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Have people here heard about PlayStation Vue? So far, it's only in a few cities but they are charging $49.99 for 50 channels (but no ABC, ESPN or Disney stuff). $59.99 for package with more sports. $69.99 for more niche channels. Cloud-based dvr that lets you view back episodes of that show that have occurred in the last 28 days.

Is that the yardstick for the next AppleTV?

http://www.theverge.com/2015/3/18/8237799/sony-playstation-vue-tv-streaming-launch

Microsoft is also joining in with this:

https://www.yahoo.com/tech/s/xbox-one-become-every-cord-cutter-dream-console-194502291.html

Which I think is way too expensive for just being an addon to an OTA antenna. $80 or $60 for that??
 
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Sling is looking real good to me. I like the $20 a month range. And I like the channels offered. I wish Apple could do something similar so I don't have to have two devices. OR I wish apple could have a Sling channel. That would be great.
 
As soon as I read 'bundle' into the story, Apple lost me. I've been waiting for true a la carte for years, and I really thought maybe Apple would be the company with the clout to bring it to reality. I've got great service through Cynergy-metronet, and it doesn't sound like there's any reason to consider moving away from that at this point.
 
The cable companies are totally going to pull what the cell companies did. It used to be we got free data but paid for minutes. The cable companies will just swap their prices so the internet cost subsidizes the cable somewhat, while keeping apple and the others out. In the end, none of this will make a difference. Someone is still going to get paid one way or the other.

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As soon as I read 'bundle' into the story, Apple lost me. I've been waiting for true a la carte for years, and I really thought maybe Apple would be the company with the clout to bring it to reality. I've got great service through Cynergy-metronet, and it doesn't sound like there's any reason to consider moving away from that at this point.

Why apple? Hell, Microsoft would probably have more clout. Way more Xbox units in houses than apple TVs.
 
The Lego Movie is great, but it's Warner Bros. not Disney.
It's also better than anything Disney has released since the mid 90's.

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Sling is looking real good to me. I like the $20 a month range. And I like the channels offered. I wish Apple could do something similar so I don't have to have two devices. OR I wish apple could have a Sling channel. That would be great.

Sling is very cool, but it suffers from the same issue every streaming service has: little support for live local sports.
 
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Why apple? Hell, Microsoft would probably have more clout. Way more Xbox units in houses than apple TVs.

Because Apple has had a bigger impact in terms of shaping the electronic world in the last 10 years via iOS. In recent years they have a reputation of a midas touch in the entertainment world.
 
Does anyone actually watch "channels" anymore?

Personally, I just watch content. I really have no interest in live, streaming TV that forces you to watch certain content at certain times of the day. That's a medium that only made sense in the days of limited broadcast spectrum. It's nonsense when it comes to IP-based delivery.

The only time "channels" make sense is for sports. But even then, I'd prefer to just choose the game I want to watch, rather than trying to work out whether it's on "channel one" or "channel two", then having it cut off when it goes into overtime because a game deemed more important is starting.

Just license the content from Disney and scrap the whole "channel" idea. Channels made sense in the 1950s and 60s. They're a technological dead-end now.

Yes everyone still watches channels. That's the whole point of the discussion. You're only permitted to watch select content because they let you. Glad you've cut the cord, but if we all cut the cord tomorrow, what do you think would happen to the cost of your internet, which is owned mostly by the same companies that own TV channels.

It's gonna be a long road, but in the end don't expect to get more for less. Possibly better for the same.
 
Because Apple has had a bigger impact in terms of shaping the electronic world in the last 10 years via iOS. In recent years they have a reputation of a midas touch in the entertainment world.
These TV conglomerates aren't going to buy the hands that feed them before the table is set. Right now, apple has no table. The apple tv has been a failure thus far, at least in apples view. It's getting beat out by pretty much every other option on the market.
 
Arguing? Debate sounds more professional, MacRumors. But get those clicks!

Yes somehow the more accurate headline "Routine business negotiation involves two parties with somewhat competing interests taking different positions on some points and attempting to come to mutually acceptable resolution" wouldn't generate as many clicks.
 
Yes everyone still watches channels. That's the whole point of the discussion. You're only permitted to watch select content because they let you. Glad you've cut the cord, but if we all cut the cord tomorrow, what do you think would happen to the cost of your internet, which is owned mostly by the same companies that own TV channels.

It's gonna be a long road, but in the end don't expect to get more for less. Possibly better for the same.

Who said we want more for less? The problem is there is too much crap bundled with cable. Let us choose what we want. If we want all premium content without advertising, of course it will cost more.

As for internet, that is another debate. Pretty much every developed country ensures that the "last mile" must be owned and operated by a wholesale provider who allows access to all retailers on a non-discriminatory basis. The US is about a decade behind the rest of the world in that regard, and will eventually have to unbundle the last mile, or lag behind. Regional cable monopolies simply aren't allowed to exist in more developed nations.
 
Does anyone actually watch "channels" anymore?

Yes. I'd say our TV is on one of these 4 channels 85 to 90% of each day:

1. HGTV
2. Cooking Channel
3. CNBC
4. CNN or similiar

There are several programs on EACH of those channels that are highly liked by different people in our home.

ADD to those.... specific content that can be found on a variety of channels. This is where Netflix / Hulu works best. Or, going directly to the ABC (etc) website.
 
Good luck with that

We have plenty of "cable consolidators" already. Since I don't watch sports, if it must include ESPN, then I won't buy it - I shouldn't have to pay an extra $10. Sports fans should be able to subscribe to what they want - ESPN or whatnot, and shouldn't be excluded just because I'm not interested. Lets see some competition, not more of the same.

Any streaming subscription is going to contain things you don't care about while most of the content is controlled by a small number of companies. The option right now is getting cable companies out of the business of TV and eroding the classic bundling subscription model not a wholesale revolution. Frankly, if Apple TV can do just those two things, their subscription model will be worth it.

Immediately you can get HBO without basic cable in this model which is already a significant difference. As is the ability to subscribe and unsubscribe without fighting some customer retention agent.
 
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Because Apple has had a bigger impact in terms of shaping the electronic world in the last 10 years via iOS. In recent years they have a reputation of a midas touch in the entertainment world.

Apple turned into an 800 pound guerrilla in the music distribution world and there's no way the TV networks and movie studios wanted to let Apple get that kind of power over them. Until music streaming became popular no one could hold a candle to iTMS when it came to music, but Apple hasn't had nearly the same impact in the movie/tv realm because of competition from Netflix, Hulu, Amazon, Epix, PSN, XBL, etc.,. When :apple:TV first came out it gave people a simple way to get streaming content onto their TV, but now everything from video game consoles to Blu-ray players to a variety of set top boxes to the TVs themselves can easily stream content. The hardware and the services caught up to Apple and passed right by them with regards to streaming video content.
 
The whole idea of channels is a notion based on broadcast TV.

So is Apple's service basically going to be a skinnied down version of cable/satellite? Why can't someone come up with a viable model where people can choose what content they want? I watch Food Network and Cooking Channel a lot. But I know plenty of others who could care less about those two channels. Let people curate the channel lineup they want.

Yes, on day one. What many people are hoping to get is some sort of Apple TV that provides all content on all networks for some subscription price that is cheaper than buying a moderate amount of individual content. When the big content companies have 50 channels to push and stockholders that want return on investment that is a tough sell. So any contract for subscription streaming is going to contain some filler and it won't be optional.

There is a real possibility that in this round we can separate the content from the pipe and that isn't a small thing. After that I believe the next thing will be channel culling. Lots of channels that were profitable under the cable model will cease to exist. Once that model is broken, then maybe we can start picking and choosing individual channels.
 
Hopefully all of these things are just false rumours leaked by Apple, and what Apple actually release ends up being good.

Although I doubt it.
 
Apple wants to break up the cable company with these deals. But all they are doing is moving the cable company over the top. Packaged deals are what we need to get away from. Apple really doesn't have any leverage to get ala-carte. If the FCC can't get it done I don't see Apple doing it. The only way Apple wins is if they can grab the NFL. Until they pull in live sports deals for a decent price this whole thing will fail before it even launches. Sports is is what is keeping cable alive and they know it.

Everyone complains about paying for ESPN and rightly so. But there are enough people watching it to give them leverage to over charge. Until enough people cut the cord and cable companies see their profits plummet we won't see any changes in these carriage deals. Apple picking up that model won't bring change. Just passing the buck of how we receive those channels.
 
Tiny MacBooks, shiny watches and Disney... can't innovate any more my ass!

*sobs*
 
Disney is pushing Apple to include most of its channel offerings, while Apple wants to offer fewer channels in an effort to keep prices lower.

When the headline said they were arguing, I assumed Apple wanted lots of content, but Disney didn't want to give much away.

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Also, there seems to be two big problems with TV at the moment.

On demand is not all there: I can't watch Family Guy on BBC iPlayer, despite BBC being allowed to broadcast Family Guy, and my ability to record it with a set top box. Plus, it's much easier to watch on Demand on a non-TV device. Though obviously Apple TV and others solve the second half of that.

TV is trapped in my TV set: If broadcast TV is to continue (and BBC, Sky, etc aren't going to all turn into Netflix-like services) it's very difficult to watch them on a laptop or tablet. Channel 4 being the acceptation, here in the UK.

Solve the divide between my TV set and my other devices, encourage content providers to make 100% of their output available on-demand, create a compelling and fun UI, and you have a product I'll buy in a heartbeat.
 
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Argue, then go play. :apple:

If users only subscribed to Netflix, they would see all seasons of Family guy on there, and probably allot of other stuff most users are wondering about...

TV networks will be whine like HBO is, but will have no choice, since piracy and the lost cause of money will get to them pretty quickly...

There's a reason why HBO decoded to ofter streaming non-cable service,, I dunno what that reason is, but it's it defiantly not to make it more accessible...... people can already do that with a cable subscription.

And most others like Disney will have to do the same, weather they like it or not. otherwise i'll be just loosing money more by down-loaders...

Take your pick....... do u wanna loose allot due to piracy, or a little by streaming ?
 
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I think I may never see the day when we'll be able to pick and choose each channel we want in our package. That would be great, although I guess because stock holder value must be paramount in any decision by any public company, niche channels might go away quickly so that we'd be left with the Kardashians, Real Housewives, Sports, some older movies, and some maybe some decent original programming on some of the premium channels. Ok, maybe lots of talk shows, game shows, too.

Ugh. Shareholders and catering to them. That's caused more problems over the last twenty years than anything else. It's cost us jobs, benefits, wages, and in this case.... Effecient Program content delivery systems.

Do I own some stocks? Yes. Would I forego a few percent in gains to lower the prices of stuff like TV delivery and get jobs back here? Instantly. Sadly, many of the big dawgs won't.

Apple wants to break up the cable company with these deals. But all they are doing is moving the cable company over the top. Packaged deals are what we need to get away from. Apple really doesn't have any leverage to get ala-carte. If the FCC can't get it done I don't see Apple doing it. The only way Apple wins is if they can grab the NFL. Until they pull in live sports deals for a decent price this whole thing will fail before it even launches. Sports is is what is keeping cable alive and they know it.

Everyone complains about paying for ESPN and rightly so. But there are enough people watching it to give them leverage to over charge. Until enough people cut the cord and cable companies see their profits plummet we won't see any changes in these carriage deals. Apple picking up that model won't bring change. Just passing the buck of how we receive those channels.

Yep, you got it. Live sports are the ONLY thing keeping cable and sat companies afloat. Unless teams launch their own specific networks, like the Yankees have, buying games or content straight from teams or leagues will be hard to fathom. I personally have lost most of my interest in the NFL and MLB. I only watch playoff hockey and basketball and a decent amount of that I can watch through my rooftop antenna. Same for football if I care enough about the game that's on.

It is absurd though that non sports fans basically eat the cost of stupid ESPN just to appease the heroin-addict sports fans. I mean... Why shouldn't ESPN lovers pay up for it? This is what's ruined the current cable delivery model. Making people buy stuff they don't want and charging them a lot for it.

It's like walking into a furniture store and the sales guy telling you that in order to buy that end table you really want, you have to chip in for a leather couch that some OTHER customers will have in their home. It's redonkulous. Enough!
 
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Both already exist.

Apple already has the iTunes store in which people can choose commercial-free shows and has for years now. Problem: we don't want to pay for that; we want it dirt cheap.

DirecTV/Dish/others have services where you can hide all of the "useless" channels you don't want and only display the ones you do want in a "Favs" guide. This way the subsidy dollars made from commercials (including most of that subsidy made from commercials running on channels we never watch or while we sleep) keep contributing to the pot. Problem: we instead have this delusion that an Apple can plug in, offer us just the channels or shows we want for for a fraction of what we pay now. Nobody else- Apple included- is interested in turning that delusion into reality; they all want to make MORE money, not less in any "new model".

I'll guess that neither of those would be what you want and I'll further guess that what you want is closer to the usually-spun dream of "everything I want, commercial-free, for a tiny fraction of what I pay now". Problem: we're not going to get that.

If there's ever some kind of al-a-carte option other than what we have now in iTunes, I fully expect the math to work that we'll get our 10 favorite channels (or shows) for about 30% MORE than we can our 10 favorite channels + 190 channels "we never watch." And then we'll probably be clamoring for some kind of bundling with discounts and subsidies to try to get back to how it "used to be."

This is a very well written and thought out argument. However, I would like to propose an alternative. I cut the cable years ago. I pay for internet service to the cable company (something I hate to do since they suck so much - I would pay more for a better service - but I digress). I currently pay for netflix that gives me most of the historical content that I want to watch. I then pay Apple when I want to watch something more current that is available through itunes. I also have a digital antenna to get live TV for news and the ocasional sports game.

My approach cost me on average about $20 per month ($8 for Netflix and 2 or 3 movies through iTunes). For me I might pay a few extra dollars to get the local channels through ATV to make the quality of the feed more consistent, but that's about it.

I don't watch hours of conent every month so any kind of bundle just won't work for my use case. Even the HBO deal seems off when it cost more than netflix or hulu. It really should be more about the content than the channel. HBO could partner with Netflix or Hulu and probably reach a wider audience. Netflix/Hulu would probably add a dollar to those that want access to the additional content and that would be about it.

So in summary, my approach would be to keep the aggregator model of Hulu/Netflix for the older content at a low cost ($9.99 would be the max) and then a la cart content through itunes newer content. A small additional fee for live streams for those that want it would also make sense.

For those that spend a lot of time in front of a TV watching content (go out and get some exercise) this model could be expensive if they are watching current content as you have said. Maybe bundles work for them. But for folks like me that only watch current content on ocassion, the aggregator + a la cart is a way better model.
 
These TV conglomerates aren't going to buy the hands that feed them before the table is set. Right now, apple has no table. The apple tv has been a failure thus far, at least in apples view. It's getting beat out by pretty much every other option on the market.

I don't think this is true. Seems I've seen stats that show Apple TV is one of the most widely used. Even HBO states that over 50% use of HBO Go is through Apple TV.

This is not to say it's time Apple put some real value behind Apple TV... it's lagging to the competitors and needs a serious update. Which I'm hoping for.
 
Apple wants to break up the cable company with these deals. But all they are doing is moving the cable company over the top. Packaged deals are what we need to get away from. Apple really doesn't have any leverage to get ala-carte. If the FCC can't get it done I don't see Apple doing it. The only way Apple wins is if they can grab the NFL. Until they pull in live sports deals for a decent price this whole thing will fail before it even launches. Sports is is what is keeping cable alive and they know it.

Everyone complains about paying for ESPN and rightly so. But there are enough people watching it to give them leverage to over charge. Until enough people cut the cord and cable companies see their profits plummet we won't see any changes in these carriage deals. Apple picking up that model won't bring change. Just passing the buck of how we receive those channels.

Exactly. Nothing I've heard so far makes me interested in a new TV. I'd probably still get one because I have an old model but I wouldn't give up my DirecTV.

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When the headline said they were arguing, I assumed Apple wanted lots of content, but Disney didn't want to give much away.

----------

Also, there seems to be two big problems with TV at the moment.

On demand is not all there: I can't watch Family Guy on BBC iPlayer, despite BBC being allowed to broadcast Family Guy, and my ability to record it with a set top box. Plus, it's much easier to watch on Demand on a non-TV device. Though obviously Apple TV and others solve the second half of that.

TV is trapped in my TV set: If broadcast TV is to continue (and BBC, Sky, etc aren't going to all turn into Netflix-like services) it's very difficult to watch them on a laptop or tablet. Channel 4 being the acceptation, here in the UK.

Solve the divide between my TV set and my other devices, encourage content providers to make 100% of their output available on-demand, create a compelling and fun UI, and you have a product I'll buy in a heartbeat.

What annoys me is my DirecTV app allows me to watch some channels live outside my house but most aren't available. Since I'm paying for this service I should be able to watch it wherever I want, like at the gym for instance. I know DirecTV doesn't have control over that but it's still annoying.
 
This is a very well written and thought out argument. However, I would like to propose an alternative. I cut the cable years ago. I pay for internet service to the cable company (something I hate to do since they suck so much - I would pay more for a better service - but I digress). I currently pay for netflix that gives me most of the historical content that I want to watch. I then pay Apple when I want to watch something more current that is available through itunes. I also have a digital antenna to get live TV for news and the ocasional sports game.

My approach cost me on average about $20 per month ($8 for Netflix and 2 or 3 movies through iTunes). For me I might pay a few extra dollars to get the local channels through ATV to make the quality of the feed more consistent, but that's about it.

I don't watch hours of conent every month so any kind of bundle just won't work for my use case. Even the HBO deal seems off when it cost more than netflix or hulu. It really should be more about the content than the channel. HBO could partner with Netflix or Hulu and probably reach a wider audience. Netflix/Hulu would probably add a dollar to those that want access to the additional content and that would be about it.

So in summary, my approach would be to keep the aggregator model of Hulu/Netflix for the older content at a low cost ($9.99 would be the max) and then a la cart content through itunes newer content. A small additional fee for live streams for those that want it would also make sense.

For those that spend a lot of time in front of a TV watching content (go out and get some exercise) this model could be expensive if they are watching current content as you have said. Maybe bundles work for them. But for folks like me that only watch current content on ocassion, the aggregator + a la cart is a way better model.

That's fine but again, it's an individual experience/view/situation that won't work in a masses adoption. It works for you because you are fine with the compromises vs. a cableTV/Satt subscription. Not everyone will be satisfied with "most of the historical content I want to watch" so that they too can get most of what they want via Netflix at $8. For example, they'll want live sports. And/or they'll want to be able to talk about brand new original programming they saw last night on mainstream cable channels that is not going to be appear on Netflix for days or months if ever (you'll be locked out of that conversation). Getting to talk about the NCAA basketball tournament in May because of delays for cheaper distribution options almost misses the entire point of "March Madness". I doubt we'd ever get to hear anyone pumped about "May Madness" (broadcast delayed March Madness for lower-cost distribution channels).

Perhaps an extreme analogy: homeless guy pays $0 to the greedy man. Because he:
-can use the light of the sun, he doesn't need to pay the electric company.
-can use rain and public restrooms, he doesn't need the water bill,
-can find somewhat insulated crevices/caves or public shelter when he needs to be warmer, he doesn't need a home or apartment,
-can get by wearing the same clothes every day without failing some kind of social expectations, he doesn't need a wardrobe,
-doesn't have a job or other local travel responsibilities, he doesn't need a car,
-doesn't own a house or car or possessions, he doesn't need home & car insurance,
-can get enough (tax free) income begging for it (and through public shelters), he can get enough food to stay alive
Etc.

So homeless guy through choices & personal, quality-of-life sacrifices (and sometimes just bad luck), can stick it to the greedy Elec company, greedy Water company, greedy Landlords or Banks, greedy Clothing retailers, greedy Car Dealerships, greedy Insurance companies, greedy IRS and greedy Food companies by living the homeless life. If there was a "LifeRumors.com" and he could post to it, he could get on there, gripe about any or all of these "greedy" crooked companies and tout how he is beating any and all of them by choosing to do things his way. But even there, if the masses decide his was the better way and copied him, eventually, the food shelter wouldn't have food for him anymore, the begging wouldn't give him his income, the public restroom will run out of TP and so on.

The cord cutting works now because most people haven't done it. Netflix will not be able to stay at $8. Hulu won't stay at it's price either. Both are on borrowed time at those prices (meaning expect price increases or, more likely, tiered pricing). Over-the-air free might go too if the networks find they can get $6/month each and still run the commercials and be able to turn off the (expensive) towers. If an IP version of each can be compatible with local affiliate arrangements (programming and commercial sales), going from free* to $6 will simply be a smart, lucrative move for them.

Those who have it, enjoy it. Those who go soon, enjoy it. But when the masses try to go there, it will be over as you know it. Most of the savings revolves around assumptions that broadband pricing will remain static (it won't), that Netflix & Hulu can stay at around $8 forever (they can't), etc and that Apple can pile on as a new middleman but we'll somehow get everything else we can't get from Netflix for dirt cheap (like Netflix). If "everything else" could be delivered dirt cheap, it would already be on Netflix or Hulu. Instead, Netflix is losing desirable content like the whole Starz bundle when contracts come up for renewal and the content owners want a better deal for their content. Expect more of the same as other content contracts come up for renewal.
 
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This is a very well written and thought out argument. However, I would like to propose an alternative. I cut the cable years ago. I pay for internet service to the cable company (something I hate to do since they suck so much - I would pay more for a better service - but I digress). I currently pay for netflix that gives me most of the historical content that I want to watch. I then pay Apple when I want to watch something more current that is available through itunes. I also have a digital antenna to get live TV for news and the ocasional sports game.

My approach cost me on average about $20 per month ($8 for Netflix and 2 or 3 movies through iTunes). For me I might pay a few extra dollars to get the local channels through ATV to make the quality of the feed more consistent, but that's about it.

I don't watch hours of conent every month so any kind of bundle just won't work for my use case. Even the HBO deal seems off when it cost more than netflix or hulu. It really should be more about the content than the channel. HBO could partner with Netflix or Hulu and probably reach a wider audience. Netflix/Hulu would probably add a dollar to those that want access to the additional content and that would be about it.

So in summary, my approach would be to keep the aggregator model of Hulu/Netflix for the older content at a low cost ($9.99 would be the max) and then a la cart content through itunes newer content. A small additional fee for live streams for those that want it would also make sense.

For those that spend a lot of time in front of a TV watching content (go out and get some exercise) this model could be expensive if they are watching current content as you have said. Maybe bundles work for them. But for folks like me that only watch current content on ocassion, the aggregator + a la cart is a way better model.

Well thought out response. But just like every other response similar to yours, it discounts the fact that 1. your viewing habits are definitely in the minority. 2. most bundles include the cost of the internet (you didn't include that with your $20 estimate) 3. for content providers to want to provide a la cart programming, it has to be profitable. As many times as this subject has been on MR not one single person has given a viable reason for companies to do so.

It's easy for us to say "this is what I want" or "this is how things should be". But we shrink when it comes to providing an answer to how to make it happen and have the companies continue delivering content. These aren't charities. They're for profit businesses.
 
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