Drive Failed, considering hybrid - what to look out for?

[FrtzPeter]

What would be nice would be thread describing the different types of media available, performance data, and plusses and minuses. There's no doubt SSDs performance far exceeds HDs, but the cost is killer. Let's face the facts, before SSDs we were all used to the response times of old HDs and yet no one really complained.

You can find articles like that on e-zines and other web sites, but to often I just get the impression it's influenced by advertisers.

 

[grahamperrin]

… SSDs performance far exceeds HDs, but the cost is killer. …

When I chose an SSHD the extra cost, compared to an HDD with the same capacity, was negligible. £10 or £15, something like that.

I don't know about costs now but back then, the choice was very easy to make.

I suspect that SSHDs were not more widely used because they were not immediately available in some situations.

 

[ZVH]

It dawned on me that no one has mentioned RAID.

Is RAID now considered dead? What other high speed or hybrid options are there (a general question to anyone interested)?

 

[TheBSDGuy]

I don't think RAID is dead, just more or less limited to a niche audience, most likely people that want higher speeds out of large HDs. With I/O speeds today, for it to be competitive it really needs to be either an Apple RAID internal to something like a Mac Pro, which is now impossible with the newer Mac Pro's since they can't be opened, or someone using a Thunderbolt port.

I suppose someone could put together an external RAID with SSDs using a Thunderbolt or eSata interface, but just think of the costs, hence "niche audience." With something like that I imagine you could push the I/O limits of a new Mac Pro, but it would cost a fortune.

 

[grahamperrin]

Ot: Raid

… no one has mentioned RAID. …

RAID was mentioned in three posts but it's not a good fit with discussion of hybrid drives.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_drive

 

[BradHatter]

I don't own this thread though….. but it would be great if this could be turned into some type of reference thread for people interested.

That would be fine with me. I could change the title of the thread, I think. But can this site be used to create a list that would stand out and be editable over time? A list of links to resources like drive stats and reviews would be helpful. This way instead of just reading one review an interested party could have a myriad of reference materials to look at.

That really wold be useful.

 

[ZVH]

Well, after thinking about it a little, maybe it's not such a good idea. I did a list of drive related testing products some time ago and it's probably a few dozen products. With HDs, SSDs, SSHDs etc. that could probably turn into hundreds if not thousands of entries.

I'll give it some thought and see if there's a way to encapsulate info. Any other ideas from anyone else are surely welcome.

 

[B-Eugen]

You could try limiting it to just performance comparisons between the various types. Most drives of the same types and class generally aren't going to vary wildly in performance stats between manufacturers, at least I don' think so.

 

[TheBSDGuy]

If you guys do something like that you should probably start a new thread with a new topic.

Just an opinion.

 

[ZVH]

A reference thread might be quite difficult to produce. Just on doing some basic searches I end up getting a myriad of different "reports" on various disks. I have no idea of knowing which are good and valid, which are just from angry customers that had something go wrong, and which might be inspired by financing from advertisers.

One idea might be to put a new thread or set of threads up with polls on various drive types, models, etc. with input from users, but who would ever know it existed? Once a poll is started it usually gets some initial views then fades into obscurity unless, like the "I hate Yosemite" thread (or whatever it's called) gets named as a sticky.

I'll be honest, I don't think I have the time for such an effort. If anyone else has ideas, feel free to express them.

 

[grahamperrin]

Thoughts

A reference thread might be quite difficult to produce. Just on doing some basic searches I end up getting a myriad of different "reports" on various disks. I have no idea of knowing which are good and valid …

Understood and agreed.

For what it's worth, I do like the focus of this topic – a majority of posts have focused on hybrid. I'm sure that many other users have relevant experience with SSHD and dual-drive hybrid … I just happened to be in the right place at the right time for a contribution (this topic was probably brought to my attention by the Forum Spy).

… I could change the title of the thread …

Yes, you can edit the opening post, in advanced edit mode, to edit the title.

For what it's worth, I'd change the title:

• from 'Drive Failed, considering hybrid - what to look out for?'
• to 'Considering hybrid drive - what to look out for?' or 'Hybrid drive pros and cons, relative to other types of drive' – or something like that.

(Hint: the current title is a mixture of subjects, and drive failure is the least 'enticing' of the two.)

 

[ZVH]

Getting back on topic for a moment, why are hard drive manufacturers so scrimpy on drive cache memory and for that matter, the amount of memory used to store data in a hybrid? Regular RAM is cheap, and even a small SSD nowadays is reasonably cheap.

I do consulting work and there's no way that many of our customers can live with just SSDs. The reason? Videos. Videos eat up enormous amounts of drive space, and it's not uncommon for them to want users to download videos, like instructional videos, rather than being reliant on network connections that can be sketchy, if not unreliable at times. That's huge amounts of space and an SSD just isn't cost effective, but drive manufacturers seem to be trying to cut costs just a bit too much.

 

[BradHatter]

I'm afraid editing the original post isn't possible. It looks to me that after a month or thereabouts a thread can't be edited by the original poster. There is no edit option for the first post, but the edit button shows up for stuff I wrote that's less than a month old.

Maybe it's because I haven't made that many posts on this site yet. I'll have to look at the rules.

 

[ZVH]

I think you're right. I just checked some of my old posts and if there more than a month old they're not editable. You could probably contact the web administrators and they'd probably give you permission to do so, but starting another thread, or better yet, an entire set of threads might be more beneficial. Consider the following, separated topics:

• Hybrid Drives
• Fusion Drives
• RAID units
• Regular Drives
• Backup Drives
• SSDs

I would ask for opinions, links to reviews, and personal experiences where applicable. There are probably a ton of posts on this and other websites with similar topics, but how up to date are they?

Anyone of us participating in this thread could do it, but it needs to be sort of organized and centralized. Maybe a sticky could be made pointing to each different link. Posts should probably also be put in the Peripherals section of this site since the topics are not MacBook Pro specific.

Just my ideas.

 

[TheBSDGuy]

That sounds like a lot of work where the thread(s) could easily fade into obscurity.

 

[ZVH]

Well….it was an idea anyway.

 

[BradHatter]

I'm just going to stick with this thread. People can just add to it as needed.

I got a little curious about SSHDs and how popular they are or aren't. It seems Seagate is all over the place with them but Toshiba and WD have some as well.

I found this link interesting that's pretty new:

http://www.techradar.com/us/news/co...ital-demoes-intriguing-sshd-prototype-1278819.

The article claims that if it's used in RAID 1 it could push 10Gbps. The flash storage is 128GB. It's just a prototype now.

 

[ZVH]

I'm just going to stick with this thread. People can just add to it as needed.

I got a little curious about SSHDs and how popular they are or aren't. It seems Seagate is all over the place with them but Toshiba and WD have some as well.

I found this link interesting that's pretty new:

http://www.techradar.com/us/news/co...ital-demoes-intriguing-sshd-prototype-1278819.

The article claims that if it's used in RAID 1 it could push 10Gbps. The flash storage is 128GB. It's just a prototype now.

All I have to say is it's about time! I a 64GB SSD can easily store the core OS and many applications and it would just be that much better with 128GB.

Unless there's some enormous breakthrough in SSD pricing, I can't possibly see it being a cost effective solution for anyone that needs lots of storage.

 

[grahamperrin]

Dual drive prototype: 128GB SSD + 4TB HDD 3.5" SATA Express

… The flash storage is 128GB. …

That's more appealing than 8

AnandTech | Western Digital Shows Off a 128GB SSD + 4TB HDD 3.5" SATA Express Dual-Drive (2015-01-04)

"… two separate volumes, although Western Digital is also working on a caching software to make the solution more user friendly. …"​

I hope that the software (firmware?) will be optional.

"… will likely appear on the market later this year. To be completely honest, the product as it stands today doesn't make much sense because it's internally SATA 6Gbps, but uses for PCIe for host connectivity. From a performance perspective the only advantage of PCIe is that the SSD and HDD can be accessed at the same time at full speed, but ultimately I think Western Digital has to go with a native PCIe SSD controller to be competitive. Western Digital told me that they are looking into PCIe controllers but since there aren't any available at this point, the prototype is stuck with SATA 6Gbps controllers."​

RAID

I vaguely recall reading a caution against using SSHD in at least one type of RAID or RAID-Z configuration. I'll dig through bookmarks …

 

[TheBSDGuy]

Currently both of the MacBook Air's 11 and 13 inch models start off with a 128GB SSD as their base drive option - and that's the sum of drive space. I wonder if Apple would ever consider a hybrid in their systems.

 

[BradHatter]

I found this article and it's table comparing SSDs, HDDs, and SSHDs a little interesting:

http://www.storagenewsletter.com/ru...lash-key/hdd-sshd-ssd-performance-comparison/

It's just over a year old. The full report which goes into a fair amount of detail is linked at the bottom of the page I'm referencing above.

 

[grahamperrin]

… MacBook Air … I wonder if Apple would ever consider a hybrid in their systems.

Where "their systems" are Macs in general:

yes, because Apple Fusion Drive is a dual-drive hybrid storage system.​

For the MacBook Air range alone:

a 500 GB SSHD would be great value for money. Assume that the 5mm ST500LX014 with standard Zero Gravity Sensor (ZGS) would cost not too much more than the (retail) ₤48.99 7mm ST500LM000.

Compare that low cost with £240, from Apple, if you want 500 GB instead of 250 GB solid state.

If a hybrid drive uses more energy than solid state alone, I don't imagine Apple offering any type of hybrid in a MacBook Air.​

No mention of 5mm under any of the following, but I assume that Apple's recent obsession with thinness will not allow a thin 7mm drive in a future MacBook Air:

Apple to Reportedly Launch Thinner MacBook by End of 2015 (2014-08-27)

Apple’s next major Mac revealed: the radically new 12-inch MacBook Air | 9to5Mac (2015-01-06)

…
http://www.storagenewsletter.com/ru...lash-key/hdd-sshd-ssd-performance-comparison/

It's just over a year old. The full report …

Storage Networking Industry Association (SNIA) Solid State Storage Initiative on the front page, so there may be bias, favouring solid state, in some of the tests. That's not to dismiss the white paper; it's enlightening. Thanks!

… considering hybrid - what to look out for?

Careless pricing. $10,000 is a little too much for an SSHD. For that price I'd want a warp drive, captain.

… I vaguely recall reading a caution against using SSHD in at least one type of RAID or RAID-Z configuration. I'll dig through bookmarks …

My recollection may be mistaken (sorry).

Whilst digging in Stack Exchange, I found some other items of interest.

Is it wise to use SSHDs (Solid state hybrid drives) on a server?

The accepted answer to Seagate Momentus XT corrupting files (Linux and Mac). Historical, but still enlightening. A cautionary tale for future early adopters of storage technology, maybe? (Not alarmist. Just a thought.)

 

[BradHatter]

Careless pricing. $10,000 is a little too much for an SSHD. For that price I'd want a warp drive, captain.

Either that price is a rip off, they have the wrong currency symbol, or they're looking for buyers in the "there's one born every minute" category.

 

[FrtzPeter]

I wouldn't buy anything from Ali Baba, much less something serious like a hard drive. If you know anything about watches, they're notorious for selling complete lots of Chinese made watches that appear extremely similar to real European brands, except they have movements that last maybe 2 or 3 months. You probably have no recourse against the sellers either. I wouldn't be surprised if that ad is a ploy to get someone that doesn't read the ads to think they're buying a lot of say 20 to 50 drives when they get one, and then the vendor disappears off the face of the earth.

 

[ZVH]

As a general question, what would be a good way to benchmark not just hybrid drives, but the whole gamut: SSDs, standard HDDs, Fusion Drives, and Hybrid Drives. It seems to me that some applications like Black Magic might be fine for regular drives, but I'm not really sure they tell the real story for hybrids and Fusions. Am I wrong?

Any open source stuff out there I could build myself that would do a myriad of tests? Even low cost stuff is fine with me….provided it works, of course.