement type spec. then that won't help me as I keep my machine very busy.
- A dual core G4 is effectively a Heat-Spreader, and a better implementation of powermanagement could simply switch between the cpu's to keep things cooler, on a greater surface area.
- Have you heard of any road maps from AMD or Intel? The future is Dual-Core.

1. IBM PDF
That doc is nearly a year old. 970FX stated to consume 12.3W @ 1.4GHz and 24.5W @ 2.0Ghz. I'd say that's comfy for a powerbook. (Apple's G5 system controller is probably another matter!) Jesus, these numbers are similar to the G3!!!
2. & 3. The 970FX is a 90nm part with almost identical power consumption to the 7448 and 8461s from Freescale.
4. I don't see how you can believe that when the G4 sits there starving at it's 167MHz bus. Barefeats benchmarks don't seem to bear this out either: http://www.barefeats.com/pvp.html The G5 shows quite a bit faster clock for clock in most tests here.
5. All power consumption claims are best-case scenario: i.e. light load, ideal situations. This is true for Moto....er Freescale's 8461 claims as well as IBMs.
6. The cpus are not the heat problems. Pay attention. The 970s are cooler than the 450Mhz G4 in my cube (and many Moto chips used in powerbooks.) As are the current 7447s in powerbooks. So again, cpus don't seem to be the problem here...apple's controller IS the problem.
7. Have you heard of any roadmaps from IBM? oh, wait, you don't need a roadmap, the POWER5 is a shipping part...and it's dual-core. Oh, wait, so is the at least three year old POWER4 that the 970 is based on. So I think that when apple wants a dual-core part IBM can probably provide it.

and, for the not-asked question eight:
I'll wait for WWDC to decide if I think Apple is announcing a G5 powerbook. Heck, I'd be HAPPY if we saw a dual-core 8461 in powerbooks although I don't see how it's remotely possible before WWDC 2006. Anything with a system bus faster than 167MHz and DDR support would have me jumping up and down while ordering one gleefully from the Apple Store. But I get tired of people parroting the same unresearched info as if it's the gospel truth or saying that the digitimes article is a typo when it's clearly not as you can tell if you simply looked at the article. It could easily be TOTALLY WRONG, but it ain't a typo. If your article got this much attention, and there was a wicked bad typo causing it, wouldn't you correct the typo? I would. Also the Ars Technica article is skeptical but admits the possibility and doesn't claim it's a typo at any point. The ars technica guy does interpret iBook/iBook G5 to mean both at once whereas the logical thing to me would be iBook (g4) then a switch to iBook G5 when apple is satisfied that the powerbook G5 has taken hold. Then again, maybe apple will never release another notebook. I won't know until it happens. :)
 
pubwvj said:
Personally longer battery life is more important. I would much rather see a dual core G4 with the ability to halve and zero the cycles on each core to adjust to user needs thus conserving battery power.

What ever Apple does I hope they address power consumption and give us machines that last unplugged a lot longer. CPU's with variable speed and multiple cores is one good way to do this.

-Walter
in the frozen north

The IBM 970 chips have a variable power-use feature. I forget what IBM calls it.
 
panphage said:
1. IBM PDF
That doc is nearly a year old. 970FX stated to consume 12.3W @ 1.4GHz and 24.5W @ 2.0Ghz. I'd say that's comfy for a powerbook. (Apple's G5 system controller is probably another matter!) Jesus, these numbers are similar to the G3!!!

Oh goody. A 2 GHz G5 consumes as much power as a DUAL 1.5 G4. Which would you rather have? ;)
 
pubwvj said:
Hmm... maybe "most everyone" in the city but out here in the sticks very few people have cell phones. There's no point, or need.

I agree, a phone/camera/MP3/Palm sounds like a great idea. However, there will still be a huge market for the Shuffle, especially something so small. For example, my son's both like to listen to audio books while doing chores - they don't have phones, don't have reception, money or need. But a low cost iPod would be great for that. There are a lot of kids who can afford a $99 iPod Shuffle that don't need a phone or the attendant monthly bill.

Sure. Don't get me wrong. There will always be a market for small dedicated music players like the iPod Shuffle, but it will continue to shrink in the face of HDD players and converged devices like mobile phones and PDAs which will incorporate all there features without the need for a second (or third) device.
 
woooow.. are these 100% true?
I thought the g5 in a book was far far away..
so i guess new pb's wont be shipping "next tuesday"?
 
panphage said:
7. Have you heard of any roadmaps from IBM? oh, wait, you don't need a roadmap, the POWER5 is a shipping part...and it's dual-core. Oh, wait, so is the at least three year old POWER4 that the 970 is based on. So I think that when apple wants a dual-core part IBM can probably provide it.

How does IBM feel about creating PowerPC derivatives from their Power5 chips if it means Apple is competing with them directly in enterprise and HPC? Perhaps IBM is deliberately stalling the release of higher performing G5s in part to leverage demand for their own products.
 
3Memos said:
How does IBM feel about creating PowerPC derivatives from their Power5 chips if it means Apple is competing with them directly in enterprise and HPC? Perhaps IBM is deliberately stalling the release of higher performing G5s in part to leverage demand for their own products.
Hmmm, maybe you're doing a little too much yoga. The issue is trying to shoehorn a mainframe class processor into a laptop, you just know that's going to hurt. Especially when the laptop in question has certain design constraints re size/coolness. Not something IBM would necessarily have a lot of experience with. Corporate customers want a big box with lots of flashing lights to allay anxiety about the cost of the machines, not an itty bitty box to impress the dweebs in Starbucks.
 
Hoax?

Why should this not be a hoax? I only read (I did not read all comments :p) comments about it must be true or it is a typo. But maybe it is a hoax
 
pigwin32 said:
Back in November Think Secret was reporting on the 970GX and a low power version of the 970 for the PowerBook. The 970GX was reported as being ready Q1 or Q2 2005 although there is no indication when the low power version might be available. Think Secret has gained substantial credibility recently with it's reporting prior to MWSF. Of course there's not a lot of information here, all it really says is that PB's are due for a rev and we might see the low-power G5, the new Freescale 7448 e600 core, or obviously the 7447b that appears to be able to reach speeds of up to 1.7GHz. The smart money would probably be on the 7447b for a rev. and then it's anyone's guess, maybe the low-power G5 for a refresh later in the year.

Is the 7447b the current type of CPU in the PBs? If so I agree with you. We'll see minor speed bumps to the PBs within a month. Something like what Appleinsider reported on prior to MWSF.
 
pigwin32 said:
Hmmm, maybe you're doing a little too much yoga. The issue is trying to shoehorn a mainframe class processor into a laptop, you just know that's going to hurt. Especially when the laptop in question has certain design constraints re size/coolness. Not something IBM would necessarily have a lot of experience with. Corporate customers want a big box with lots of flashing lights to allay anxiety about the cost of the machines, not an itty bitty box to impress the dweebs in Starbucks.

Hmmm I believe the original comment was directed towards Apple's Xserve and PowerMac lines.
 
Phinius said:
Apple could still differentiate the 12" PowerBook and iBook enough to justify paying more for the PowerBook.

yea, like crippling its monitor spanning capabilities via (easily hackable) software, not including an audio input, and instead of plastic cases, use metal ones that appeal more to the masculine side of apple enthusiasts' checkbooks.

sorry but i just don't know why folks buy 12" Powerbooks anymore.
lets see.. 60GB HD is an extra $75 on an ibook 12". meaning for $1074 vs. $1599 you get the same ram, hd, screen, but lose 10% cpu power (big whoop - a G4 is a G4), audio input, and mini dvi.

$525 for 130mhz, mini dvi, and an audio input.
but i can get 1.25ghz for $499 !! :D
why does the 12" ibook exist again? anyone? :confused:
 
Waiting

panphage said:
1. IBM PDF
That doc is nearly a year old. 970FX stated to consume 12.3W @ 1.4GHz and 24.5W @ 2.0Ghz. I'd say that's comfy for a powerbook. (Apple's G5 system controller is probably another matter!) Jesus, these numbers are similar to the G3!!!
and, for the not-asked question eight:
I'll wait for WWDC to decide if I think Apple is announcing a G5 powerbook. Heck, I'd be HAPPY if we saw a dual-core 8461 in powerbooks although I don't see how it's remotely possible before WWDC 2006. Anything with a system bus faster than 167MHz and DDR support would have me jumping up and down while ordering one gleefully from the Apple Store. But I get tired of people parroting the same unresearched info as if it's the gospel truth or saying that the digitimes article is a typo when it's clearly not as you can tell if you simply looked at the article. It could easily be TOTALLY WRONG, but it ain't a typo. If your article got this much attention, and there was a wicked bad typo causing it, wouldn't you correct the typo? I would. Also the Ars Technica article is skeptical but admits the possibility and doesn't claim it's a typo at any point. The ars technica guy does interpret iBook/iBook G5 to mean both at once whereas the logical thing to me would be iBook (g4) then a switch to iBook G5 when apple is satisfied that the powerbook G5 has taken hold. Then again, maybe apple will never release another notebook. I won't know until it happens. :)

After all is said and done, I'm with you on waiting for WWDC, anyway I am waiting until Apple has a significant boost in Benchmarks scores before purchasing another PowerBook. My old Ti 500 is OK for work, but doing anything else I go back to my G5 desktop.

Brian
 
iBooks, Powerbooks, G4s, G5s, and all that jazz

adamjay said:
sorry but i just don't know why folks buy 12" Powerbooks anymore.
lets see.. 60GB HD is an extra $75 on an ibook 12". meaning for $1074 vs. $1599 you get the same ram, hd, screen, but lose 10% cpu power (big whoop - a G4 is a G4), audio input, and mini dvi.

$525 for 130mhz, mini dvi, and an audio input.
but i can get 1.25ghz for $499 !! :D
why does the 12" ibook exist again? anyone? :confused:

The 12" powerbook may seem like a stupid buy, but there are major differences which is in 3 main factors: CPU L1 and L2 cache, System Bus, and Graphics setup. While the iBook G4 runs with a 32kb L1 cache, the Powerbook G4 runs at 64kb cache. Because of the 2x of the bigger cache for the CPU, the G4 processor is able to work more efficiently, hence your applications will feel smoother than the ibook. Another signficance difference is the System Bus which the Powerbook 12" runs at 167mhz as opposed to the 133mhz. One more thing, although the Radeon Card and the Nvidia card ...seems comparable (kinda..), the 12" Powerbook uses 64MB VRAM as opposed to 32MB. With these three things, you will notice a large difference.

Why the differences? The communication between the CPU, GPU, and Devices. With a bigger L2, more data stands in line ready for the CPU to process. With a larger System Bus, more data can be sent throughout the system. GPU acts the same way as it has more memory or smaller memory detemining the overall speed of processing. Smaller L2, System Bus and smaller VRAM, will mean the CPU, GPU, and Devices will have to wait longer for information flowing from each other for processing. It's like a 2-lane highway compared to a 4-5 lane highway. The Chip itself may be strong, but the paths to get there will hinder the advantage of it's power. That means running one program or minimal processes might feel the same between two computers. But running many programs or processes will show a significant difference.

Now talking about the G5, the main difference we will see performance-wise will not be the Mhz and CPU itself but rather the board it's sitting in, the cache, and the graphics card. The problem with the G5 processor is it's heat. Not to mention, the hardworking GPU which may add to the heat which may cause some 3rd degree burns. Heat is also a problem in power usage (thats why people put batteries in the freezer). Now considering the iBooks Plastic, i'm sure that Apple will have the most watered down version of the G5 possible. What does this mean? Just like the time of the iBook G3 to G4 conversion, you will notice very little difference in performance between the ibook G4 and ibook G5. "Why? But it's 64-bit processing!" Well...64-bit processing for what 64-bit program? So that's no argument. The key is the L2 cache which will probably run at 256K which is half of the current PowerMac G5s. The Graphics will most likely sport a Go5200 or the Radeon 9600 allowing the full advantage of Tiger's CoreImage (i know they probably expanded the capabilities to lower graphic units, but my theory is that they have a watered down CoreImage engine for those machines). The system bus will probably run 400mhz or 500mhz, the bare minimum. The new iBooks G5 will be Apple's attempt to make the cheapest and coolest G5 possible. So expect an iBook G5 to be more of a mental thing when you go "man it's soo much faster".

Powerbook G5 will be Apple's attempt to make the most robust machine in little space. Little space can be an advantage because Heat can dissapate easier through the metal. So they have two options: Adding an L3 cache (like the Titanium G4's) with the same general specs as the iBook G5s (maybe faster system bus) with probably an NVIDIA Go6800; or matching the iMac G5's Specs as much as possible.

Shape changes? Because of this new relationship with ASUStek board designers and engineers, I totally think the new Powerbooks and iBooks will sport new shapes. Plus the new age of HD, as mentioned at MacWorld, the screens need to be wide. i expect a 12" and 15" Widescreen powerbook. Smaller size? Yup! They really need to take advantage of the GPU which handles lots of pixels, and they need to fight those small Dell 12" widescreens (which are really cool by the way). What about iBooks? Maybe the same thing. Widescreen 12" and 14" probably. Widescreens with higher resolutions. Which means a complete ditch from Samsung screens to LG bright and well defined screens.

Apple needs to do a running blitz with their computers since they are sensing major amounts of potential PC switchers since the explosion of consumers for the iPods. Not only that, changing from a 32-bit processor to 64-bit processor is not a gradual step, but complete change for the software market. So having the laptops jump is the only way for developers to get on the ball with spitting out 64-bit programs. Not the same as G3 to G4; major step!

Prediction: I'm so sure that i'm taking bets... The Powerbook G5s are going to come so soon and i know it'll be the same time as Tiger which is at Mac Expo WWDC. iBook G5s i expect September right after the "Back-to-School" sale when you go "man only 799 for an ibook G4???" Then get depressed later when the new iBooks come out.
 
rosalindavenue said:
HomesliceJ-- that's the best post I've ever read on a macrumors forum. I hope you post a lot, dude.
That posting probably took at least 30 minutes to type out. Too bad it cant be a sticky, but some points to be had. The PowerBook, since it does monitor spanning, is vital in business. A widescreen 12" LCD that is of a higher resolution is badly needed. 1280x960 would be adequate on the low end.
 
HomesliceJ said:
...

Prediction: I'm so sure that i'm taking bets... The Powerbook G5s are going to come so soon and i know it'll be the same time as Tiger which is at Mac Expo WWDC. iBook G5s i expect September right after the "Back-to-School" sale when you go "man only 799 for an ibook G4???" Then get depressed later when the new iBooks come out.

Fantastic post, good prediction... :)

Hey, HomesliceJ, welcome to the forums. Keep up the VERY good work...
 
...except for the "64-bit myth" part

HomesliceJ said:
Not only that, changing from a 32-bit processor to 64-bit processor is not a gradual step, but complete change for the software market. So having the laptops jump is the only way for developers to get on the ball with spitting out 64-bit programs.

More mythology about 64-bit here....

Did you know that Apple itself says
http://www.thinksecret.com/news/0412briefly2.html

Apple released a 36-page preliminary guide to developers Tuesday describing the 64-bit features in Mac OS X 10.4 and how developers can take advantage of them by implementing the API in their software.

Apple notes that for most developers, 64-bit functionality will have no impact on them, adding that most 32-bit applications will be better served remaining 32-bit.
...
Apple recommends that most consumer end-user applications remain 32-bit (for compatibility and because 64-bit is unnecessary), as well as games and A/V applications.

(Think Secret's report on an ADC 64-bit guide)

Did you also know that a 1 GiB SO-DIMM uses up to about 10 watts, so that to actually use 64-bits you'd need a laptop that was burning 80 watts just to power the 8 GiB of memory (as well as needing the space for eight SO-DIMMs)?

64-bit laptops are already here on the x86 side, and nothing earth-shaking has happened... They've been available for many years in the RISC arena (Alpha and SPARC).

So, the "rah rah" cheerleading for a 64-bit laptop is really misguided - most software will remain 32-bits even on the 64-bit system. This is Apple's recommendation, not just Aiden's opinion.

This is especially true since Apple's lame 64-bit support in 10.4 won't allow a GUI application to be 64-bit - the Cocoa and Carbon libraries are 32-bit only! Only command line apps can be 64-bit.... (see http://developer.apple.com/macosx/tiger/64bit.html)
 
As much as I'd love a G5 PowerBook, I just want to upgrade to something that's better than the current archaic line of PowerBooks. A little bit faster G4, a Radeon 9800, 7200 RPM HD, WUXGA LCD, and maybe even a 200mhz speed bumped FSB and I'd be a happy camper throwing money at the Apple Store. My 17" is beginning to show its age.
 
AidenShaw said:
More mythology about 64-bit here....

Did you know that Apple itself says

The question I have is NOT about the G5's 64-bitness but their optimized compilers. A long time ago in a thread far far away there was news about compilers for the G5 showing up to 200% increase in speed for some apps. If Apple does eventually start compiling their OS specifically for the G5 you might see a performance boost vs. sticking with the G4.
 
io_burn said:
io_powermac: Dual 2.5GHz PowerPC G5 - 4GB RAM, 500GB HD, GeForce 6800 Ultra DDL, AirPort Extreme, Bluetooth, 30" Cinema HD Display
io_powerbook: 1.5Ghz 17" PowerBook G4 - 2GB RAM, 128MB VRAM, 80GB 5400RPM HD
io_minis: Two 1.42Ghz Mac Mini G4s - 1GB RAM, 80GB HD, SuperDrive, Airport Extreme, BlueTooth (Ships 2/15!)
io_thinkpad: 2.10Ghz Thinkpad T42p - 2GB RAM, DVD-R, 802.11a/b/g, BlueTooth, Finger Print Scanner
io_ipods: 60GB iPod Photo, Silver iPod Mini, Two 1GB iPod Shuffles (On their way!)

Ok you have far too much money!!!
 
dodonutter said:
Ok you have far too much money!!!

You know you're just jealous.

'Sides, I could afford all that… if I didn't mind making significant sacrifices (pretty much no other luxuries in a given year or very few in two). How much are you willing to give up for your fandom?

~J
 
its absurd

i'm sure they are able to put a g5 into a pb about now or in a few month, but not for the ibook, would't make sence either, the ibook is upgradeable another 2 times i guess, from 1.2/1.33 to 1.33/1.42 and 1.42/1.5 g4, like they did it in the past, so it stays cheap, mobile and powerful enough and there should be a gap to the pro-tool powerbook

:D :D
 
They might as well come out with G5 iBooks and G5 PowerBooks at the same time. Would help their bottom line. Then they can go about crippling the video card and remove RAM slots on the iBook line.
 
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