Do you think making a CDMA version iPhone on top of the GSM verision was smart?

[callmemike20]

+1000. Empirical proof that it won't be a problem for the majority. Most Americans are used to buying phones per carrier, not per protocol.

Exactly, but many Americans are used to buying cases for their iDevices at places like Best Buy and Amazon. It will be up to these stores to make a clear distinction. Working in retail, I know that no matter how obvious you make it, people will still have questions.

 

[RebeccaL]

I think the contrary. It was dumb for Apple not to support more networks from the start. More networks=more customers=$$ for Apple.

As mentioned, Motorola, Palm and other companies have been making versions of their phones for multiple networks even before the iPhone existed.

 

[Interstella5555]

So it's not a smart idea because people in the US aren't smart enough to differentiate between two carriers? I know we're not at the top of the intellectual food chain here, but if that's true......damn.

 

[mpossoff]

Do you even know what we're talking about here????

Yes most Americans choose carrier and not specifics of carrier whether it's gsm or CDMA. What matters for most is reliability.

 

[paulrbeers]

I know that when I talk CDMA and GSM to my parents they give me a blank look. But, ask my parents who they pay $200+ a month for their cell phone bill and they can tell you in an instant.

The only issues will be the slight case differences will be difficult if you walk into a target/walmart/best buy, but again that is easily remedied by slapping ATT and/or Verizon right on the package. Case manufacturers are also not stupid and know that the average Joe won't know what type of iphone they have so they will use the carrier name.

This is really about the dumbest thread I have posted to in awhile. Why did I bother.

 

[drummingcraig]

Yes most Americans choose carrier and not specifics of carrier whether it's gsm or CDMA. What matters for most is reliability.

Actually no. I was replying to a poster who said he was offended by the notion that many people wouldn't know the difference between a Verizon CDMA iPhone and an AT&T GSM iPhone (the actual hardware differences; not the carriers/service). While I agree with you that service is an important factor, that is not what I was talking about in the post you quoted.

Not trying to be a arse here. Just feel like this thread has already spiraled to a point where no one is reading the previous post and just making assumptions based on reading one or two random replies.

 

[stewart715]

I think people are making this CDMA thing too big of a deal. The only major noticeable difference is the simultaneous data/voice (which to many isn't that noticeable).

BlackBerrys, Android devices, etc - they're all on CDMA and GSM networks. It's not a big deal. It's something that was simply inevitable. Look at the current US GSM providers -- they're garbage compared to Verizon and Sprint. Everyone's talking down CDMA but it's ironic that many have made a point to stay away from providers like Cingular, T-Mobile and AT&T. Irony.

I think the only reason it took this long was because of contractual obligations with AT&T.

 

[QuarterSwede]

It will be easy to tell customers the difference. One iPhone has a SIM slot, the other doesn't. The one with the SIM slot only works with AT&T, and vice-versa.

Now, as to the hybrid CDMA-GSM iPhone. It is not going to happen ever. This one all engineers are going to agree with me. The current iPhone barely has space for one radio. They had to go the microSIM route to make it work. Having an extra radio is not possible, unless they make the iPhone fatter or bigger, which I highly doubt Jobs will allow.

There are rumors today that Apple is looking at Qualcomm who makes the hybrid CDMA/GSM chips. It could definitely happen.

 

[Geckotek]

The thing here is, apple fixed the antenna issue, and that resolution required a slight modification to the button placement.

I can't say this is a mistake because it resolves the deathgrip problem.

That's a big assumption. I see nothing about the antenna change that fixes the death grip. The problem "seam" is still in it's same location. I honestly believe it was to tune the antenna for Verizon's network.

I used to think threads like this were insulting. Then I got into IT. It's surprisingly accurate, unfortunately. <snip>

I work in IT as well and while I agree most users are highly uneducated in a lot of technical details, I find most figure out just enough of what they need to get by. (I don't respect or defend this...just using it to make a point.)

That being said, all they really need to know to get by is which carrier the phone is made for. It won't take long for most people to realize the sim slot on the side means AT&T, and without means Verizon. This is truly all they need to know.

There are rumors today that Apple is looking at Qualcomm who makes the hybrid CDMA/GSM chips. It could definitely happen.

Looking at as in buying?

 

[kdarling]

Exactly, but many Americans are used to buying cases for their iDevices at places like Best Buy and Amazon. It will be up to these stores to make a clear distinction.

You're probably right that lots of people will buy the wrong case, thinking they're generic, since most cases haven't previously been labelled "for ATT iPhone" or anything distinctive.

Too bad they moved the buttons. Was it forced because of a moved antenna seam? I haven't looked.

--

Since antennas don't care about CDMA vs GSM, the only antenna change needed would be to accomodate different frequencies. Verizon and ATT both use the 800/850 (same thing - different names) and 1900 bands, so the laziest solution would've been to do nothing and leave the antenna as-is.

However, an iPhone GSM antenna has to be a compromised design because it must also support three more bands to allow sales in other countries.

So it makes sense that Verizon would want an antenna optimized just for the US bands... and it should work better just because of that.

 

[Carlanga]

It may cause some confusion for the average consumer, being 2 different kinds of iPhone's. 1 only working on ATT and 1 only working on Verizon, for now....Was apple so anxious to get it to verizon, and vice versa, they rushed it? I just see this hurting a little bit down the road, thats all....

Rushed? not at all... Let's say that the store makes a mistake and someone buys the incorrect iPhone, it won't work w/ the person's carrier so the person will take it back on the 15d trial and get the correct one if they didn't activate in store and if they did then right on the spot it should not work, so what's so hard about that.

I think people are making this CDMA thing too big of a deal. The only major noticeable difference is the simultaneous data/voice (which to many isn't that noticeable)...

I agree, but no simultaneous data/voice IS a very big deal, people that say it isn't is because they haven't used a network that has it, so they grew accustomed to using their smartphone w/ the limitation or if they had a GSM phone then they simply don't use the smartphone features as much, just look at how many iPhone ads w/ multitasking of data/voice on them. I use them simultaneously many times, checking an email to answers someones question or giving them info on the same call is awesome.

That's a big assumption. I see nothing about the antenna change that fixes the death grip. The problem "seam" is still in it's same location. I honestly believe it was to tune the antenna for Verizon's network...

I believe the change of the other seams made the problem go away according to various reviewers, but the place of the conference has great Verizon signal so until they test it in other places w/ weaker signal we won't really know...

 

[Geckotek]

Since antennas don't care about CDMA vs GSM, the only antenna change needed would be to accomodate different frequencies. Verizon and ATT both use the 800/850 (same thing - different names) and 1900 bands, so the laziest solution would've been to do nothing and leave the antenna as-is.

Ok, that makes sense...

I believe the change of the other seams made the problem go away according to various reviewers, but the place of the conference has great Verizon signal so until they test it in other places w/ weaker signal we won't really know...

I'm sorry, but these people are not just guessing, they are making very uneducated guesses. It still doesn't add up for me. Look at what changed...do you put your hand on it? Until we have a teardown that shows the internal connections...we can't know for sure.

However, an iPhone GSM antenna has to be a compromised design because it must also support three more bands to allow sales in other countries.

So it makes sense that Verizon would want an antenna optimized just for the US bands... and it should work better just because of that.

This makes the most sense to me. And I'm willing to bet the 3,3 phone is a CDMA model that is optimized for China and/or other CDMA countries and includes an R/UIM slot. This also fits with the news from Digitimes that the Verizon iPhone is manufactured by Foxconn and the others by Pegatron.

 

[Wicked1]

All the phone MFG's have been in this game for some time, why not Apple, are they so different. RIM, HTC, Motorola, etc all have made their phones to work on all networks, but I think Apple wants a bigger piece of pie (No Pun intended) so why not branch out, I hardly think it will hurt them, just depends on how Verizon can handle the data, and support.

I hardly think you will see more than about 5-10% of AT&T subscribers leave, and it will not be long before VZ starts making some serious limitations to their phones, they already cancelled the Customer Discounts as of next month I believe. Unlimited Data will not be around for long I am almost certain.

 

[Rodimus Prime]

It will be easy to tell customers the difference. One iPhone has a SIM slot, the other doesn't. The one with the SIM slot only works with AT&T, and vice-versa.

Now, as to the hybrid CDMA-GSM iPhone. It is not going to happen ever. This one all engineers are going to agree with me. The current iPhone barely has space for one radio. They had to go the microSIM route to make it work. Having an extra radio is not possible, unless they make the iPhone fatter or bigger, which I highly doubt Jobs will allow.

I will disagree with you on Apple going for the MicroSim to make everything work. I think they went with the MicroSim to increase the Apple lock in. Reason for it is the equipment to read the MicroSim and Sim Card is still the exact same size and that is were the largest bulk of it is. Only difference is you just have make slot just a little longer and since it went over the top of the battery in the phone it could of easily been able to handle it.

Now I could see apple in the future going with the hybrid chip design that many of Verizon World Phones use. All the Blackberry world phones on Verizon for example can do GSM and CDMA.

 

[Geckotek]

I will disagree with you on Apple going for the MicroSim to make everything work. I think they went with the MicroSim to increase the Apple lock in.

Since the MicroSIM is not proprietary and everyone could start using it tomorrow if they wanted, I don't believe this to be the case.

 

[kdarling]

All the phone MFG's have been in this game for some time, why not Apple, are they so different. RIM, HTC, Motorola, etc all have made their phones to work on all networks, but I think Apple wants a bigger piece of pie (No Pun intended) so why not branch out, I hardly think it will hurt them, just depends on how Verizon can handle the data, and support.

While many of us have pointed out for years that the CDMA market is a nice ripe one, money-wise, I don't think was the main reason for Apple to jump in right now.

I think Apple realized that they could not wait very much longer to do something about the Android juggernaut. Without the Verizon sales about to be pumped in, Android would've - in just a month or two from now -become the most used type of smartphone in the US, not just the best selling. Apple wants public mindshare, and to keep people within their iTunes ecosystem.

I hardly think you will see more than about 5-10% of AT&T subscribers leave, and it will not be long before VZ starts making some serious limitations to their phones, they already cancelled the Customer Discounts as of next month I believe. Unlimited Data will not be around for long I am almost certain.

Those extra discounts - the New Every Two program - were on top of the usual subsidies. They were nice, but canceling them just puts Verizon back on parity with AT&T.

As for unlimited data... hmm. I think it'll depend on whether or not Verizon actually takes any kind of slowdown hit. If they don't, the option will probably stick around for CDMA.

 

[Rodimus Prime]

Since the MicroSIM is not proprietary and everyone could start using it tomorrow if they wanted, I don't believe this to be the case.

while that part is true no one else was at the time and still isn't. Apple knew it would lock people in for some time and increase the difficulty of you hoping between phones or leaving the iPhone. I can not think of any phone other than the iPhone that is even using the MicroSIM.
MicroSIM locks you to the carier more as well. If there is not a deal cut to carry the iPhone it is near impossible to switch to said carrier.

Now look at apple they are pushing for the next step to do away with the Sim card. This again seems more like a lock in action.
There is a reason why MicroSIM never took off and that reason is it did not offer anything really useful over the SIM card.

 

[jacollins]

It may cause some confusion for the average consumer, being 2 different kinds of iPhone's. 1 only working on ATT and 1 only working on Verizon, for now.

I think the converse, that Apple was INSANE to not have done this earlier. You seem to be under the impression that this is just a Verizon only thing. It's not. India and China's got more CDMA subscribers than AT&T and Verizon have combined, and are growing fast. I've seen some reports of half a BILLION subscribers (although I don't remember if that's predicted or actual).

I'm sure AT&T was paying a bundle to keep Apple locked in to them, but I never understood why Apple was leaving money on the table (other than they couldn't make the phones fast enough).

Sure, Apple could have made a dual mode phone that supported both GSM and CDMA, but that adds to the price, and India/China are price sensitive markets. Maybe in the future when the price comes down.

 

[Consultant]

This way, Verizon can no longer tell people to get Android iPhone knockoff when the millions of people continue to ask for the iPhone.

Apple already changed the mobile phone industry:
- no carrier crap-ware
- no $2.99 ringtone
- easy to update firmware with iPhone (carriers lock Androids to their crap-ware filled old os)
- etc.

 

[Geckotek]

I think Apple realized that they could not wait very much longer to do something about the Android juggernaut.

I actually disagree with this. As was stated during the announcement, this deal started 2 years ago. Android was just about to launch and had no market share. It may have become a motivator later on, but it wasn't Apple's primary purpose for working with Verizon. It had to be to get to Verizon's subscribers.

I think the converse, that Apple was INSANE to not have done this earlier. You seem to be under the impression that this is just a Verizon only thing. It's not. India and China's got more CDMA subscribers than AT&T and Verizon have combined, and are growing fast. I've seen some reports of half a BILLION subscribers (although I don't remember if that's predicted or actual).

That's actually not true. The last numbers I looked at had 85M CDMA subscribers in China and I know India had a little less. Adding the 2 makes them larger than Verizon, but nowhere near 1/2 a Billion. In fact, total CDMA subscribers worldwide is 550M (this includes the 92M Verizon has).

 

[Stealthipad]

I would say it is VERY smart!

It cost Apple little in comparison to the new customers that they and Verizon will gain.

I kinda think that Apple knows what they are doing!

 

[Applejuiced]

That's actually not true. The last numbers I looked at had 85M CDMA subscribers in China and I know India had a little less. Adding the 2 makes them larger than Verizon, but nowhere near 1/2 a Billion. In fact, total CDMA subscribers worldwide is 550M (this includes the 92M Verizon has).

Alot of numbers but the question is how many of those China or India customers can afford to purchase iphones?
$600-700 is probably what most average there for income in 2 months probably.
I bet most of their sales will come from US CDMA consumers.

 

[RebeccaL]

Since the MicroSIM is not proprietary and everyone could start using it tomorrow if they wanted, I don't believe this to be the case.

Plus there are MicroSIM to SIM adapters for phones that don't use it . It was like when Motorola switched to MicroSD from Mini SD.

 

[parseckadet]

People understand that different appliances require different power cables because its something they deal with on a daily basis. My computer needs a different power cord then my printer, and my cell phone power supply won't charge my electric razor, etc etc. How often do people deal with the in's & outs of buying a new cell phone, much less switching carriers entirely? Remember, I am not talking about the tech savvy gadget guru who always wants the latest and the greatest. I am talking about the average person who doesn't understand that one cell phone doesn't not automatically jive with any carrier.

And we're not just talking about knowing the difference between CDMA & GSM, but also *which* company supports *which* format, and how those devices interact with each respective network. Think about someone who has only ever used GSM phones with SIM cards. Unless they go out of their way to learn about it, they're not going to automatically know that switching CDMA phones is not as simple as popping a SIM card in & out.

The problem is that you're assuming people don't have prior experience shopping for cell phones. Don't forget that we're now living in the days where kids are getting their own cell phones when they're 10 (or younger), and plenty of retirees have them as well. As another poster pointed out, the big fad before the iPhone was the Razr, which was eventually available on every carrier. Plenty of people had to buy a new Razr just because they were switching carriers, even though they already had one. It is well understood that you almost always have to buy a new phone when you switch carriers. It's really just the techy people who understand better that that's not always the case.

I can quickly think of *at least* 10 people I know (who are not morons drooling into a napkin) that wouldn't know the difference between those things and would need to ask for help. As I said in my other post, if they buy from a dealer they'll be fine. But those folks who go to 3rd party sellers are the ones at risk for getting burned.

But I bet if you asked them whether they needed to buy a new phone if they were to switch carriers all 10 would say yes. People also know that when they buy a new phone they need to make sure it works with their current carrier, unless they want to switch.

To answer the original question, was it smart to develop a CDMA version of the iPhone, all you have to do is listen to any tech podcast. When you do you'll know that people have been foaming at the mouth for three years to get an iPhone on Verizon (or anyone other than AT&T). When you look at it in that context, and also realize that Apple gains access to tens of millions of new customers, you quickly realize that it is a VERY smart move. Personally, I'm thrilled because it means Molly Wood and Leo Laporte will finally shut the eff up.

 

[kdarling]

I actually disagree with this. As was stated during the announcement, this deal started 2 years ago. Android was just about to launch and had no market share. It may have become a motivator later on, but it wasn't Apple's primary purpose for working with Verizon. It had to be to get to Verizon's subscribers.

I totally agree and have always said the Verizon market would be a good one for Apple. That's why they've been talking together for years.

However, my point in that particular post was that Apple probably felt they couldn't wait any longer to bring out a Verizon iPhone, because of Android. In other words, without Android breathing down their neck, they'd probably have waited another year or so until LTE was very widespread.

I think most people expected them to wait much longer, but that would've been real trouble IMHO.

Regards.