Louis Rossmann posted a new video about a T2 failure.... its really making me second guess buying a MBP next Friday
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Disturbing T2 Failures
- Thread starter Hazmat401
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There does not seem to be a rash of T2 chip failures, so not sure what he is referring to. Note this is component failure, not an occasional T2 crashes reported in the logs.
Also, the T2 is not supposed to swappable. It is a security chip. If you could just swap it for a random T2 chip and the encrypt data on the drive would be accessible, this would be a serious security flaw. That is, this lack of data accessibility without the original chip used to encrypt the data is a design feature, not a flaw.
Also, the T2 is not supposed to swappable. It is a security chip. If you could just swap it for a random T2 chip and the encrypt data on the drive would be accessible, this would be a serious security flaw. That is, this lack of data accessibility without the original chip used to encrypt the data is a design feature, not a flaw.
There are two concerns presented in the video.
First, the multi-function nature of the T2 has benefits and drawbacks. In addition to security, the T2 also performs the functions of chips like the system management controller (SMC), so there are a few ways it can fail. It looks like Apple does not repair or replace the T2 chip. Apple seems to replace the logic board for a T2 chip failure, and they use a Thunderbolt 3 data recovery tool to get the old data off the SSD on the old logic board.
https://9to5mac.com/2018/09/20/apple-t2-data-recovery-transfer-imac-pro-macbook/
Second, in the case presented in the video, Apple denied the owner's warranty service request. Apple said it had liquid damage, but the owner said there was none.
As a result of these two issues, Apple says the owner has to pay for a new logic board.
To me, this was surprising because users can face losing the data on the hard drive because of a SMC failure, and no one can fix it. The only solution Apple provides would be a considerable expense without warranty coverage.
First, the multi-function nature of the T2 has benefits and drawbacks. In addition to security, the T2 also performs the functions of chips like the system management controller (SMC), so there are a few ways it can fail. It looks like Apple does not repair or replace the T2 chip. Apple seems to replace the logic board for a T2 chip failure, and they use a Thunderbolt 3 data recovery tool to get the old data off the SSD on the old logic board.
https://9to5mac.com/2018/09/20/apple-t2-data-recovery-transfer-imac-pro-macbook/
Second, in the case presented in the video, Apple denied the owner's warranty service request. Apple said it had liquid damage, but the owner said there was none.
As a result of these two issues, Apple says the owner has to pay for a new logic board.
To me, this was surprising because users can face losing the data on the hard drive because of a SMC failure, and no one can fix it. The only solution Apple provides would be a considerable expense without warranty coverage.
Bashing Apple is part of Rossmann’s business strategy and I wouldn’t take anything he says for a grain of rice. His overblown sensationalism and way to conceal facts from the viewer are not helping his trustworthiness either.
@jgorman, this is a legitimate concern, but it’s ultimately not different from an SSD controller failing. What we lack is information about actual failures. How likely is T2 to fail compared to a usual enterprise-level SSD controller chip? Until we have clear information in regards to this, it’s just idle speculation. Over the last 7 years, since SSDs became commonplace in Apple laptops, I’ve only seen one or two SSD failures, and none of them were on a T2 equipped machine. It doesn’t say much of course, but my point being that since it’s such a low-frequency event, it’s real impact is negligible.
P.S. as to liquid damage stuff, it’s not a new story. We have such reports regularly, with many upset users even posting pictures of their allegedly liquid damaged logic boards. In most of these cases, liquid damage is clearly visible on the picture, even if the user is adamant it didn’t happen.
@jgorman, this is a legitimate concern, but it’s ultimately not different from an SSD controller failing. What we lack is information about actual failures. How likely is T2 to fail compared to a usual enterprise-level SSD controller chip? Until we have clear information in regards to this, it’s just idle speculation. Over the last 7 years, since SSDs became commonplace in Apple laptops, I’ve only seen one or two SSD failures, and none of them were on a T2 equipped machine. It doesn’t say much of course, but my point being that since it’s such a low-frequency event, it’s real impact is negligible.
P.S. as to liquid damage stuff, it’s not a new story. We have such reports regularly, with many upset users even posting pictures of their allegedly liquid damaged logic boards. In most of these cases, liquid damage is clearly visible on the picture, even if the user is adamant it didn’t happen.
I think the video is arguing this might be different in two or three different ways.
Since the T2 chip replaces several other chips on the board, for the probability of failure to be similar, its failure rate would have to take into account the probabilities of failure for those other chips. Even then, a failure in say, an audio input controller does not typically impact an SSD controller in other computers. It could be the case that the T2 is even more reliable, but as you say, no one knows the failure rate, except perhaps Apple.
As far as the magnitude of damage, unlike some of the individual chips, no one replaces the T2 chip, so the fix is the computer needs a new logic board.
Then lastly, I think the person in the video is pointing out that a third-party repair of some individual chips was possible, but that is not possible with a T2 chip. Apple is the only source for repair.
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He definitely has made a business of bashing apple and making money, yet with that said most (all?) of his criticisms is based on fact and actual failures from apple.
Here's my $.02
A Mac owner had a problem with his computer but apple refused to repair it under warranty due to liquid damage but there was no visible damage being illustrated. This can be frustrating if someone who knows for a fact liquid wasn't spilled but the company says it won't do anything and basically accuses the owner.
The thermal imaging does shows the T2 chip running very hot and seemed to fail, its only a single instance, so I'm not about to say that all T2 chips fail but with apple using the proprietary chip, they are effectively locking out third party repair shops. I suspect at some point they'll be locking down other aspects with the T2, like running macOS. Now because Rossman cannot repair the board, and apple refusing to honor its warranty, the consumer is more or less screwed. They have to either pay for Apple to repair it or buy a new computer.
No where in the video does he show that the T2 is bad... if you listen carefully, he is saying he used to be able to experimentally replace the SMC chip to see if that is the problem. That is what he can't do now with the T2. The fact the T2 chip is 6 degrees C greater than the board is likely totally normal -- a processor is almost always going to be hotter than the rest of the board. I was curious he didn't show the temperature of the actual CPU which is undoubtedly even higher.
His point that Apple is claiming there is water damage when there doesn't seem to be certainly is valid -- Apple (and others) using those "red dot" moisture indicators is a long-standing issue when they've been shown to show false-positives.
His complaint the machine is less repairable is certainly valid -- that is happening all across industries from cars to tractors as the tech gets more and more consolidated into proprietary parts. At some point the whole logic board is probably going to be a couple of chips and a few resistors/capacitors. That is only going to increase over time. It certainly is a disadvantage for independent repairs, but the advantages are probably too great to reverse that.
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His point that Apple is claiming there is water damage when there doesn't seem to be certainly is valid -- Apple (and others) using those "red dot" moisture indicators is a long-standing issue when they've been shown to show false-positives.
His complaint the machine is less repairable is certainly valid -- that is happening all across industries from cars to tractors as the tech gets more and more consolidated into proprietary parts. At some point the whole logic board is probably going to be a couple of chips and a few resistors/capacitors. That is only going to increase over time. It certainly is a disadvantage for independent repairs, but the advantages are probably too great to reverse that.
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Apple by policy won't repair any laptop with those red-dot moisture indicators activated. That is the real "scandal" of that whole story (which I agree is probably unfair). They are trying to make it more than that, which frankly is something that particular show does all the time.
Lol, you're questioning someone about trusting Rossman by posting a video that takes a MacBook to Rossman that is asking us to trust what he says? I don't follow.
The issue here is Apple not repairing a product that is still under warranty. And you can't say anything. If one dude says "Sorry, it has liquid damage", you don't really have access to anything more.
How else do you make someone credible than by a 3rd-party mentioning you? He was not the only one used for their insight.
The amount of people just targeting Rossmann and "not seeing the forest" is telling.
Too many people wearing rosy Apple goggles.
"As you can see.. it shows just about no sign that liquid has ever been here."
I'm not an expert, but the board either shows signs of liquid damage or it doesn't, right? "Just about no sign" of liquid doesn't sound very definitive to me coming from an expert like Rossman. Poor choice of words?
I'm not an expert, but the board either shows signs of liquid damage or it doesn't, right? "Just about no sign" of liquid doesn't sound very definitive to me coming from an expert like Rossman. Poor choice of words?
Yes, really.
I have no rose colored Apple glasses on here. I'm 100% supportive of states passing Right to Repair laws and Apple's machines being more user serviceable.
Rossmann, being a professional, saying a logic board has just about no signs of liquid makes me wonder if he's observing *some potential signs* of liquid damage and glossing over it.
If you look at Rossmann's youTube channel he has examples of boards that did not show on visual inspection, liquid damage. But then when he un-soldered components he found liquid damage underneath components. This makes me question any inspection that did not involve un-soldering components.
Very interesting. It was an honest question on my part + playing a bit of devil's advocate here..
While Rossmann has legitimate reasons to have contempt for Apple and he does a good service by bringing some of Apple's more questionable practices to light, much like a fan who love all things Apple no matter what, his bias against Apple is pretty extreme and predictable.
Linus Tech Tips is more of a happy medium for me.
well considering how many examples of very very bad engineering and apples bullsh*t he has to deal with daily I'm proud of him that he's still able to remain that calm.
Difficult to consider LTT as a medium when they inject sponsors left & right.
Dave2D is much preferred to me as well. I also recommend MobileTechReviews.
Yes, I enjoy both of those myself. Lisa does some remarkable, and indepth reviews.
I don't consider myself as wearing rosy Apple goggles, but say what you will. What I do know is that Rossman hates Apple and dedicates a serious amount of time badmouthing them, T2 chip discussion aside.
No argument, but he does back up his comments with evidence. Say what you will about Rossman, the onus on many of the issues is on Apple.
They are fighting the right to repair, they are the ones that implemented proprietary technology to prevent independent shops from repairing Apple products.. Apple's cutting corners that resulted in flexgate, or the butterfly keyboard, etc etc.
I don’t disagree, but I think you have to be able to separate a little from what is fact to what is just plain sour grapes. He can’t repair the newer machines so he just constantly bad mouths Apple. I don’t think he does what he does for the “common good.” He does what he does because it gets him clicks and he has a built in audience around Apple haters. His channel is just a big mosh of trashing Apple and he knows he’s going to get people to click his channel the more he hates on them.
And yes, with FlexGate and all you mentioned I agree, but Apple has stepped up and offered fixes for those problems.
He's been bad mouthing apple for years, well before the T2 and his points have always been based on apple's quality, or design, or customer support. He's said on many occasiosn that repairing Macs have been good for him. I understand his and other independent repair shops frustration, apple can be very anti-competitive and we see this instance here.
Yes and no, I agree that his rants have turned into a cottage industry for him, but not for nothing, Apple has and continues to give me plenty of ammunition for those rants.