Disastrous update of OneDrive coming for all macOS 12.3 users

[ingsings]

What would you do to stay away from any sort of trouble? I don't care what cloud service I use if my files are safely stored on the local drive so I can also back them up on an external one. Any file errors or corruption = I can't finish my thesis and I can't graduate.

I'm new school in that all my data is resident in the cloud in OneDrive (only ~150 GB though, not as much as you have) but old school in how I back it up. I have an inexpensive NAS drive with a 2 TB drive and once in a while I copy all my data to it. (I do a differential compare and copy using "Beyond Compare".)

I'm also old school enough that I actually have two NAS drives for backup, and one of them is kept off site in case my house burns down. Not a likely scenario, but it's been known to happen.

 

[ingsings]

will both have the same limitations with the files stored in a cache somewhere, we won't have direct access to folder via Finder. I am correct?

Having finished my migration, including ensuring everything is downloaded AND copied from the OneDrive cache to the OneDrive sync root, I can access all my files from Finder. Either at ~/OneDrive (which is a symlink the migration created), or directly at ~/Library/CloudStorage/OneDrive-Personal, or by clicking on the OneDrive location link in the Finder sidebar.

YMMV, my migration seems to have been more straightforward than other folks here.

 

[kingtj1971]

The backup situation is more ugly than that.

All files, both pinned and unpinned are in .ODContainer-OneDrive hidden folder And all files are listed as having their full size - even the cloud only that take zero size on disk.

What backup software (I have tried with Time Machine and with Arq) does is to backup everything (pinned and unpinned) with the backup of each file listed as having their full size, though the cloud only files take zero space in the backup location.

So when attempting to recover you need to look very carefully at which files actually have content (non-zero on disk size) and which do not.

With Time Machine (via Finder) you can see both the file size and size on disk of each file using Get Info. That will be very messy until you can trust that whole pinned folders are truly downloaded - you can check this via Get Info on the folder which should show folder size being the same as the "on disk" size.

With Arq you can only see the full size of each file folder, so can't tell if it is really in the backup until you attempt a restore and inspect the restored files. Other backup software may be similar.

FWIW? After reading the Microsoft blog entry detailing these new OneDrive for Mac changes, it sounds like they're saying that .ODContainer-OneDrive hidden folder can NOT be counted on to retain copies of any unpinned files. They may or may not be in there -- but they're using it as sort of a temporary cache space for them as OneDrive calls for it.

 

[VictorTango777]

As explained on my reply to you on the MS blog, I think this is very unlikely and probably just incorrect.

Apple iCloud allows for all files to be stored locally by deselecting the “optimise Mac storage” option.
I know that Dropbox are having some minor problems with 12.3 but I have not heard of any plan to force Smart Sync on users.

Apple might well have changed the way file synchronisation works, but they are not mandating Files On Demand functionality.
OneDrive could have made their “new experience” much better simply by pinning all files by default, until and unless the user actively decides to unpin them.
In other words, until the user decides to use Files On Demand.

The backlash they are currently experiencing might well force them to do just that in a future version.

I'm curious if Mac users have seen how OneDrive for Windows is implemented. This is the problem with people knowing only one operating system - they think that just because something is screwed up on one OS, all other OS'es must be the same way. In the OneDrive for Windows settings, there is a checkbox that enables or disables Files On Demand.

The same section in OneDrive for Mac:

I am less interested in what people think the default setting should be, than having an easy and sensible way to change it. But before assigning blame to either Apple or Microsoft, we should remember:

The recent Apple iCloud issue which caused third party developers to be blamed for applications not syncing properly:

Developers Unhappy With Bug Causing iCloud Unreliability

A number of developers are upset with an increasingly problematic iCloud server issue that is causing some apps that have implemented iCloud support...

www.macrumors.com

Mobile carriers accused of blocking iCloud Private Relay when they did not block it:

Apple Clarifies iCloud Private Relay Wording in iOS 15.3 to Prevent Confusion Over Carrier Support

In today's iOS 15.3 beta, Apple has updated the wording that people see when iCloud Private Relay is disabled for a cellular or WiFi network,...

www.macrumors.com

Is there something in Apple's latest updates that prevents Microsoft from giving Mac users a simple checkbox for Files On Demand in the OneDrive preferences?

 

[Wando64]

Is there something in Apple's latest updates that prevents Microsoft from giving Mac users a simple checkbox for Files On Demand in the OneDrive preferences?

Probably not, since all other cloud services allows it.

 

[Phwoar]

In a legal sense: this should be ringing alarm bells.

I did not click on any new EULA.

A massive foreign corporation just deleted my original files off my Apple MacBook. Literally just deleted them without warning.

And that corporation retains the only copy on their paid server.

They had absolutely no right, zero right, no EULA right either, to reach in and automatically delete my original files on my hard drive without warning.

The agreed service being paid for was for a cloud service to mirror original files and file architecture from my hard drive.

The agreed service WAS NOT for my hard drive to be the mirror, and the originals to be stored off site.

There is a big difference. And what they have just done, without a change in the terms and conditions, is extremely likely to be illegal.

 

[saudor]

Is there something in Apple's latest updates that prevents Microsoft from giving Mac users a simple checkbox for Files On Demand in the OneDrive preferences?

Historically speaking, the brains of apple users are expected to be limited in capacity. Microsoft execs probably assume that including such a checkbox would cause the brains of most apple users to implode.

Remember, stove jeebs could not trust us with two button mice for the longest time and iphone 4 signal issues were simply because we weren't holding our phones right

 

[Phwoar]

The more I think about it, there's possibly a way for users to step around this stupid setup.

And that could be:

• Create a mirrored folder within the Hard Drive.

More detail:

• Perhaps find an application that does this:
  • Anything in Folder A on the Hard Drive is automatically mirrored (both directions) to Folder B on the same Hard Drive, where Folder B is the "OneDrive" folder.
• Then Microsoft can do its forced "Files on Demand" to its heart's content, ensuring no implementation of "Always Keep on this Device".

Operationally:

• Folder A = (for example) 1 GB of locally stored files with Quicklook and indexing working as normal, but also mirrored locally (both directions) to:
• Folder B = OneDrive folder (0 GB because Microsoft has "Files on Demand" forced "on").

User simply uses Folder A, and now Folder A will be Time Machine compatible.



👉What is a good MacOS application that can permanently "watch" a folder and "mirror changes" (back and forward) to another folder?


EDIT:
A "watch and mirror" app I just tried only succeeded to copy the "0kb" files that are hosted in the OneDrive folder.

Back to square one.

 

[EyeKhan]

Running OneDrive on both Intel and Apple silicone.
It appears that with Monterey 12.2, OneDrive client stopped syncing locally on all computers.

Always keep on this device doesn't work on any of the Macs I've tried. Windows OneDrive clients have no issues keeping local copies.

Tried resetting OneDrive where it wiped everything out within the local OneDrive for Mac environment but still no success setting and keeping files local with Always Keep on This Device.

Anyone else run into this that managed to get Always Keep to actually work when it did not initially?

 

[svenmany]

Running OneDrive on both Intel and Apple silicone.
It appears that with Monterey 12.2, OneDrive client stopped syncing locally on all computers.

Always keep on this device doesn't work on any of the Macs I've tried. Windows OneDrive clients have no issues keeping local copies.

Tried resetting OneDrive where it wiped everything out within the local OneDrive for Mac environment but still no success setting and keeping files local with Always Keep on This Device.

Anyone else run into this that managed to get Always Keep to actually work when it did not initially?

So far it's working for me. Though, the way I check that a file has been downloaded is by using the terminal. In Finder there's often a cloud with a down arrow that indicates the a file needs to be downloaded even when the file has already been downloaded. I think that icon does eventually go away.

 

[gilby101]

The more I think about it, there's possibly a way for users to step around this stupid setup.

And that could be:

• Create a mirrored folder within the Hard Drive.

More detail:

• Perhaps find an application that does this:
  • Anything in Folder A on the Hard Drive is automatically mirrored (both directions) to Folder B on the same Hard Drive, where Folder B is the "OneDrive" folder.
• Then Microsoft can do its forced "Files on Demand" to its heart's content, ensuring no implementation of "Always Keep on this Device".

Operationally:

• Folder A = (for example) 1 GB of locally stored files with Quicklook and indexing working as normal, but also mirrored locally (both directions) to:
• Folder B = OneDrive folder (0 GB because Microsoft has "Files on Demand" forced "on").

User simply uses Folder A, and now Folder A will be Time Machine compatible.

No, when you do your sync from A to B, B will consume 1GB. It will only consume 0GB if you then go in and "free up space".

For 1GB why bother. Just use "always keep on this device" and access files directly in B (one drive). Quicklook, indexing and TM backup will work as expected.

And if your 1GB was just a small number, what about 500GB (half a OneDrive)? Then you will consume 500GB on your boot disk as you copy stuff from A to B even if some of that space gets freed up automatically a bit later.

Either use OneDrive as it now is, or don't use it.

 

[gilby101]

So far it's working for me. Though, the way I check that a file has been downloaded is by using the terminal. In Finder there's often a cloud with a down arrow that indicates the a file needs to be downloaded even when the file has already been downloaded. I think that icon does eventually go away.

The cloud icon only goes away when it has been downloaded. I don't know what terminal command you are using, but an `ls` reports the full size of the file - not the size on disk.

But you can force a download of a pinned or unpinned folder with cp -RX "/Users/<user>/Library/CloudStorage/OneDrive-Personal/<folder>" /dev/null
That does assume that you have space on your system/boot disk for the whole folder.

 

[southerndoc]

I got the dreaded update today. I posted this in the other thread.

To always sync files, show hidden files and then go to username/Library/CloudStorage and you'll see your OneDrive icon. Right click it and select "always keep on this device."

That will sync anything in your OneDrive and always keep a local copy on your Mac.

 

[svenmany]

The cloud icon only goes away when it has been downloaded. I don't know what terminal command you are using, but an `ls` reports the full size of the file - not the size on disk.

But you can force a download of a pinned or unpinned folder with cp -RX "/Users/<user>/Library/CloudStorage/OneDrive-Personal/<folder>" /dev/null
That does assume that you have space on your system/boot disk for the whole folder.

Thanks for that.

I think the full file was on my disk and the cloud was still there. I just did "ls -l" and saw a reasonably large size. Perhaps I'm confused. Are you suggesting that "ls" can actually get the size of the file without it having been downloaded to my computer?

<edit> Just tested and it does show the size even when not downloaded. (that's actually pretty nice)

I just ran a quick experiment where I put a 12K word document into a nested OneDrive folder on my Windows machine. It quickly showed up in the Finder with the two icons overlapping each other (the cloud and the pinned symbol); that's the first time I've seen that bug. The file showed a size of 12K in zsh (in case which shell I'm using matters).

I then opened the file in Word and viewed its contents. The file still showed as 12K both in the shell and Finder. Also, in Finder, the visual bug fixed itself and the cloud moved to the right. The hover presented over the cloud said "Downloading". Clearly a bug. I went ahead and made a change to the document and saved it; the cloud continued to display (with an itty, bitty exclamation point in it) and the hover changed to "Error".

The cloud means very little to me given how many bugs I've experienced with it.

 

[daniel.dawson.397]

I was not aware that this update was coming, but a few weeks ago I did notice a OneDrive update and that all files had reverted to being in the cloud (this thread explains that). I've not had any issues so far, but understand the concerns raised here. For those concerned about TimeMachine backup, cloud-syncing may be a good alternative for you, which connects directly to OneDrive with your login details and syncs from there. I personally use Synology CloudSync which is included with Synology NAS products. I just checked my synched OneDrive folder on my NAS and it has all of my files including the recently edited ones.

 

[svenmany]

Thanks for that.

I think the full file was on my disk and the cloud was still there. I just did "ls -l" and saw a reasonably large size. Perhaps I'm confused. Are you suggesting that "ls" can actually get the size of the file without it having been downloaded to my computer?

<edit> Just tested and it does show the size even when not downloaded. (that's actually pretty nice)

I just ran a quick experiment where I put a 12K word document into a nested OneDrive folder on my Windows machine. It quickly showed up in the Finder with the two icons overlapping each other (the cloud and the pinned symbol); that's the first time I've seen that bug. The file showed a size of 12K in zsh (in case which shell I'm using matters).

I then opened the file in Word and viewed its contents. The file still showed as 12K both in the shell and Finder. Also, in Finder, the visual bug fixed itself and the cloud moved to the right. The hover presented over the cloud said "Downloading". Clearly a bug. I went ahead and made a change to the document and saved it; the cloud continued to display (with an itty, bitty exclamation point in it) and the hover changed to "Error".

The cloud means very little to me given how many bugs I've experienced with it.

It took a while. Now the exclamation point is gone from the cloud, but the cloud is still there and the hover reports "Downloading". I still have the document open in Word. Truly magical.

<edit>

I opened the document on my Windows machine to see that the edits were there. After doing that, the cloud finally disappeared from my Mac.

 

[svenmany]

Well, I think I'm going to have to give up on OneDrive. I had thought that marking the top-level folder "Always Keep on This Device" would ensure that everything inside that folder would be always present on my disk. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to cause a file to be downloaded if it was uploaded on a different machine.

I'm not the only one working on my documents and I don't always use the same machine to work on them. I can no longer count on my Mac to have every file so that Time Machine can back them up.

On the second day after receiving the update, I can finally conclude that this is a "Disastrous update of OneDrive".

 

[ingsings]

Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to cause a file to be downloaded if it was uploaded on a different machine.

I can’t explain why this does not work for you. But FWIW I have 4 computers (two macOS, two Windows 10) syncing using OneDrive, and this works fine for me. All four OSes are running the latest patch levels.

 

[gilby101]

Are you suggesting that "ls" can actually get the size of the file without it having been downloaded to my computer?

The file system (APFS plus the OneDrive file provider) knows both the size of the file and the size on disk. When "ls" asks the file system, it is given the file's true size in bytes, not the space occupied on the disk. You can see this in a Finder Get Info where the size on disk is zero for a file in the cloud only.

I am sure this distinction would extend to other files on APFS, where the on disk size can be less than the size in bytes. For example, APFS does this magic for large sparse files.

It took a while. Now the exclamation point is gone from the cloud, but the cloud is still there and the hover reports "Downloading". I still have the document open in Word. Truly magical.

Whilst the badges sometimes overlap (Apple Finder bug), I think the meaning can be interpreted. The overlap is most annoying for shared folders. I haven't seen the exclamation point, but I have not attempted to open a file from 2 computers.

There is definitely some magic going on. And for some use cases (e.g. sharing and editing documents) it will be great.

 

[gilby101]

Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to cause a file to be downloaded if it was uploaded on a different machine.

I have seen this too and I assume that is intended functionality with the file to be downloaded when next opened and then kept locally. And that, of course, messes up your backup. You can force the download with a cp command (8 posts up from this), but that is just hacking the system.

 

[svenmany]

I can’t explain why this does not work for you. But FWIW I have 4 computers (two macOS, two Windows 10) syncing using OneDrive, and this works fine for me. All four OSes are running the latest patch levels.

Just two machines here, 1 Mac (12.2) and 1 Windows (10 up to date). My Mac is an Intel MacBook Pro from 2018.

That's what I see for a file I upload on Windows a while ago. Get Info in Finder shows 0 bytes on disk.

This is one of those situations that the product offering really has to be bullet proof.

 

[svenmany]

I haven't seen the exclamation point, but I have not attempted to open a file from 2 computers.

I guess if the exclamation point indicated some sort of editing conflict that would be useful. But, the file was added on Windows just by dragging it into the folder. I did nothing more than that. The exclamation point indicated some error trying to work with the file on the Mac. Up to that point I'd never edited it on the Windows machine.

I did eventually edit the file on Windows, just to check that I could see the changes that were made on the Mac. That activity cleared up the error on the Mac.

I claim, though I can't prove, that I'm a competent user. Even if it works for most people, the fact that I'm experiencing a bunch of bugs is pretty damning. It will be hard to figure out if Apple or Microsoft is to blame. So far I haven't encountered a bug that would cause data loss. But, if I had a large amount of critical data on OneDrive, I'd be in a bit of a panic.

Unfortunately, I do have a large amount of critical data on Dropbox; I hope their looming changes work better.

On an unrelated note, let me second @Phwoar's point about the legality of this update. If I had looked (and known what to look for), I would have discovered all my data missing from my computer when I logged in this morning. Is that right? Is Microsoft even allowed to do that to my data?

Imagine that someone hadn't realized their data was gone (or even understood the nature of the update that Microsoft pushed out) and took their computer to a place with no internet. That person wouldn't have access to the data that was on their computer the day before. This seems outrageous. Don't tons of people use OneDrive? It's hard to imagine that no financial damage was caused by this rollout.

 

[gilby101]

I claim, though I can't prove, that I'm a competent user. Even if it works for most people, the fact that I'm experiencing a bunch of bugs is pretty damning. It will be hard to figure out if Apple or Microsoft is to blame. So far I haven't encountered a bug that would cause data loss. But, if I had a large amount of critical data on OneDrive, I'd be in a bit of a panic.

I am coming to think that this is working as intended and that any bugs (overlapping badges) are minor. But, I do agree, that if I had critical data on OneDrive, I should be worried.

Just two machines here, 1 Mac (12.2) and 1 Windows (10 up to date). My Mac is an Intel MacBook Pro from 2018.

That's what I see for a file I upload on Windows a while ago. Get Info in Finder shows 0 bytes on disk.

I think that is intended behaviour, the file will not be copied to the "OneDrive" folder until needed. But, my testing, suggests that it will be downloaded to the cache (either the hidden .ODContainer-OneDrive folder on your external disk or ~/Library/Group Containers/UBF8T346G9.OneDriveSyncClientSuite/OneDrive.noindex/OneDrive folder) so that it is ready for use. Is it in your cache with a real on disk size?

 

[fredwu]

Evidently there is a workaround to bring back the offline behaviour. See this comment:

Inside the new Files On-Demand Experience on macOS

Take an inside look into the new Files On-Demand experience that's rolling out right now for macOS 12.1 or later. Revamped Files On-Demand experience for..

techcommunity.microsoft.com

Basically, you need to:

1. Choose "Always keep on this device" on your top level folders
2. Click on the cloud icon on your top level folders
3. Lots and lots of patience as both of these steps can't be done in batch if you have large amount of folders and files, but if you do it slowly you'll eventually get all the files truly available offline.

Poor effort from Microsoft, but at least this workaround would do for now.

 

[ingsings]

Evidently there is a workaround to bring back the offline behaviour. See this comment:

Inside the new Files On-Demand Experience on macOS

Take an inside look into the new Files On-Demand experience that's rolling out right now for macOS 12.1 or later. Revamped Files On-Demand experience for..

techcommunity.microsoft.com

I implemented that workaround a couple of days ago, and it worked (for me, YMMV).