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Do you use SSD's now or plan to buy?

  • I currently have multiple SSD's in my systems

    Votes: 11 5.7%
  • I have one SSD and will likely buy more in the future

    Votes: 21 10.8%
  • I have one SSD and that's enough

    Votes: 6 3.1%
  • I don't own any SSD but plan to buy one soon

    Votes: 35 18.0%
  • I don't own any but may buy one in the next 6-12 months

    Votes: 97 50.0%
  • I don't foresee purchasing an SSD at this point

    Votes: 24 12.4%

  • Total voters
    194
I do wonder to myself will they ever bring out more reliable enterprise grade SSDs offering more stability and higher write cycle lifespans, you think this is possible?? I think the technology is still very new at the moment, they're barely scratching the surface when it comes to capacity, never mind raw performance.
Yes, it's possible. There's already technology in existence, and being refined for such a purpose. FeRAM is one such example, and is defintely got a leg up in terms of write & read reliablility, as it's already capable of 1E16. That's just the gates, no wear leveling or other technique used. :eek: :D However, it needs some work yet (smaller die size).

When we'll see it, or something else though, depends on how long they milk current NAND flash. It won't disappear to give way to something better that quickly. :rolleyes: ;)
 
SSD Write Endurance is so overblown.

If you're a DBA setting up a fast log file or whatever stuff they use then it's something to look at but the rank and file computer user's data is no real threat to SLC SSD and becoming less and less of a threat with MLC SSD.
 
SSD Write Endurance is so overblown.

If you're a DBA setting up a fast log file or whatever stuff they use then it's something to look at but the rank and file computer user's data is no real threat to SLC SSD and becoming less and less of a threat with MLC SSD.
True, but the comments were aimed that type of usage. ;) For the enthusiast user, or any other with far fewer writes than reads, current flash will suffice. :)
 
i bought one 160gb intel today. gonna use it for win7 only.
slot1-4 WD640 and superdrive-empty-slot ssd. a bit worried about the installation, not really good with electronics and iirc slot 1 in my MP was really hard to pull out...
 
It went faster this time for several reasons.
I don't care for whatever reason it came faster, my point is it CAME FASTER, so most of the prediction of the general public including yourself, is way off. Saying it wouldn't be possible to double and half the price soon, I'm telling you, IT JUST DID. I don't believe we need to wait for 3 years.

As stated earlier, you're basing your comments off manufacturer data, computed from a statistical model that only takes into account 90% of the gates, not all of them. So worst case, you can't actually beat physics in which MLC has a UBE of 1E4, and 1E5 for SLC.

It's not that simple my friend. If that were the case, a typical SSD wouldn't even last a month. I suggest that you read anandtech's article, to clarify all your doubts. You're just basing its characteristic, but there are always ways for circumvention.

From anantech's article
"Intel wanted to represent its SSD lifespan as a function of the amount of data written per day, so Intel met with a number of OEMs and collectively they came up with a target figure: 20GB per day. OEMs wanted assurances that a user could write 20GB of data per day to these drives and still have them last, guaranteed, for five years. Intel had no problems with that.

Intel went one step further and delivered 5x what the OEMs requested. Thus Intel will guarantee that you can write 100GB of data to one of its MLC SSDs every day, for the next five years, and your data will remain intact. "

http://www.anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.aspx?i=3403&p=1

The drive has a 3 year warranty, I say in 3 years time we're seeing even cheaper and much faster SSD in the market. I'll just upgrade by then. The beauty of this technology my friend, is that SSD is aware when it will fail. So before it fails, it halts all the write commands. So basically it can guarantee your data to stay intact, even if you can't write on it anymore. You don't even need a backup.

This we definitely agree on.
glad atleast there are some things we agree on :)

Electronic Design Automation. Specifically, National Instruments MultiSIM and LabVIEW suites. I don't work with graphics applications at all. If I had them, I'd have no idea how to use it. I'd have to play around with it, to try and figure it out.
Are you on windows or Virtual Machines? If those programs do require huge space, I suggest that if ever you get an SSD, you moved those programs on a different disk.


Again, see the above issues with the write cycle limitations and how it's modeled. Those 1.5 - 2.0 Mill. hrs for MTBF are a mix of wear leveling and looking at a % of the whole. Not the entire capacity. This also applies to the "hidden" unused capacity for write leveling.
You know why? coz Intel offer 5x what the OEMs requested. That's why their SSD is far superior than any other SSD. Dude as long as I can use my SSD for 5 years, heck even 3, If it will make me productive, I say its definitely worth it.

Those articles were based off corporate estimates at the time they were just coming online, which have always been overly optimistic. I've dealt with fabs, and I've never seen one meet the projections. Not once. Assuming it goes 100% smoothly, 9 months at best, and usually more like a year.
See, you miss the fact that technology becomes cheaper over time. heck even the PS3 is like 70% down the original manufacture price. It's not an estimate if it becomes a reality. Like in the Intel X25M G2, which runs around 229$ know, more than half the price (before was $799) and even faster.
 
my SSD observations

I have a 30GB Vertex in the optical bay space on my new MBP (OS/Apps) and a G1 Intel 80GB for my 1,1 Mac Pro. For a couple weeks I had that Intel drive in a first gen MacBook (cheap Core Duo white plastic) and it brought so much life back into that older system it was insane.

Curiously, I think my old and funky (if you can forgive my non-clinical explanation) installation of Leopard is to blame for some lagginess occasional beachballing I see in the Mac Pro. The Intel makes it faster, for sure, boots faster, apps open WAY faster, spotlight is snappier, but it's not as impressive an upgrade as on my new uMBP. Hard to quantifiy why. I did some side by side app opening and they were extremely close (all under 1 sec) but I still have annoying slowdowns here and there on the Mac Pro. I guess I could think about a fresh OS install, but downloading the updates take forever here (on 512kbps internet) and I'm planning to just tough it out until Snow Leopard.. which seems imminent.

All that to say, it's worth while, imho. XBench went from a disk test score (on my factory-shipped 250GB boot drive) of 38 to 255 with the 80GB Intel. It feels faster, but not 6x faster.
 
I don't care for whatever reason it came faster, my point is it CAME FASTER, so most of the prediction of the general public including yourself, is way off. Saying it wouldn't be possible to double and half the price soon, I'm telling you, IT JUST DID. I don't believe we need to wait for 3 years.
You seem to be under the impression "Well it happened this time, and therefore will continue to do so'. But you're forgetting a few things. The price drop was a result of the new fab process. That's not going to happen every year, as fabs are an expensive proposition, at about $3 Billion USD each. So something else has to happen for prices to continue to lower while the die sized remains fixed (34nm in this case). Production must go up, and for capacity to increase on a fixed die, the layers must be increased (additional cells). Without this fact, they can't lower their costs, and pass any savings on to the consumer via lower prices. Supply issues must be addressed first. You seem oblivious to this fact.

Now assuming they do manage to get the production up quickly, and manage another price drop, it does have the effect of pulling in more purchases = increased market share.

But here's the rub. Let's say they manage the production quantity issue, but what about the increase in capacity per chip? If this doesn't happen quickly enough for the next model release, the cost per chip is still essentially the same. So you can't assume the general trend of 2x capacity @ 1/2 the cost, when part of this equation isn't met.

It's not that simple my friend. If that were the case, a typical SSD wouldn't even last a month. I suggest that you read anandtech's article, to clarify all your doubts. You're just basing its characteristic, but there are always ways for circumvention.
Those numbers are the result of device limitations, or simply put, physics. This remains the same despite wear leveling (it rotates the writes around to keep n writes of each cell similar to one another). It's a compromise solution to solve the issue with the device physics. A rather good one, but does depend on having other unused cells available (the compromise).

Wear leveling applied to a full drive, is only going to get you so far, as once the unused cells are used (the worst case cells 1E4 or 1E5 will go first), you're data will end up corrupted if any single cell fails.

Intel's numbers where based on a statistical analysis that DID NOT include ALL cells. Instead, they only used the 90th percentile, considering the worst case cells as outliers. By doing this, they get to dump the influence these cells would have on the outcome. Simply put, this is manipulated data to generate better specs than what the drive is truly capable.

Now you won't necessarly see this, unless you in fact do fill the drive to 100% capacity, and continue to write the hell out of it. For enterprise users, this is likely not an issue. But there are those interested in SSD now, that it would. There is a solution of course, but it means increased capacities, that sell for higher cost.

The individual does have to balance this out, but the specs don't indicate this, so some users that are unaware, could get burned. Research and a proper understanding of one's usage pattern needs to be well understood.

But to make a blanket statement that it's not an issue at all, is misinformation. The articles you've linked are basing their comments on the assumption (with high odds they're right), the user base (enthusiasts) that's reading their articles won't hit this situation, and Intel's manipulated data will be applicable. This may not always be the case, as the statistical minority (say professionals that have very high write usage) may read the articles.

The drive has a 3 year warranty, I say in 3 years time we're seeing even cheaper and much faster SSD in the market. I'll just upgrade by then. The beauty of this technology my friend, is that SSD is aware when it will fail. So before it fails, it halts all the write commands. So basically it can guarantee your data to stay intact, even if you can't write on it anymore. You don't even need a backup.
You're already using SSD, so you've the option of using what you've got for the next 3 years. :cool: I applaud your willingness to spend early, as it helps push the technological development. I'm also under the impression it's limitations won't affect you at all. :)

And I agree the ceasation of writes is a good idea, but that doesn't make your data safe. :eek: Any such assuption is completely foolish. The fact is, things can happen. Take a PSU failure. If the SSD is attached to a PSU rail that hits "meltdown", say the SSD's power is hit with 120VAC, gues what? That drive and all data contained on it is GONE. If your data isn't critical, then fine. But if that's not the case, skipping on a backup of some sort isn't a smart idea. Despite any statistics on the probablilty of a failure, the reason for having it is for those unusual circumstances, as the data is presumed far more valuable than the system on which it resides. ;)

Are you on windows or Virtual Machines? If those programs do require huge space, I suggest that if ever you get an SSD, you moved those programs on a different disk.
I run Windows primarily, but use Linux when needed, as the EDA software is a case of Windows only for part of it (MultiSIM). LabVIEW is available on multiple OS's, but as I run them simultaneously (PITA to boot back and forth, and VM has issues with the bench test equipment accessibility).

Applications are stored on a SAS RAID 5, and data is another RAID 5, but on SATA disks. Both arrays get backups. The data is irreplacable, so such a setup is warranted. ;) But that's my usage pattern, and may or may not apply to others.

See, you miss the fact that technology becomes cheaper over time. heck even the PS3 is like 70% down the original manufacture price. It's not an estimate if it becomes a reality. Like in the Intel X25M G2, which runs around 229$ know, more than half the price (before was $799) and even faster.
Technology does become less expensive over time, but an estimate is an educated guess, not fact. If it happens, great, but it's not definite, and nothing changes that. PERIOD. If the estimate ends up matching the final result (factual evidence), then it's an accurate prediction, but there's no way to know this before it happens (product release).

I can't count the times I've seen product releases surface, and estimates ensue, to find they didn't match reality. Say the current '09 MP line for example. All the estimates where based on a combination of the '08 model, Intel's quantity price list ($ each @ Q = 1000), and parts costs derived from current offerings at the time. A few products new products as well (e-tailers published board and chip prices prior to the formal release near the end).

None of us imagined the current pricing model, as the estimates where quite a bit lower. So estimates are no guarantee it will be what ends up as reality. Sometimes it's accurate, close, or like landing in Clevland, when the destination was thought to be LA. :p That's why they're only called estimates. It's not absolute or "set in stone" so to speak. ;)
 
It appears that SSD chips are getting the highest priority for 32 nm fabs. They do have product on the market now. The CPUs will only come in some months time if I'm not mistaken. In the CPU business they typically seem to push the manufacturing width in 2 year cycles. So perhaps for SSD memory they will cut this down to 18 months. Based on such a product cycle the next big price cut could come at the end of 2010. In between they would probably make small steps due to yield improvements, better controllers and lower margins from increased competition. So what kind of price step would be logical when they go under 32 nm?
 
It appears that SSD chips are getting the highest priority for 32 nm fabs. They do have product on the market now. The CPUs will only come in some months time if I'm not mistaken. In the CPU business they typically seem to push the manufacturing width in 2 year cycles. So perhaps for SSD memory they will cut this down to 18 months. Based on such a product cycle the next big price cut could come at the end of 2010. In between they would probably make small steps due to yield improvements, better controllers and lower margins from increased competition. So what kind of price step would be logical when they go under 32 nm?
The die shrink cycle of the CPU dies may not extend to other component manufacturing though, given the cost differences between the parts. (Much higher cost per unit will have a larger fab cost component added/included, as well as profit margin).

For the 34nm flash fab, it would take quite a few more parts to pay for the facility. ;)
Looks like OCZ is coming out with a 1TB one.. http://www.electronista.com/articles/09/08/03/ocz.1tb.ssd/ . Pretty pricey. :eek:
That is a tad expensive, even for the enterprise market IMO.

But at least with the format going back to the 3.5" drive format for the large capacity models, it doesn't seem like it's going to disappear all that quickly. :eek: ;) :p
 
That is a tad expensive, even for the enterprise market IMO.

But at least with the format going back to the 3.5" drive format for the large capacity models, it doesn't seem like it's going to disappear all that quickly. :eek: ;) :p


OCZ is NOT an Enterprise company. I doubt they have many companies using this product. Not to mention RAID 0 isn't Enterprise at all. Extra bays are easy to come by.

I'm freakin' ready to see some reports on the Fusion IO IoXtreme it's only 80GB but I want to see if they can hit their 500MBps throughput numbers.
 
OCZ is NOT an Enterprise company. I doubt they have many companies using this product. Not to mention RAID 0 isn't Enterprise at all. Extra bays are easy to come by.

I'm freakin' ready to see some reports on the Fusion IO IoXtreme it's only 80GB but I want to see if they can hit their 500MBps throughput numbers.
The cost is the biggest issue for enterprise usage, but they're interested, and watching the technology unfold. ;)

As for bays, perhaps if one or more is unused, but not the case when they're already full. :eek: Every system has a fixed number, and external may not be a possiblilty due to costs (i.e. hardware controllers and cabling), depending on specifics. ;)

I'm also interested in the Fusion line, but not that particular unit. 320GB Duo on PCIe...Mmmm... :D
 
I don't care for whatever reason it came faster, my point is it CAME FASTER, so most of the prediction of the general public including yourself, is way off. Saying it wouldn't be possible to double and half the price soon, I'm telling you, IT JUST DID. I don't believe we need to wait for 3 years.

extrapolating.png



There's no way that it's commercially feasible for SSDs to gain anything significant either size or speed within the next 12 months, without a massive (near linear or higher) price increase. The one that just happened did so after a very long time of waiting. I guess about 18 to 24 months as is usually the case.

For SSD's to become non-idiotic and cater to any other market segment besides the crazies and the lap-toppers 3 years seems just about right or even a little on the fast side. Three to five years being more inclusive and probably more accurate.



You don't even need a backup.

Bahahahaaaa!!! That'll be the day!
 
There's no way that it's commercially feasible for SSDs to gain anything significant either size or speed within the next 12 months, without a massive (near linear or higher) price increase. The one that just happened did so after a very long time of waiting. I guess about 18 to 24 months as is usually the case.

For SSD's to become non-idiotic and cater to any other market segment besides the crazies and the lap-toppers 3 years seems just about right or even a little on the fast side. Three to five years being more inclusive and probably more accurate....

Tess, you don't own or have ever used a SSD right? You sure are opinionated for having never used one for a week. It's the kind of technology that more often than not, wins converts pretty quickly - all the more when you go back from SSD to archaic spinning platters. Seeing (and using) is believing.

Without question the gig/$ ratio is horrible, although improving remarkably fast as others have tried to point out in this thread. But gig/$ (or sequential read/write) isn't the end all be all of the storage equation - extremely far from it.

To discount 'lap-toppers' as anything other than a major, increasingly dominant segment of the market is a short-sighted mistake. Laptops have overtaken desktop sales and will never look back.

To suggest that the desktop SSD users are exclusively for 'crazies' is just a stunningly foolish thought. That it'll be 3 years before they're 'non-idiotic' is just ridiculous - I hereby ridicule you :p

I paid $255 for an Intel X25-M for my Mac Pro around 6 weeks ago. It's one of 5 hard drives and makes the day to day use of my Mac Pro noticeably quicker and snappier and, having spent over $3,000, for someone to spend another $225 (present Newegg prices) for a massive improvement and virtual elimination of the main bottleneck in computers for the past many years is not idiotic - I would almost go as far as to say abstaining from them is borderline idiotic, except I see some logic in waiting to buy a rapidly-cheapening product. Wait 3 years? You'll be shelling out thousands for a new desktop by then, why not shell out $225 now and get similar, if not greater overall performance gains.
 
Wrong! :p

You also go on to misunderstand just about every point I made. Other than your strawman attempt to disqualify I mean.

Well I don't want to get in a pissing match with you, but I would be interested to know about your usage of a SSD - which one, for how long etc. to understand why you're so outspoken against them.

Ultimately, it seems 90% of the 150 voters don't see things your way, and I would think that many or most of the 15 who want to wait a long time have simply not been exposed to this performance breakthrough in personal computing. Hate to get too non-clinical, but even if they won't make computing incredibly faster (only marginally) it will make it way way 'quicker' if that makes sense.
 
Ultimately, it seems 90% of the 150 voters don't see things your way, and I would think that many or most of the 15 who want to wait a long time have simply not been exposed to this performance breakthrough in personal computing. Hate to get too non-clinical, but even if they won't make computing incredibly faster (only marginally) it will make it way way 'quicker' if that makes sense.
I've the impression those 50% of the voters are enthusiast users, who are what SSD's aimed at for the moment. ;)

They're the fastest drives at random access and sustained throughputs compared to any other SATA based drive. But the $/GB is a major problem for other markets/users. Some just need/want the cost to come down on currently available capacities, while others need larger capacity drives (high write cycle reliablility can figure in here for current flash technology where it could actually be an issue; extra capacity for wear leveling). The later is just too expensive yet, as budgets typically aren't unlimited. :eek: :p So in this area, enterprise or professionals for example, mechanical units in a RAID configuration makes more sense for the specific needs.

So for now, enthusiast users are the primary market funding the SSD market.

Once the cost/GB lowers to what people are willing to spend, it will really start to take off. :)
 
I've the impression those 50% of the voters are enthusiast users, who are what SSD's aimed at for the moment. ;)
.....
So for now, enthusiast users are the primary market funding the SSD market.

Once the cost/GB lowers to what people are willing to spend, it will really start to take off. :)

Yeah I agree with this statement. I think the other area of application is bringing new life to otherwise languishing laptops. As I've posted elsewhere, after an unexpected HDD failure in a Core Duo, first gen MacBook and as a temp fix I put my (desktop-bound) X25-M in it and restored from Time Machine and WOW, it became the quickest-feeling computer I've ever used. And that was a 2.0ghz Core Duo (not C2D) machine with 1.5GB slower memory. I think there could be a great small business of rejuvenating quasi-old laptops (need to have SATA of course) with SSDs.. but again, it's only the enthusiast who's going to know about this, on the whole, so it probably won't creep into the mainstream as soon as it ought to.
 
Yeah I agree with this statement. I think the other area of application is bringing new life to otherwise languishing laptops. As I've posted elsewhere, after an unexpected HDD failure in a Core Duo, first gen MacBook and as a temp fix I put my (desktop-bound) X25-M in it and restored from Time Machine and WOW, it became the quickest-feeling computer I've ever used. And that was a 2.0ghz Core Duo (not C2D) machine with 1.5GB slower memory. I think there could be a great small business of rejuvenating quasi-old laptops (need to have SATA of course) with SSDs.. but again, it's only the enthusiast who's going to know about this, on the whole, so it probably won't creep into the mainstream as soon as it ought to.
I agree it can improve the computing experience on a laptop. :)

As for it becoming so common on them, it still comes down to cost. :( Until SSD can offer say 500GB for ~$60USD retail, I don't think this is going to get so common. Vendors are cheap afterall... ;) :p
 
Until SSD can offer say 500GB for ~$60USD retail, I don't think this is going to get so common. Vendors are cheap afterall... ;) :p

Magnetic drives at 500GB capacity just recently reached $60 price points... and 2.5" form factors... (but not both) after what... 20 years on the market?! If vendors waited for 2.5" 500GB drives to hit $60 before shipping systems with hard drives, all our laptops would still have 3.5" floppy drives for storage!

I don't think SSD's need to get that cheap for them to become mainstream. An 80GB drive for $60 is probably only two years off and then I expect you will see even low-end laptops (which make up the bulk of the consumer market) ship with an SSD as standard.
 
Magnetic drives at 500GB capacity just recently reached $60 price points... and 2.5" form factors... (but not both) after what... 20 years on the market?! If vendors waited for 2.5" 500GB drives to hit $60 before shipping systems with hard drives, all our laptops would still have 3.5" floppy drives for storage!
:p

Vendors are greedy though, and want the cheapest thing they can stuff in a machine (mainstream, not highend). ;)

I don't think SSD's need to get that cheap for them to become mainstream. An 80GB drive for $60 is probably only two years off and then I expect you will see even low-end laptops (which make up the bulk of the consumer market) ship with an SSD as standard.
What keeps popping up in my mind, is it will depend on how quickly Intel-Micron and other vendors such as Samsung, can get the 34 & 30nm parts (respectively) up to production capacity.

It might not get to the level needed to push price drops that quickly, so I'm thinking it could add a year for the production to reach those levels.

If they manage to do that rather quickly, and not end up with high rejection rates, the cost will fall faster, and meet the more aggressive predictions (i.e. 2x capacity @ 1/2 cost per year). Fabs are super expensive, and not the easiest things to get to max production with high yields. Keeping the costs high longer than predicted may not be a choice.
 
FYI, Newegg DOES have 2.5" form-factor IDE SSDs, but only two companies make them. Transcend and Super-Talent.

What is the point in that?

:p

Vendors are greedy though, and want the cheapest thing they can stuff in a machine (mainstream, not highend). ;)


What keeps popping up in my mind, is it will depend on how quickly Intel-Micron and other vendors such as Samsung, can get the 34 & 30nm parts (respectively) up to production capacity.

It might not get to the level needed to push price drops that quickly, so I'm thinking it could add a year for the production to reach those levels.

If they manage to do that rather quickly, and not end up with high rejection rates, the cost will fall faster, and meet the more aggressive predictions (i.e. 2x capacity @ 1/2 cost per year). Fabs are super expensive, and not the easiest things to get to max production with high yields. Keeping the costs high longer than predicted may not be a choice.


Hopefully the recent recall on the Intel SSDs is not the standard path for SSDs going forward. As SSDs grow in size and drop in price I am hoping mostly that this will ultimately drive down HDD prices as faster SSDs come down to compete.
 
What is the point in that?

The point is that there is such a thing as IDE solid-state drives, and that it is an upgrade option for people with IDE laptops; Nightfly13 made a comment that inferred solid-state drives were limited to SATA.

Furthermore, I can understand that IDE limits the amount of data transferred, but it is an upgrade option to be considered for other reasons, such as durability.
 
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