Do you use OS X's new features?

[Amethyst1]

In all of this great discussion I think it’s worth mentioning that I love having my different Mac environments and appreciate their idiosyncrasies.

That's what I also enjoy among my different PowerPC Macs, they're usually dedicated to one or two operating systems and I choose machines depending on the OS I want to play around with.

I have recently tried to incorporate Panther into my workflow with a “new” Lombard purchase and it feels solid.

Any particular reason you're not using one of your many other Macs to run Panther? Just interested.

I like the diversity of having these Mac systems.
In short, we’re really spoilt for choice.

I don't intend to kick off a philosophical discussion about the particular definition of choice or diversity, but let's just say that we're talking about a form of diversity or choice framed by the constraints imposed by Mac OS X.

Examples:
- Can you get rid of Finder entirely and use something else if you want? No.
- Can you change the system font without third-party applications/hacks? No. (OS 9 did allow that!)
- Can you install any version of Mac OS X you want on any Mac? No.

 

[z970]

@Amethyst1 Those would be yeses if it was a Linux system.

Just saying.

 

[bunnspecial]

Am I the only one not bothered by natural scrolling at all?

Obviously, it was targeted at trackpads and Magic Mice. Not at Mighty Mice or mice with scroll wheels.

My first "immersive" exposure to OS X(as in using it as my primary OS for ~2 weeks) was on a MacBook 5,1-a laptop with a full "buttonless" glass trackpad and running Snow Leopard.

When I jumped immediately from it to my first Mac, a late 2011 13" MBP running Lion, I immediately found the flipped scroll direction confusing and I was SO happy to find that there was a way to change the direction. It was one of the first things I did.

That habit has persisted for nearly 7 years now...

 

[z970]

-

 

[Amethyst1]

@Amethyst1 Those would be yeses if it was a Linux system.

Just saying.

I was talking specifically about Mac OS X, because, in most cases being a Mac user means being an OS X user. And I know the answers to my questions are yes on a Linux or BSD system.

 

[z970]

I was talking specifically about Mac OS X, because, in most cases being a Mac user means being an OS X user. And I know the answers to my questions are yes on a Linux or BSD system.

I know.

Just being a smart aleck today...

 

[bobesch]

Let me rephrase that.

It was targeted at trackpads and Magic Mice used by people who were either total computer noobs, or open to change how they used their systems.

Hu, "natural scrolling" is just another option to scroll ...

Hyping that feature as a new and critical feature and making it standard was kind of too pushy.
Me I also prefer the old fashioned way of scrolling which works on all my machines and I'm really annoyed, that I always have to change settings ...
But it's just another option. No fuzz about it...
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In all of this great discussion I think it’s worth mentioning that I love having my different Mac environments and appreciate their idiosyncrasies.

My daily driver Mac Pro is on El Capitan, I have an iMac on High Sierra, my G5 loves Leopard and my PowerBook G4 12” is solid on Tiger. I have recently tried to incorporate Panther into my workflow with a “new” Lombard purchase and it feels solid. I discovered Taco HTML editor and an old version of TextWrangler are completely usable on 10.3 as is an older version of Transmit for publishing web changes.

I like the diversity of having these Mac systems. There are quibbles with each OS (like disappearing scroll bars on some and lack of Quicklook on others), but I switch gears easily and I appreciate that they can mostly communicate with each other via my El Cap MP which acts as the bridge between the new and the old. Remote Desktop, File Sharing and even iTunes across all of these systems play nice enough. Xcode 1.5 on Panther and Xcode 10 on High Sierra can effectively compile much of the same Obj-C, C and C++ source code and they share a similar workflow.

In short, we’re really spoilt for choice. It’s a great time to be a Mac user!

Well said! - the Zen of (old&new) Macs ...

 

[1042686]

Nope, not really.

... And natural scrolling blows. At a work training, I had to use a 2016 MBP w/ that dingdong touch bar, horrid tick tack extreme keyboard & to top it off natural scrolling trackpad with screwy gesture settings. I got through it but literally every time I had to click or scroll was like fingernails down a chalkboard.

I did not realize how hideous & gimicky the newish MBPs are until I was forced to use one because the facilitator drank the coolaide in the worst possible way.

 

[z970]

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[AphoticD]

Any particular reason you're not using one of your many other Macs to run Panther? Just interested.

I do setup most of my PowerPC Macs to multi-boot and I have plenty of Panther systems. I found clarity within the limitations of the Lombard (400MHz G3, 6GB HDD, 384MB RAM, 8MB Rage LT Pro) and set it up with Panther and OS9 only. Official support for this machine ended at 10.3.9 and I didn't want to mess around with XPostFacto. So these factors led it to being a dedicated Panther machine. The performance of Panther on this Mac is completely acceptable for my needs.

I don't intend to kick off a philosophical discussion about the particular definition of choice or diversity, but let's just say that we're talking about a form of diversity or choice framed by the constraints imposed by Mac OS X.

Examples:
- Can you get rid of Finder entirely and use something else if you want? No.
- Can you change the system font without third-party applications/hacks? No. (OS 9 did allow that!)
- Can you install any version of Mac OS X you want on any Mac? No.

I hear you. I am clearly a well conditioned Mac user. I've been a Mac enthusiast since I met my first little 9" all-in-one Mac around 1988. The Mac approach has become well ingrained in me, so I haven't had a great deal of interest in seeking an alternative (full-time) operating system. That's just me. IMO, being able to natively run Mac OS 8.1 on my PDQ through to High Sierra on my iMac allows for a broad enough diversity, while keeping my Mac-sensibilities happy.

In regards to your examples, which are completely valid; Although not officially supported, there are often ways to hack at things until you get the results you are looking for.. just ask @LightBulbFun

 

[Raging Dufus]

Examples:
- Can you get rid of Finder entirely and use something else if you want? No.
- Can you change the system font without third-party applications/hacks? No. (OS 9 did allow that!)
- Can you install any version of Mac OS X you want on any Mac? No.

@Amethyst1 Those would be yeses if it was a Linux system.

Just saying.

Oh, come on now. The answer to that last one is not, "yes." Not by any means.

I can't use any version of Linux I want on any Mac; far from it. My options are limited in reference to 32-bit EFI-based Intel Macs, which (even with 64-bit C2D CPU's!) can't run 64-bit-only distros like Elementary OS. At least, not without some hair-pulling hack-around tomfoolery. If I could have found a way that didn't make me want to take a sledgehammer to the machine, I'd be running Elementary on my C2D Mac Mini! But I can't. It's even worse in PowerPC land. Options for running Linux on any PowerPC Mac are very, very limited these days.

And, the idea that Linux is a realistic alternative for "any Mac" is like saying that there are alternative means of locomotion for my car. It's a true statement; I mean, I could utilize gravity by only using the car to travel to places that are downhill from my present location; or, I could mount a sail on the thing and hope for a good stiff wind in the direction I want to go; or, I could strap my lawnmower to it; or I could hitch up my dog like the Grinch; or...you get the idea. But nothing else is going to be as elegant and fitting a solution as simply powering up the car's own engine.

 

[swamprock]

Oh, come on now. The answer to that last one is not, "yes." Not by any means.

I can't use any version of Linux I want on any Mac; far from it. My options are limited in reference to 32-bit EFI-based Intel Macs, which (even with 64-bit C2D CPU's!) can't run 64-bit-only distros like Elementary OS. At least, not without some hair-pulling hack-around tomfoolery. If I could have found a way that didn't make me want to take a sledgehammer to the machine, I'd be running Elementary on my C2D Mac Mini! But I can't. It's even worse in PowerPC land. Options for running Linux on any PowerPC Mac are very, very limited these days.

And, the idea that Linux is a realistic alternative for "any Mac" is like saying that there are alternative means of locomotion for my car. It's a true statement; I mean, I could utilize gravity by only using the car to travel to places that are downhill from my present location; or, I could mount a sail on the thing and hope for a good stiff wind in the direction I want to go; or, I could strap my lawnmower to it; or I could hitch up my dog like the Grinch; or...you get the idea. But nothing else is going to be as elegant and fitting a solution as simply powering up the car's own engine.

Installing 64 bit Linux on 32 bit EFI machines, with updated converted ISOs. No hackery involved, just a quick conversion program to make the ISOs boot.

https://mattgadient.com/2016/07/11/linux-dvd-images-and-how-to-for-32-bit-efi-macs-late-2006-models/

Elementary OS runs super fast on my MacBook3,1.

 

[MysticCow]

@Amethyst1 Those would be yeses if it was a Linux system.

Just saying.

If I seriously want to hurt my PPC Macs, I will install Linux. I've never seen a Linux for PPC I liked.

Go for MorphOS instead. It might cost real money, but it's absurdly fast compared to any Linux.

So my choice of OS is Mac OS 9 first, X second, Morph third, and Linux is just way last for me.

 

[Raging Dufus]

Installing 64 bit Linux on 32 bit EFI machines, with updated converted isos:

https://mattgadient.com/2016/07/11/linux-dvd-images-and-how-to-for-32-bit-efi-macs-late-2006-models/

Elementary OS runs super fast on my MacBook3,1.

Thanks, but I tried that. I mean, what you linked specifically; as well as just about everything else I could find.

I really, really wanted to run Elementary OS, but no matter what I tried, my Mac Mini2,1 just wouldn't cooperate.

 

[AL1630]

If I seriously want to hurt my PPC Macs, I will install Linux. I've never seen a Linux for PPC I liked.

Go for MorphOS instead. It might cost real money, but it's absurdly fast compared to any Linux.

So my choice of OS is Mac OS 9 first, X second, Morph third, and Linux is just way last for me.

I've always wanted to give Morphos a shot, but I just can't get over the price tag. I might try out the trial on my iBook soon though.

 

[MysticCow]

I've always wanted to give Morphos a shot, but I just can't get over the price tag. I might try out the trial on my iBook soon though.

I think they're even trying for a Universal install for early Intels also. iThink...

 

[Slix]

A lot of users here are mentioned changes in UI or bugs that have been introduced, but you asked if we used OS X's new features, and to answer that: yes I do. Another thing mentioned is Natural Scrolling, and to be honest I kept it on when they first introduced it because we had a Magic Trackpad, and I've never gone back. It's so ingrained in my usage that even on regular mice I go to scroll backwards now (really annoying when it's on a PC or older Mac and I start scrolling the opposite direction!) I really feel that it mimics touch screen inputs so well and that's why it's considered "natural".

I use a lot of them, and it's partially why I like being a Mac user:
- iMessage
- Quick Look (if I'm not on Leopard+, I really miss it)
- Multi-touch for zooming and Look Up/Quick Look on words/files
- Mission Control (I do use Expose a lot, but I never really got into Spaces until Full Screen Apps came to be)
- Launchpad (I rarely use Spotlight)
- Picture-In-Picture videos from Safari
- Notes and Reminders
- Many other iCloud features (iCloud Tabs, Notes/Reminders syncing, iCloud Drive)

Many others I'm sure, but those are fresh in my mind! A lot of these I could live without, and I have to on PowerPCs, but it's what makes newer OS X's nice to use, for myself personally.

 

[bunnspecial]

Of course, I could complain about the crap operating system + software they ship with as well, but that's a (somewhat) different topic for another day, or better yet, no day at all, because I'm tired of complaining.

You've made a lot of comments about how terrible recent versions of OS X/macOS are, but what are your specific complaints about it?

Also, I've never "lived with" a Force Touch track pad, but I've spent plenty of time using them. That includes quite a few computers at work that I've set up for their new owners in addition to playing with them in the store.

Although the feel is a bit different from the hinged "clicking" trackpad, it has its positives. Namely, I like that you can "click" it anywhere on the surface and the force required is the same-that's as opposed to the hinged kind that doesn't click at the top and the force required is uneven as you move down it. The haptic feedback is quite good, and most folks don't even realize that it's not moving unless you point it out to them.

 

[z970]

Oh, come on now. The answer to that last one is not, "yes." Not by any means.

Alright, alright. Maybe not. But it's sure as hell more flexible and diverse than your available OS X options.

I can't use any version of Linux I want on any Mac; far from it. My options are limited in reference to 32-bit EFI-based Intel Macs, which (even with 64-bit C2D CPU's!) can't run 64-bit-only distros like Elementary OS. At least, not without some hair-pulling hack-around tomfoolery. If I could have found a way that didn't make me want to take a sledgehammer to the machine, I'd be running Elementary on my C2D Mac Mini! But I can't. It's even worse in PowerPC land. Options for running Linux on any PowerPC Mac are very, very limited these days.

And, the idea that Linux is a realistic alternative for "any Mac" is like saying that there are alternative means of locomotion for my car. It's a true statement; I mean, I could utilize gravity by only using the car to travel to places that are downhill from my present location; or, I could mount a sail on the thing and hope for a good stiff wind in the direction I want to go; or, I could strap my lawnmower to it; or I could hitch up my dog like the Grinch; or...you get the idea. But nothing else is going to be as elegant and fitting a solution as simply powering up the car's own engine.

Except when you don't like or approve of how its engine runs, and you want it to run a certain way like it used to, but if you make it run like it used to, you render in a much, much more incompatible state just to satisfy your needs. It's a massive tradeoff.

To each his own.
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If I seriously want to hurt my PPC Macs, I will install Linux. I've never seen a Linux for PPC I liked.

Go for MorphOS instead. It might cost real money, but it's absurdly fast compared to any Linux.

So my choice of OS is Mac OS 9 first, X second, Morph third, and Linux is just way last for me.

Maybe it was in undesirable taste of me, but I was talking about Intel Macs. Not just PowerPC Macs. In PPC land, yes, OS X is usually the better pick.

That's my fault for not clarifying.

 

[CooperBox]

I demoed the newest MacBook Pros at a local Best Buy recently, and I walked out with the conclusion that you couldn't PAY me to use those dumpster fires for more than an hour - at best, because they feel HORRIBLE to use.

The tactile feedback on the keys are almost nonexistent, and likewise with the trackpad. Apple truly is doing everything they can to make their laptop inputs as physically similar as possible to a touchscreen, because they really do believe that all you need (and should have - because they're authoritarian) is an iPad, and that laptop usage is essentially redundant.

And good luck if you end up spilling something on the keys, because you not only don't have a prayer to have them come out alive, you are also 100% BARRED from repairing it yourself, thus that's another $500 to $1000 or so (ballpark) for repairs. And that's putting aside prior expenses from all those dongles you had to buy when originally purchasing the machine- sorry, disposable. My Dell XPS 15z (2011) had some water spilled on its keyboard, and afterward, the affected keys gave flakey performance. But after some drying and quick banging (the universal solution ), it was up and running like a charm once more, which you absolutely would not be able to say for Apple's newest offerings.

Of course, I could complain about the crap operating system + software they ship with as well, but that's a (somewhat) different topic for another day, or better yet, no day at all, because I'm tired of complaining.

Given the progression of time, I thought technology was supposed to move forward and get better. Not in Apple land. If incrementally making technology a step-backwards is their new, pathetic way of Thinking Different, then I just don't know what to say.

There really is a great reason why my next Mac...will not be a Mac, or any Apple product at all, for that matter. For me, they're coming to just make life harder to live. My Mac Pro (2008) will be my final stand in Apple land, and I'm sure as hell not moving to Microsoft.

Don't beat about the bush, did you like the newest MBook Pro or not........
Same with me, my next Mac will not be anything new from Apple - unless it's totally revolutionary, and user repairable! In other words I can't see it happening.

 

[z970]

You've made a lot of comments about how terrible recent versions of OS X/macOS are, but what are your specific complaints about it?

The art style / direction. The under-baked Photos that can't handle moving some files around. The almost garbage Disk Utility that is much more likely to come back at you with errors, be unable to partition partitions where older versions could, and everything else wrong with it (just look at it). Gnome Disks hasn't failed me where Disk Utility constantly has (looks better, too). No graphical way (like there used to be when tweaking Quartz Extreme) to turn off System Integrity Protection. The obvious blatancy that Apple knows how to work your computer better than you do. The inability to customize an OS X install (since 10.7). The mess and shambles of the application that is iTunes 12 (which is now going on four years old). The unsupported designation of an OS release older than 3 years, when it could at least be 5. The specific lack of actual innovation seen often just 10 years ago (to modern Apple, innovation means anemic thinness, lack of ports, and exorbitant price tags). The badly designed application interfaces and stylings. Plus, the unbelievably obvious and excessive copy + pasting of almost everything from iOS, like they believe OS X isn't good enough (in reality, they actually don't). They took Back to the Mac way too far, never stopped, and did much less vice-versa in comparison.

And it's not like these issues can be worked around with a drop-in replacement of an older release, because application support from most vendors is dead, iMessage won't work properly, and support + security updates have long ended (which for one, leaves you open to Spectre and Meltdown, to my understanding).

PowerPC Macs aren't hit as bad as early and early-ish Intel Macs because they have a real community and following. There's more life in the Tiger, Leopard, maybe Snow Leopard side than there is anything newer (and still unsupported). We have an updated browser, we have people to ask questions and converse with, we have brainstorming sessions about speeding them up and getting them more capable, we retrofit them with everything we can find, we've got a makeshift thinktank here for carrying them into the modern day with as little problem and pain as feasibly possible...

-

I assume you (or anyone else) have your own complaints about them? Maybe not as many as mine, but nonetheless.

Then again, perhaps I've overstayed my welcome. The thread is called "Do you use OS X's new features?", not "Rant about new OS X versions and what they don't allow you to do."...

 

[Raging Dufus]

Except when you don't like or approve of how its engine runs, and you want it to run a certain way like it used to, but if you make it run like it used to, you render in a much, much more incompatible state just to satisfy your needs. It's a massive tradeoff.

I do see what you mean here, and don't disagree.

But this is a PowerPC forum; and what you're suggesting, in keeping with the car analogy, is replacing the engine outright. If you've ever had to replace any major components of an automobile - particularly the engine - you know that the car's just not ever the same again. That's precisely the experience I've had with Linux (albeit, limited to PPC)... my computer just wasn't the same, nor could I make it satisfactory with the new "engine" in place. I don't always have to have things just the same, improvements that are truly improvements are nice if I'm able to take advantage of them; but if my snazzy new fuel-injected engine stops running intermittently, or for whatever reason simply cannot power my vehicle down roads I need to drive on, or requires me to spend an inordinate amount of time fiddling with it just to get it to work satisfactorily - well, I'd rather have back my good old V8 with the carburetor that, though less powerful, I already know how to tweak enough to get me where I'm going.

Time, however, is on your side; I'll give you that. With every passing year, Linux becomes more unavoidable to me. Just like sooner or later I'm going to have to replace my 23-year-old truck w/240K miles that I'm still nursing along with my shadetree mechanicking, sooner or later I'll be forced off of PowerPC for day-to-day use because the engine options available to me just won't cut it anymore. Linux at that point will (probably) be the only realistic option for someone who values their computing freedom and privacy.

 

[z970]

I do see what you mean here, and don't disagree.

But this is a PowerPC forum; and what you're suggesting, in keeping with the car analogy, is replacing the engine outright. If you've ever had to replace any major components of an automobile - particularly the engine - you know that the car's just not ever the same again. That's precisely the experience I've had with Linux (albeit, limited to PPC)... my computer just wasn't the same, nor could I make it satisfactory with the new "engine" in place. I don't always have to have things just the same, improvements that are truly improvements are nice if I'm able to take advantage of them; but if my snazzy new fuel-injected engine stops running intermittently, or for whatever reason simply cannot power my vehicle down roads I need to drive on, or requires me to spend an inordinate amount of time fiddling with it just to get it to work satisfactorily - well, I'd rather have back my good old V8 with the carburetor that, though less powerful, I already know how to tweak enough to get me where I'm going.

Time, however, is on your side; I'll give you that. With every passing year, Linux becomes more unavoidable to me. Just like sooner or later I'm going to have to replace my 23-year-old truck w/240K miles that I'm still nursing along with my shadetree mechanicking, sooner or later I'll be forced off of PowerPC for day-to-day use because the engine options available to me just won't cut it anymore. Linux at that point will (probably) be the only realistic option for someone who values their computing freedom and privacy.

Because we're talking PowerPC, don't install Linux if OS X Tiger / Leopard works fine for you. These versions have certain advantages earlier Intel releases of OS X don't, one of which being the aforementioned community software support. If you're just fine with where you sit, PowerPC Linux won't offer you much. In it's current state, and for many PowerPC models, it's just broken. If it could sleep Nvidia computers, that might be one thing, but it doesn't. That said, we'll see where the Debian Sid port takes us eventually. Maybe there will one day emerge a breakthrough.

Try Intel Linux, then get back to me. In my experiences, my computer wasn't the same. It was better. I could do more, and (I've brought this up a lot) I don't actively fight it anymore. I'm not sugarcoating it. It's just so refreshing to use a computer that thinks like I do.

But just as well, I will also give you that I don't believe it's 110% prepared for the public yet. By 2020, 2022 maybe, given larger distribution development teams, more donations, a larger following, and greater popularity which equals greater software support, it should be about ready to rock n' roll. Right now, it's probably on the cusp, but it's getting there. LM 20 and eOS 6 will be awesome.

Just keep enjoying Leopard for now. It still works with you and your flow. That's what matters.

 

[AphoticD]

I don't believe it's 110% prepared for the public yet.

Linux has always been unfit for the general public. I’ve been playing with Linux variants on and off since MkLinux on a Nubus Power Macintosh 7100/66, the first generation of PowerPC Mac hardware. I remember finding a zip file on a Mac magazine cover disc which had all of these cryptic looking files and countless text documents with vague instructions targeted for the seasoned Unix user.

It was complex and foreign back then (Compared to System 7 and Mac OS 8). Installation required not only reading the included documentation, but I also needed to grasp an understanding of the fundamentals of *nix, memory, swap, the device tree, etc, which classic Mac OS did so well to hide from the user.

Long story short, modern Linux has made leaps and bounds for the average user to give it a try and actually get along with it.

 

[torvan]

I so wish that Apple had kept the UI of Leopard myself. I know the glassy Dock was panned, but I love the look of it. I have turned off "natural" scrolling, since it is anything but natural.

I have 18 different Macs here, ranging from my first (Mac Plus) to the 2010 Pro and the late 2014 Mini, both are the Macs I use often unless you can call the Hackintosh I built a Mac in which I have a 2017 Mac.

For what I use the most, Quicklook and Spotlight are the only modern features I use most often.