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I think some people have to be poor. (most) People always try to make things as good as they can for themselves and that means screwing other people over to have more, there isn't enough for everyone. The activists who try to fight poverty in Africa or the Middle East are fighting the impossible battle because the majority of the rich/leaders of the world would never let those people have even a fraction of what they have.

its like war, a lot of people always push for a world with no conflict. Humans have been killing eachother for food, or things or just pieces of dirt for thousands of years and we certainly aren't going to just stop...always makes me wonder how long we will last as a species if we kill eachother over an invisible man in the clouds who governs us all through his cosmic powers...
 
If you consider the "Welfare" of a population to include income, access to social services, and personal security which is one of the criteria used by World Bank Studies, I don't know that there's a silver bullet solution to abject poverty, particularly in those underdeveloped countries where the average, annual income doesn't exceed $US1200.

If, in this case, "have to" is taken to mean "without choice" I would take issue with some of the reasons listed. It isn't always "mismanagement", "laziness" and "lack of resolve" when environmentally, people are feeling threatened with violence, are generally unhealthy and have no personal tools with which to pry open the restrictive lid and stigma. Literacy rates and prenatal care in countries where general educational requirements are encouraged are rising. But in a large portion of Latin American cities, less than 10% of those who do manage to graduate from "secundaria" are afforded the luxury to continue their studies.
 
panoz7 said:
Try reading Atlas Shrugged... it has been one of the most influential books I've read. It pretty much addresses your ideas from one point of view.

Who is John Galt?
 
OnceUGoMac said:
Who is John Galt?
Between "Scottish Novelist", and "the voice of President Johnson in Forest Gump", I think they're referring to the former. :p
 
StokeLee said:
But if education went on longer, then more people would be educated to a higher standard. The job/career would be fully known, no debt incurred.

I'm inclined to think that though society as a whole would benefit from a higher level of education, the unemployment issue would remain largely the same. i.e. sometimes there still would be more employees than there are jobs. The only difference is the unemployed would be better educated.

Assuming we're still talking about capitalism...
 
quigleybc said:
Agreed.

And if I happen to flick a cigarette into one of the many Ferrari and Bentley convertibles I see parked all over the place...then....ooops...:(
You obviously aren't from da' hood.


:p
 
The Mad Kiwi said:
People don't have to be poor.

Poor people are poor because they spend more than they earn, simple.

If they want to change this situation, then they have to either earn more, or spend less, or better still both.

Now why poor people don't do this is they are lazy, stupid or unlucky, sometimes all 3.

I know people who earn over 150k a year and are still poor, go figure.


NO...not true..some people are born in a place were they don't have enough fresh water, or food. Were you live, people can get food or water when ever they need it(Water is free and easy to get in american, and food is very cheap, not always healthly but if your starving its good)

Your narrow view is shocking!
 
StokeLee said:
But if education went on longer, then more people would be educated to a higher standard.

I like your ideals, but this probably isn't true. Fact is, if we extended free public education beyond the 12th grade (and I'm reading this as "extending high school") you'd see a skyrocketing dropout rate and, in my opinion, a decreased quality of education.

Fact is, when kids go from high school to college, they recognize that they're not only becoming more responsible for their own education, but also that the expectations involved in that education have changed. There's important psychological buy in and an assumed motivation.

Such that:

I bet the typical college classroom is filled with students who manifest better in classroom behavior than you'd find in most public high schools (certainly than in mine, and, from what I'm gathering, better than iSaint's as well).

We need to make everyone believe in the power and potential of education -- heck, if we could do that, we might do our kids a service by shortening it some.
 
StokeLee said:
i mean there is no money.

Money is an accepted medium of exchange. In prisons cigarettes are used as money, in some tribal cultures shells were used as money. I fail to see how any system would work without currency, otherwise how do I get "payment" to buy a carton of milk from picking up garbage? Is it a state-issued coupon? Because that would essentially become money. Look at food-stamps in America. There are certain restrictions on them, such as no tobacco or alcohol. People with food-stamps will often trade their stamps for cash so they can purchase these things; in this case the food stamp becomes a form of currency.

I just fail to see how a system will work without money. Unless of course we all become completely self-sufficient, or learn to barter without a medium of exchange (but that becomes hard when you need a car battery but can only offer elective surgery in exchange). If you're talking about a pure marxist kind of thing, the problem is that (a) there is no incentive to work hard if you will never be rewarded (b) the people in charge tend to abuse power.

There are different types of equality as well. Typically the US frames the question you are asking in terms of equality of opportunity vs. equality of condition. If I'm reading you right then you are advocating a form of equality of condition (i.e. making everyone now have equal lifestyles, the same amount of wealth, etc.), whereas equality of opportunity states that everyone ought to have an equal opportunity for success, and that people who work hard, smart, better will have better lives because of that fact, but the guy who wants to do less demanding tasks won't live as well (although he had the same opportunity to do so). I'm not saying we live in a world where equality of opportunity exists, only that this type of equality seems like a better solution to me, and that perhaps striving towards that goal ought to be the primary aim.

Ways to improve equality of opportunity include improving schools (to the point where kids in the inner city get the same quality education that kids in the suburbs get). Also getting rid of "legacy admission" at colleges where the parents can donate enough money to ensure their child's acceptance into the top schools (even if that means rejecting someone more worthy). Some may even say that free higher education to all would be a natural extension of this type of equality.

Just some food for thought StokeLee. Of course getting rid of poverty is a beautiful dream. I think that perhaps narrowing the gap between the richest people and the poorest people may be worth pursuing. Also the word poverty itself has many different meanings, but ensuring that all people have all their basic needs is a beautiful dream; perhaps we don't all have to be "equal" for this to happen though. Perhaps improvements in medicine, agriculture, engineering, education, birth control and other areas will make this dream a reality one day (without having to resort to marxism).
 
StokeLee said:
Some people have billions, some people nothing. How much would everyone have if it was all shared out?

The way you're approaching it can't work - you would end up with too much money chasing too few goods. Remember, there isn't an infinite number of products for money to buy, and you'd end up with inflation.

At least, that's on a really basic level, with other factors removed. The US pays farmers to destroy crops every year, to maintain prices. It's really a complicated economic situation.

StokeLee said:
Its a shame that we all cant be equal. The person who performs brain surgery is just as needed as the person who collects his trash. I know all about economics,, im not talking about that. And i know theres lots of other factors out there. Profits for different business's depend on development. Which woouldnt come if there was no profit as there would be no demand...

I don't know about us all being equal, but I think that there are a lot of hard working people that are undercompensated. Not garbage collectors (those guys make more than you might think) but like inner-city school teachers.

A quote from Warren Buffet:

"I personally think that society is responsible for a very significant percentage of what I've earned. If you stick me down in the middle of Bangladesh or Peru or someplace, you find out how much this talent is going to produce in the wrong kind of soil... I work in a market system that happens to reward what I do very well - disproportionately well. Mike Tyson, too. If you can knock a guy out in 10 seconds and earn $10 million for it, this world will pay a lot for that. If you can bat .360, this world will pay a lot for that. If you're a marvelous teacher, this world won't pay a lot for it. If you are a terrific nurse, this world will not pay a lot for it. Now, am I going to try to come up with some comparable worth system that somehow (re)distributes that. No, I don't think you can do that. But I do think that when you're treated enormously well by this market system, where in effect the market system showers the ability to buy goods and services on you because of some peculiar talent - maybe your adenoids are a certain way, so you can sing and everybody will pay you enormous sums to be on television or whatever - I think society has a big claim on that."
 
The Mad Kiwi said:
Poor people are poor because they spend more than they earn, simple.

No, not so simple. People are poor because they don't earn enough to live off of. They may not spend more than they earn, but if they don't earn enough for food, clothing, shelter, healthcare, etc, then they're poor.
 
ZoomZoomZoom said:
At least, that's on a really basic level, with other factors removed. The US pays farmers to destroy crops every year, to maintain prices. It's really a complicated economic situation.

Ironically, the US pays farmers to destroy their crops so that the farmers won't starve :(
Namely because farmers are a very powerful lobbying organization.
That's not so complicated.

To the OP: whatever you may think...keep in mind that there is no reason for anyone, anywhere to starve to death. How about we conquer this hurdle first?
 
dornoforpyros said:
It all comes down to what Darwin was talking about folks.

I hope you're joking. Social Darwinism [wikilink] has been debunked for over a century.

Darwinism is a concept that starting from an *equal* start, there are certain evolutions that allow certain species to be more successful in their niche.

It fails to adequately describe human society, since some people are born with silver spoons in their mouths. Social Darwinism blatantly ignore issues of race/class/gender oppression- structural problems in society that enable certain people to get ahead while holding others back.

I believe that while no one *has* to be poor, and no one ought to be, there will always be, since no society can compensate for people who cannot help themselves.
 
StokeLee said:
How much money is there in the world?

Some people have billions, some people nothing. How much would everyone have if it was all shared out?

Its a shame that we all cant be equal. The person who performs brain surgery is just as needed as the person who collects his trash. I know all about economics,, im not talking about that. And i know theres lots of other factors out there. Profits for different business's depend on development. Which woouldnt come if there was no profit as there would be no demand...

Its just a thought

What do you think?
A fair days work, for an equal share. No matter what you do
Good point, but what if you bring something more to the table than the next person? Say I have three degrees one of them is an advanced degree. Should I be paid the same? What if what I can do isn't the same as the next person? So I should get $100 a day for taking out the trash while someone gets $100 for saving people's lives?
 
StokeLee said:
How much money is there in the world?

Some people have billions, some people nothing. How much would everyone have if it was all shared out?

Its a shame that we all cant be equal. The person who performs brain surgery is just as needed as the person who collects his trash. I know all about economics,, im not talking about that. And i know theres lots of other factors out there. Profits for different business's depend on development. Which woouldnt come if there was no profit as there would be no demand...

Its just a thought

What do you think?
A fair days work, for an equal share. No matter what you do


Pretty communistic. Anybody can pick up trash but not anybody can do brain surgery
 
dukebound85 said:
Anybody can pick up trash but not anybody can do brain surgery
Very true.

Nothing against trash collectors -- a buddy of mine grew his business and became very successful. In fact, some are very well off financially (independent types).

Not everyone can do everything. There is a difference in people and their capabilities. Those who have needed/desired specialties should be justly compensated.

Reminds me of a joke where a company has a large piece of equipment that breaks. No one knows how to fix it except a retired fellow. So they contact him to come back to fix the problem. He places an "X" mark where they need to fix the problem.

He then gives them a bill for $50,000. The company says that since it is so costly they are going to need an itemized bill. He gives them the following:

Total --> $50,000

Chalk mark --> $1

Knowing were to put the chalk mark --> $49,999
 
sushi said:
Reference please.

To what? It's well known the US pays farmers not to produce. This keeps up prices of agricultural goods, which makes farmers better off. The farmers have lobbied for this, and it's a very hard policy to overturn.




Also: the average US household spends $30 per year more on sugar than they should, due to a sugar import quota.
 
hmmm, I might have to call BS.

People with money are no better off than those without.
First, I don't remember CASH being on the list of things I need to survive...
Food, water, air, shelter... no- no money on that list.

Finances are a trick that smarter people have used on less-smart people for thousands of years to keep them subserviant.


The world can operate exactly like this without money. If you have a job you get options and supplies. If you don't then you get nothing. This would take a lot of time to explain here, but it would work. I guarantee.

So what do all you want money for? Happiness? That's what friends and family are. They come free.

Rich, poor, you're just fooling yourself into submission.
 
The only ways a world would work without money has been stated above.
1. Either everyone is self-sufficient
2. Or everyone barters
 
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