Don't buy AppleCare on Ebay

[GoCubsGo]

My point is this: I buy a code right after I buy my hardware. To my knowledge I purchased from an individual that has the boxed Applecare product in hand, but I only get the code to save on shipping costs. And that is exactly what I thought happened when I bought mine... I go online and register the code and it works perfectly. Apple e-mails me a letter that my hardware is covered and as far as I'm concerned it's a done deal.

For a year, every day I can log on Apple's website and see that my gear is covered. Another year goes by and I can still see that my gear is covered. Now suddenly my hardware breaks so I call Apple. They now tell me that my code wasn't legit and I am not covered.

Yes in this scenario I believe that Apple is at fault. They bear some burden of responsibility to notify me that I have purchased an invalid code BEFORE they send me an e-mail to validate my initial Applecare transaction. If they don't catch it then somehow, they had a full year to figure it out before my window of opportunity closes (to make it right by re-purchasing the coverage).

I think that the "well it wasn't a certified Apple dealer" or whatever wouldn't be enough to get them off the hook.

Yes but that is not how you outlined it before. I get what you're saying and I would hope for the same, but frankly it's not going to be the case. 2 years in if your hardware fails and you have no AC you can scream all you want but Apple will be the ones to have the say in whether or not the repair.

You cannot force their hand to repair and by the time you take them to court you would have saved up enough to buy another machine.

I'll admit the COC being mailed to me gives me enough false hope to think I'm covered. The failure to provide proof of purchase on my end will be the failure on my part and ultimately what will kill the deal. One may hope that this doesn't have to happen, but I am not delusional.

 

[brentsg]

Yes but that is not how you outlined it before. I get what you're saying and I would hope for the same, but frankly it's not going to be the case. 2 years in if your hardware fails and you have no AC you can scream all you want but Apple will be the ones to have the say in whether or not the repair.

You cannot force their hand to repair and by the time you take them to court you would have saved up enough to buy another machine.

I'll admit the COC being mailed to me gives me enough false hope to think I'm covered. The failure to provide proof of purchase on my end will be the failure on my part and ultimately what will kill the deal. One may hope that this doesn't have to happen, but I am not delusional.

Well that's how I intended it to read last time. I didn't go back and read it but, meh.

Anyways if they do it to an individual then small claims court might be worthwhile. If they do it en masse then perhaps it's a class action someone will pursue.

But I view the latter almost like the EULA stuff. I didn't get the fine print about proof of purchase and authorized dealers until AFTER I had plunked down my money. At that point they stuff it in the confirmation letter and it's too late.

 

[tivoboy]

Macmel,

It is not true. Look the discount at Amazon or LA Computer. Is it not a small one, it is 30%-40%.

Best.

not sure, I don't think any retailer has been able to offer a discount on apple products more than 10%, or in the form of a rebate, again not exceeding 10%.

Other than on complete close outs, which they are at liberty to discount further.

are you saying software and applecare can be had for 30-40% off at amazon?

 

[Macky-Mac]

Well that's how I intended it to read last time. I didn't go back and read it but, meh.

Anyways if they do it to an individual then small claims court might be worthwhile. If they do it en masse then perhaps it's a class action someone will pursue.

But I view the latter almost like the EULA stuff. I didn't get the fine print about proof of purchase and authorized dealers until AFTER I had plunked down my money. At that point they stuff it in the confirmation letter and it's too late.

You may have been an unwitting dupe in a scheme to defraud apple, but I doubt any court is going to enrich you at apple's expense just because you were a victim too....you'll have to sue the guy that sold you the fake applecare. If you can't prove apple got any money from you, then I doubt any court is going to rule that apple owes you anything in return for nothing

 

[brentsg]

You may have been an unwitting dupe in a scheme to defraud apple, but I doubt any court is going to enrich you at apple's expense just because you were a victim too....you'll have to sue the guy that sold you the fake applecare. If you can't prove apple got any money from you, then I doubt any court is going to rule that apple owes you anything in return for nothing

The point is that 100% of the liability probably won't fall upon one entity. And I don't think it's "enrichment" that the consumer would be looking for. It's simply fairness. When Apple confirms the code and sends out a letter that your machine is certified, they have entered into the agreement in my opinion. At that point the consumer has a reasonable expectation to believe their machine is covered.

At any rate we can debate this forever and it's all just hypothetical jabber by people with no legal background. And even if someone with a legal background weighs in ... even that is just one educated opinion. I've seen firsthand that what a judge or a jury might do doesn't always make sense. In almost every firsthand experience that I've had, I've found that the courts seem to almost LOOK for a way to rule for the consumer in a "little guy vs. big guy" lawsuit.

 

[Macky-Mac]

The point is that 100% of the liability probably won't fall upon one entity. And I don't think it's "enrichment" that the consumer would be looking for. It's simply fairness. When Apple confirms the code and sends out a letter that your machine is certified, they have entered into the agreement in my opinion. At that point the consumer has a reasonable expectation to believe their machine is covered.

At any rate we can debate this forever and it's all just hypothetical jabber by people with no legal background. And even if someone with a legal background weighs in ... even that is just one educated opinion. I've seen firsthand that what a judge or a jury might do doesn't always make sense. In almost every firsthand experience that I've had, I've found that the courts seem to almost LOOK for a way to rule for the consumer in a "little guy vs. big guy" lawsuit.

well it would be "enrichment" because you're asking apple to give you the value of something that you didn't pay them for....they got none of your money....but you want all of the benefits of the product just as though you had paid them. How would that be fair to them?

when apple gave out that certificate they did so in good faith thinking you had actually paid for the product. They didn't know they were getting scammed. It was an agreement based on a fraud though, so it's going to be worthless.

It's "unfair" to be the victim of a scam and that's true whether it's you or apple. If you want "fairness" then you need to get it from the scammer and not the other victim of the scam. Sue the scammer.....maybe apple will loan you a lawyer to help (of course first you'll have to convince apple that YOU aren't the scammer.....)

and of course we're just having fun speculating about what would happen if somebody sued

 

[Detektiv-Pinky]

well it would be "enrichment" because you're asking apple to give you the value of something that you didn't pay them for....they got none of your money....but you want all of the benefits of the product just as though you had paid them. How would that be fair to them?

when apple gave out that certificate they did so in good faith thinking you had actually paid for the product. They didn't know they were getting scammed. It was an agreement based on a fraud though, so it's going to be worthless.

It's "unfair" to be the victim of a scam and that's true whether it's you or apple. If you want "fairness" then you need to get it from the scammer and not the other victim of the scam. Sue the scammer.....maybe apple will loan you a lawyer to help (of course first you'll have to convince apple that YOU aren't the scammer.....)

and of course we're just having fun speculating about what would happen if somebody sued

Technically I agree with you, however, I fail to understand why Apple is turning a blind eye to this issue:

1. They could issue cryptographically generated serial numbers that can not be forged.

2. I, and probably others, have communicated these issues to Apple - they choose to do nothing against those sellers at eBay.

3. They probably already suffer from this scam. As you said Apple has probably not seen any penny from these AppleCare contracts, but as long as they themselves do fail to recognise the scam, they might just repair your defective machine 'for free'.

4. It is only AppleCustomers that are affected. No Windows user bought such a contract.

So this are 4 reasons Apple should care and end this scam.

 

[brentsg]

well it would be "enrichment" because you're asking apple to give you the value of something that you didn't pay them for....they got none of your money....but you want all of the benefits of the product just as though you had paid them. How would that be fair to them?

when apple gave out that certificate they did so in good faith thinking you had actually paid for the product. They didn't know they were getting scammed. It was an agreement based on a fraud though, so it's going to be worthless.

You are jumping to the conclusion that they didn't get paid. We don't know that. For all we know these were legitimate codes that found their way into a non-authorized retail channel. So they may have been paid, and they may be invalidating them because they found their way onto Ebay... which is not an authorized vendor.

Again, the key point of my argument is that they have an opportunity to notify me that they do not recognize my code for whatever reason. At this point in the transaction they can let me know I've been scammed and the deal is done. But no... they send me a letter stating that I'm covered.

You don't think there is some shift in the responsibility at this point? They can't simply sit tight and let someone falsely believe that they have warranty coverage for perhaps years... before they disclose this.

 

[Macky-Mac]

Technically I agree with you, however, I fail to understand why Apple is turning a blind eye to this issue:

......So this are 4 reasons Apple should care and end this scam.

I completely agree with you; those are all good reasons.....and there are plenty of good reasons why ebay should be working to end the countless scams that turn up on their site. Indeed, this probably hurts ebay more than apple.

You are jumping to the conclusion that they didn't get paid. We don't know that. .....

yes, maybe they've been paid....or not...which is why they ask you for a receipt, or some proof from the packing material.......and of course the consumer is going to make sure they get a receipt because that's just basic common sense practice for consumers....spend a lot of money and not get a receipt? What intelligent consumer does that? If they have their proof then they get their applecare.

Again, the key point of my argument is that they have an opportunity to notify me that they do not recognize my code for whatever reason. At this point in the transaction they can let me know I've been scammed and the deal is done. But no... they send me a letter stating that I'm covered.

well if they know it's fake at the time you go to register the code, then obviously they should reject it then.....but do they know that? You're jumping to the conclusion that they do.

I don't think anybody knows anything for sure about when apple apple comes to suspect somebody's code is a fake...Nobody knows how Apple spots fakes.....or what percentage of fakes Apple spots...or much about what's going at all.

 

[jrusch]

I bought my AppleCare on Craigslist. The guy I bought it from said he bought it but couldn't use it because his laptop was a few days past the original 1 year warranty.

We couldn't agree on a time/place to meet so he suggested that he just email me the code. I was concerned about doing it that way, but he told me once I entered the code I would get a certificate from Apple confirming my warranty. Sure enough, a few days later I got the certificate. All was well.

Then I found this thread. When I first read it I checked my AC status online and it was still valid. A few weeks later I checked again, it was still valid. On Monday I checked again and it was gone!

I do feel Apple is to blame for this. Do you really expect me to believe that a "high-tech" computer company can't figure out a better way to prevent fraud with their warranty program?

I am an IT professional and have supported IBM/Lenovo Thinkpad laptops for over 15 years. We always buy the extended warranty with them. Not once has it been removed after being applied. All you have to do is go to Lenovo's web site, enter the laptop serial number, and you will be given the warranty expiration date. And you can trust it.

Now that isn't so with AppleCare. What if I would have sold my MacBook when the AppleCare was still showing as valid on Apple's web site? The buyer would have paid a little extra thinking it was still covered under the warranty.

I have had AC on other products, mainly iPods. I've had to send them in for service. Never once was I asked for proof of warranty, it was registered so it was covered.

I wonder how many people have purchased AC direct from Apple or an authorized reseller and no longer have the original package it came in. Would Apple be within their rights to deny you AC coverage, if they asked for proof and you didn't have it?

 

[brentsg]

I don't think anybody knows anything for sure about when apple apple comes to suspect somebody's code is a fake...Nobody knows how Apple spots fakes.....or what percentage of fakes Apple spots...or much about what's going at all.

But the thing that you are disregarding is that Apple and Apple alone is responsible for delivering the product and ensuring that it is legitimate. They control the methodology that the keys are generated with, so if that has been compromised then they bear that burden and not the consumer. In addition, Apple controls the supply chain as well. So essentially if Apple's delivery mechanism has been compromised then it's up to them to recognize it and correct it. If the legitimate product has made it to unauthorized vendors that they will not recognize then they must correct that as well. We know they are aware of the Ebay situation and it doesn't look like they are correcting it.

So essentially Apple NEEDS to recognize the non-legit keys up front. We know it's possible because they are apparently able to do it later on in the process.

 

[GoCubsGo]

But the thing that you are disregarding is that Apple and Apple alone is responsible for delivering the product and ensuring that it is legitimate. They control the methodology that the keys are generated with, so if that has been compromised then they bear that burden and not the consumer. In addition, Apple controls the supply chain as well. So essentially if Apple's delivery mechanism has been compromised then it's up to them to recognize it and correct it. If the legitimate product has made it to unauthorized vendors that they will not recognize then they must correct that as well. We know they are aware of the Ebay situation and it doesn't look like they are correcting it.

So essentially Apple NEEDS to recognize the non-legit keys up front. We know it's possible because they are apparently able to do it later on in the process.

Are you serious? Apple is not 100% responsible.

 

[Fishrrman]

RE: Don't buy AppleCare on Ebay

I've been following this thread off-and-on.

Looks like the only "good" AppleCare is that which comes in a _sealed_ package. Anything else can be suspect.

I had considered going to ebay for "email AppleCare", but I'm going to speculate that ANY form of "email AppleCare" (i.e., a code number without a package) is almost certainly bogus - that is to say, created from "code generation" or by some other means.

That doesn't mean Apple won't honor a bogus code number. Indeed they may, but only because _they_ haven't yet detected the number to be a fake, not because it isn't one.

There has been at least one ebay seller who has posted on this thread, but until he is willing to say exactly HOW he obtains his code numbers, how can one be assured that the AppleCare code he gives you is any more legitimate than the ones from those users who report here that they've been defrauded?

As one who will may be needing AppleCare for a new MacBook Pro, looks like the best solution will be a "boxed copy" from a place like L.A. Computer Center, unless I can find another source.....

- John

 

[jaw04005]

What boggles me about the entire AppleCare problem is you would think it would be worth Apple's time and the miniscule cost of a "complimentary" AppleCare agreement to get evidence about the person carrying out the fraud including the person's eBay ID, auction ID, e-mail, etc.

I feel the same way about the iTunes scam.

Sounds like a bureaucracy problem where individual divisions don't bother speaking to each other.

 

[brentsg]

Are you serious? Apple is not 100% responsible.

So please tell me who besides Apple is responsible for ensuring that their key algorithm hasn't been cracked?

Some have alleged that their are bogus keys floating around that register just fine on the Apple website. Who besides Apple themselves is responsible for ensuring that doesn't happen, because that should be essentially the last line of defense.

Looks like the only "good" AppleCare is that which comes in a _sealed_ package. Anything else can be suspect.

At this point I would agree with this. Unfortunately when I bought mine... almost a year ago now... all the data I could find on the subject was that Ebay was a great place to buy Applecare. There were a lot of positive experiences to read about, and the sellers had near 100% feedback with HUGE numbers of transactions.

Fast forward a year or so and a lot of them have lost their accounts.

 

[Sartre]

When everyone is checking their Applecare status they should do it by entering their Mac's serial number here. I reckon Apple are having server problems which is why some people's Applecare isn't showing up in their accounts. Mine shows up when I enter the serial number but when I login in it tells me I have no agreements registered.

 

[hak187]

When everyone is checking their Applecare status they should do it by entering their Mac's serial number here. I reckon Apple are having server problems which is why some people's Applecare isn't showing up in their accounts. Mine shows up when I enter the serial number but when I login in it tells me I have no agreements registered.

I went to the spot on apple's website where I normally check my applecare as well, and it did not list the applecare that I had bought on ebay (my only applecare).

I then entered my serial # for my macbook, and it does show that it is still under warranty until 2011, so there is obviously issues on apple's website right now.

 

[Detektiv-Pinky]

What boggles me about the entire AppleCare problem is you would think it would be worth Apple's time and the miniscule cost of a "complimentary" AppleCare agreement to get evidence about the person carrying out the fraud including the person's eBay ID, auction ID, e-mail, etc.

I feel the same way about the iTunes scam.

Sounds like a bureaucracy problem where individual divisions don't bother speaking to each other.

I think it is the whole corporate culture to blame. Apples, as well as PayPal and eBay. I do no longer think Apple is the good guy in this game - they are effectively in denial mode. I have spoken on the phone to different people at Apple. I have outlined the complete case in a lengthy email including all transaction details etc.
They have responded to me, showing that they are aware of the issue - still no action. Their recommendation was that I should take PayPal/eBay to court. I have better things to do with my time and money.

It needs some serious media coverage here before anything changes. To bad it is only such a miniscule user population that is affected - nothing newsworthy. Only if some large media corporation is taking it up and Apple feels that their public image is threatened will they act. We have seen the same pattern with the iTunes scam and several cases of defective products....

 

[Macky-Mac]

But the thing that you are disregarding is that Apple and Apple alone is responsible for delivering the product and ensuring that it is legitimate...... In addition, Apple controls the supply chain as well. So essentially if Apple's delivery mechanism has been compromised then it's up to them to recognize it and correct it......

yes, and one way they are working on the problem is to ask people to verify that they bought the product through legitimate channels by showing a copy of their receipt. Pretty low tech and old fashioned, but it's also a pretty well established technique......you have a receipt for the purchase, then you get the product....can't prove you bought legitimate product, then you don't get it

 

[Sartre]

My Applecare is now showing up again under "View your agreements".

 

[chewbaccacabra]

My Applecare is now showing up again under "View your agreements".

Mine is as well! Okay that's a load off my mind . . . for now.

Apple's fault not Macman 812!

 

[brentsg]

yes, and one way they are working on the problem is to ask people to verify that they bought the product through legitimate channels by showing a copy of their receipt. Pretty low tech and old fashioned, but it's also a pretty well established technique......you have a receipt for the purchase, then you get the product....can't prove you bought legitimate product, then you don't get it

Then they need to request this proof so they can establish from day one whether or not the agreement is valid. This would be a very simple thing to do. It is not acceptable for them to function in denial mode and only take action after a consumer is out of their 1 year standard warranty (ie take action when the consumer needs a repair under Applecare).

Low tech and old fashioned is fine but the timing is important.

And for what it's worth, I just reviewed all of the documentation that is available regarding Applecare on their website. This would include the official terms and conditions. Never does it refer to any official supply chain, official dealer/retailer, etc.

It simply says I need my gear registered, and that I need to keep my proof of purchase and the letter that they send to me. So essentially I have properly registered, received my letter of coverage confirmation, and my receipt.

Edit: Instead of saying "never" I should say that I can't find any reference after reading it a couple of times.

 

[Detektiv-Pinky]

Then they need to request this proof so they can establish from day one whether or not the agreement is valid. This would be a very simple thing to do. It is not acceptable for them to function in denial mode and only take action after a consumer is out of their 1 year standard warranty (ie take action when the consumer needs a repair under Applecare).

Low tech and old fashioned is fine but the timing is important.

And for what it's worth, I just reviewed all of the documentation that is available regarding Applecare on their website. This would include the official terms and conditions. Never does it refer to any official supply chain, official dealer/retailer, etc.

It simply says I need my gear registered, and that I need to keep my proof of purchase and the letter that they send to me. So essentially I have properly registered, received my letter of coverage confirmation, and my receipt.

Edit: Instead of saying "never" I should say that I can't find any reference after reading it a couple of times.

And your proof of purchase with eBay is what?

 

[brentsg]

And your proof of purchase with eBay is what?

My Paypal receipt from the Paypal history. It clearly states what was purchased and who the vendor was.... the date, etc.

 

[caonimadebi]

i bought the ibook/macbook AC(MA519LL/A) for $92 USD on ebay (it came sealed in the retail box) and registered my macbook air rev B. It almost felt too good to be true, but so far I haven't had any problems. I will definitely hold on to the box having read this thread.