Drobo S vs. Promise DS 4600 vs. other?

[OreoCookie]

anyway, after consulting our local Apple dealers it turns out that io cannot upgrade my old hd (320gb) to anything higher than 500gb (they say it's against Apple's recommendations).

That's non-sense, your local Apple dealer is wrong: the iMac could initially be configured with a 320 GB or a 500 GB drive, 2 TB drives didn't exist back then. Of course, your iMac can use 2 TB drives (scroll down to Upgrades > Hard Drive).

Hard Drive: 320 GB hard drives came standard with the iMac Intel 24" EMC 2134 and 2211. You can upgrade the drive up to 2 TB.

There is no technical reasons why you can't put in larger drives once they become available.

You can try it yourself following iFixit's step-by-step guide. (Make sure that you select the right model as the internals may differ.) Admittedly, it's not trivial to open up an iMac, but a reputable dealer should be able to do it. Whether he puts in a 500 GB drive or a 2 TB drive, there is no difference in the procedure. Since it's complicated, perhaps he doesn't know how to do it.

 

[sapporobaby]

Ok - I checked with another local dealer and apparently IT IS possible to upgrade my internal hd. I will probably upgrade to 2 TB (does it matter much if it's SATA 2 or 3? 7200 rpm anyway)
THANKS! that was a very good advice!

Anyway, now a different question rises
I will soon have an internal HD of 2 TB with an external drive of only 1TB to back it up (using Time Machine). Obviously, I would want to buy a bigger external hd. So - should I buy a Drobo to build a raid for external storage? (for backup) or am I better of with a different solution?

I should mention that in this new scenario, both the need for speed and the fear from losing the data have been reduced.

Recommendations?

Not sure how many more recommendations that you require or if you want OreoCookie to come and do all the work for you personally. Others here have expressed their opinion about your situation. I personally have detailed my situation which is very similar to your except that I do not have an iMac but a Mac Mini. I also gave you my opinion on the Time Capsule which you can Google and see that it does have some reliability (3 TC's in less than 2 years) issues.

The 7200 RPM and SATA 2 drives are fine. I am running this in my Drobo. For your needs a Drobo would be more than enough and it will allow you to plan for expansion in the future.

FIXED.....

 

[OreoCookie]

Can you back this up with some sort of data or a link? This sounds like pure speculation. Some MTBF rates or any other empirical data showing the Drobo failure rates. Not saying that they do not fail, but you make a bold claim without backing it up.

It's not a bold claim, it's elementary mathematics: A Drobo contains 2 drives and 1 set of computer logic, power supply, etc. A Drobo (or any other RAID solution with redundancy) protects only against hard drive failure (which is a great thing!). If the Drobo's power supply dies or an electric jolt destroys the logic board, the Drobo is dead. Hence, you have a single point of failure.

So for example if different components die independently of each other, the probability of that happening at the same time is very low. If, for instance, you don't have a surge protector and a surge strikes both, your hard drive and your computer, both may die at the same time. That's because the two events are strongly correlated. In case of my parents, a faulty USB hub killed their Mac mini and because the machine was apparently just doing a backup, also the Time Machine backup volume. Fortunately, the main drive was intact and I was able to restore everything.

I keep one backup drive at work and one at home. Even if a lightning strike completely fries my electronics at home, I still have a backup at work. Also in terms of components, it's safer: unlike the Drobo, I have two controllers plugged into different electrical systems. If one controller fails, I still have a second one in a different enclosure.

RAID or RAID-like solutions serve two main purposes:
(1) You can keep on working in case a hard drive fails. This is not important if you use the drive for backups as you never work off backups. To some people, it may be worth it to mirror the boot drive, for instance.
(2) It provides more storage capacity in case you need a volume that is larger than the largest hard drives available at the time. If you need a 4 TB volume, for instance, you need to combine several drives. Then, redundancy becomes crucial, because otherwise one dead drive will kill the whole volume -- and the probability of failure grows roughly linearly. If the rate of failure for a single drive is, say, 5 %, then to leading order, the probability of failure grows linearly with the number of drives. To counteract that, you introduce redundancy. That's where I see the Drobo.

Just to be clear here: I like the Drobo, I think it's a great concept and a great product. If I had the money, I'd probably get one. But in this specific situation, I think the OP fares better with a different solution.

 

[lirand]

That's non-sense, your local Apple dealer is wrong: the iMac could initially be configured with a 320 GB or a 500 GB drive, 2 TB drives didn't exist back then. Of course, your iMac can use 2 TB drives (scroll down to Upgrades > Hard Drive).

There is no technical reasons why you can't put in larger drives once they become available.

You can try it yourself following iFixit's step-by-step guide. (Make sure that you select the right model as the internals may differ.) Admittedly, it's not trivial to open up an iMac, but a reputable dealer should be able to do it. Whether he puts in a 500 GB drive or a 2 TB drive, there is no difference in the procedure. Since it's complicated, perhaps he doesn't know how to do it.

You've missed my latest post. I wrote that I now know that it'd possible and asked for a different advice.

 

[sapporobaby]

It's not a bold claim, it's elementary.....

Ah Wie gehts Herr Cookie.

Thanks for the explanation. In my case previously, one drive failed but I had it set up as a RAID 0 (striped) so all of my data was spread across both 2TB drives. One drive down, two fail so to speak. I got the new USB 3 Drobo instead of the Drobo FS because I find the FW 800 to be pretty potent in data movement. Considering I use the Drobo for the storage/streaming of my iTunes and various libraries, it only pushes data occasionally. It is hardly every accessing data on a constant basis. I have the Drobo in a RAID 5 with 2TB x 5 for 10TB of storage but because of the RAID 5, I have only 6.3 TB or so of storage. For backups I have the WD SpaceShare (4TB). I have an app that does an automatic backup/sync of my critical data. I use the drive in the TC just for music storage and nothing more as it too is backed up to the WD drive system. In your opinion, what do you think of my redundancy/storage setup?

P.S. I will re-edit the previous post. Thanks for the explanation.

 

[OreoCookie]

You've missed my latest post. I wrote that I now know that it'd possible and asked for a different advice.

Yes, you're right, I was writing the reply while you were posting.

Obviously, I would want to buy a bigger external hd. So - should I buy a Drobo to build a raid for external storage? (for backup) or am I better of with a different solution?

The Drobo is a good product (personally, I'd like to get one, but my dslr body died and I need to get an expensive lens fixed ).

In general, the backup drive should be considerably larger than the data you want to back up. It should be at least 50 % larger, if not twice as large. If you have, say, 300 GB of data now and you think you won't exceed 1 TB of data within the next 12 months, having 2 TB of backup storage is plenty. Since there are 2 TB drives available, you don't need to go for a Drobo to get this kind of capacity. If there are other reasons for getting a Drobo, e. g. in order to use it as a NAS for other people in your household or to have a central repository for your iTunes and movie library, it can be useful. If you don't have that and you're not independently wealthy, if I were you, I'd probably not get one and invest the money differently instead.

 

[OreoCookie]

Ah Wie gehts Herr Cookie.

Gut, gut, und Ihnen?

Considering I use the Drobo for the storage/streaming of my iTunes and various libraries, it only pushes data occasionally. It is hardly every accessing data on a constant basis. I have the Drobo in a RAID 5 with 2TB x 5 for 10TB of storage but because of the RAID 5, I have only 6.3 TB or so of storage. For backups I have the WD SpaceShare (4TB).

That sounds like a good way to utilize a Drobo.

In your opinion, what do you think of my redundancy/storage setup?

I'm envious. Need I say more?
I'd like to get one so that I don't have to pile up external hard drives and I can just add more to add capacity. But I couldn't justify the expense as there are other hobbies. Plus, what's the point of giving up photography if the primary reason I need more space is my photo library

 

[sapporobaby]

Gut, gut, und Ihnen?

That sounds like a good way to utilize a Drobo.

I'm envious. Need I say more?
I'd like to get one so that I don't have to pile up external hard drives and I can just add more to add capacity. But I couldn't justify the expense as there are other hobbies. Plus, what's the point of giving up photography if the primary reason I need more space is my photo library

Genau....

If you take a peek at my signature, you will see my love and hobby as well. After the crappy WD My Book died, I vowed never again to lose data. Luckily Apple let me download all of the things I missed again. I LOVE APPLE SERVICE...

I am lucky that I had the chance to see a Drobo FS and Drobo S working side by side. I have a Friend with 2. In my opinion the S connected via FW 800 has outstanding performance but is limited by the distance of the FW cable, in that it has to stay close to the main computer. On the other hand the FS was mounted in a closet, which gave me the idea to do the same with the WD. I have it mounted up in a closet and I can administer it from anywhere in the world as long as I have an Internet connection.

On a personal note, I lived in Germany for quite a while. Heidelberg, Stuttgart, Heilbronn, and Munich. I love the Autobahns and the dickes autos.

P.S. I moved my Aperture library (75 gigs) off of my MBP and on to a WD 500 gb, 7200 RPM, FW 800 external drive. It is great and fast. Bus powered, silent, and I can carry it everywhere I go. It will even run off of USB if need be, and I take it with me when I use my MBA and want to access my Aperture Lib. You might want to look into that.

 

[TWLreal]

This thread made me consider the OWC Mercury Pro Qx2 for its superior read and write performance until I realized it doesn't offer the seamless, no issue, worry free hard drive expansion or upgradability as the Drobo with its custom RAID solution.

Unless OWC is making a point in hiding that feature on its product page.

If I'm not mistaken, with a four 1TB drive setup with a Mercury Pro Qx2, if I were to upgrade at some point to four 2TB drives. I would have to offload the entirety of my data somewhere, pull the 1TB drives out, put the 2TB ones in, let it rebuild the RAID and then transfer back my data. Are you kidding me?

I want a single enclosure that will let me expand or upgrade my drives as they become available in larger capacities and as my budget allows, with redundancy.

Are the Drobo and NETGEAR ReadyNAS the only solutions that will let you expand and upgrade as you go without having to rebuild the RAID?

 

[OreoCookie]

If I'm not mistaken, with a four 1TB drive setup with a Mercury Pro Qx2, if I were to upgrade at some point to four 2TB drives. I would have to offload the entirety of my data somewhere, pull the 1TB drives out, put the 2TB ones in, let it rebuild the RAID and then transfer back my data. Are you kidding me?

You're not mistaken. This feature is the key selling point of the Drobo family.

Are the Drobo and NETGEAR ReadyNAS the only solutions that will let you expand and upgrade as you go without having to rebuild the RAID?

I think the current version of Windows home server and any ZFS-based solution can do that, too. With ZFS, you have to be comfortable the command line, though.

 

[jerry333]

Could you help me better understand the advantages and shortcoming of each system? I'm trying to decide between a Drobo S and a Promise DS4600 or an OWC QX2.

The Drobo S has five drives so it can be configured as a RAID6, which means you can lose two drives and still keep going. It also has some proprietary software that lets you manipulate the drives a bit more than other solutions.

The Promise DS4600 is a high quality RAID system with four enterprise class drives.

The OWC system is cheap and fast. There are a number of posts about quality problems.

As I mentioned I want to use the RAID as the main storage of my photo library. I would probably put some more stuff inside and would also want it to backup my Mac with Time Machine. All in all - I don't need more than 1 TB of storage for at least the upcoming year or two. Maybe 2TB if I want to absolutely be on the safe side.

If possible, buy for 3-4 years or you'll be spending the same amount or more again in two years. I've gone through this pain a couple of times (I'm obviously a slow learner My experience says that if you need 1TB, you should buy a 4TB system. If you have a 4TB system you should look at a 24TB system. Some systems are easier to add drives than others are, some take a performance hit if you expand the filesystem so for those type it's better to add capacity by adding drives and making them into a second file system.

Besides the need for the storage, I need it to be redundant and reliable (I am also backing up to an online service) and not less important - the data access should be FAST as the RAID would be used as the main storage for my photos.

If you're really looking for fast and good, check out http://caldigit.com/ Note that "fast" and "good" are relative to what you're doing. One person's fast is another's unacceptably slow.

I It seems it would also be important that the device would be able to accept a different kind of drive (not the same as the other, currently installed drives) as one cannot tell if a specific drive model would be available in a year or two from the date of purchase.
Thanks again.

This isn't much of a worry if you buy from a quality vendor. They will carry drives for their systems for at least 5-6 years, which is likely longer than you will keep the system.

 

[sapporobaby]

jerry333 pretty much summed up what I've been saying for the last few days. I have a Drobo S with 5 x 2TB drives which in theory gives me 10 TB but due to overhead and "stuff" I have approximately 7TB of storage left. I have it set up in RAID 5 so I am in pretty good shape should a drive or two fail. I also have a 4 TB Western Digital ShareSpace set up as a backup for the uber-critical data, i.e. music, photos, video, etc....

 

[TWLreal]

You're not mistaken.

That is borderline stupid.

In the same previously stated situation with a typical four 1TB drive RAID 5, if I were to pull one drive out, put a new 2TB one in and repeat until all 4 drives are replaced, will the RAID be rebuilt with no data loss or does the fact that changing to a different drive size destroy my previous RAID?

If that is the case, the Drobo and the NETGEAR ReadyNAS are completely worth the small premium and performance hit to me.

 

[lirand]

Hey guys,
Thanks to you I realized that I was probably heading at the wrong direction.
It seems that a better solution is upgrading the internal HD of my Mac (I've seen that it's possible to upgrade it to 1-2 TB - I'm going for 1.5 TB) and to use an external drive as a Time Machine backup (plus an online backup, for off-site - as I already do now).
It seems it will give me better security, since the data is backed up into two actually different places (+offsite) with no single-point-of-failure (the RAID's controller). Plus - it will give me the best speeds to access my data - and it will be cheaper.
Anyway, under this scenario I don't really need the external drive to be that secured/redundant or even fast. However, it seems I would still be better off with a RAID as it is more expendable, can offer more storage and cheaper than a regular external drive (I will soon be getting rid of 2 drives of 1TB each that I have nothing to do with, now when my storage needs grew).
I was thinking about buying this enclosure: http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Other...g/MEPT934AL2C/
dropping 2X2TB drives inside it and configuring it to RAID 0 (I don't need the redundancy - just the extra storage).
What do you think?
Thanks and I wish you all a merry Christmas

 

[sapporobaby]

@lirand,

Did you read my warnings about trusting a Time Capsule? Do what you want but after three of them I'm done trusting them. Also RAID 0 means no backup, no recovery if a drive goes bad. It is the least safest option. Also offsite storage is no where near as fast as a local drive. No way.

 

[lirand]

@lirand,

Did you read my warnings about trusting a Time Capsule? Do what you want but after three of them I'm done trusting them. Also RAID 0 means no backup, no recovery if a drive goes bad. It is the least safest option. Also offsite storage is no where near as fast as a local drive. No way.

I'm not using Time Capsule (Apple's hardware) - I'm using Time Machine (just the software) and considering buying an OWC RAID. Regarding RAID 0 - I explained that I have another copy on my internal HD - did you read my post?

 

[sapporobaby]

I'm not using Time Capsule (Apple's hardware) - I'm using Time Machine (just the software) and considering buying an OWC RAID. Regarding RAID 0 - I explained that I have another copy on my internal HD - did you read my post?

I re-read your post and now understand it. I have to admit though, you have been all over the place (my opinion) with what you are looking for. Also, you state that you will put stuff in "the cloud" as a backup, but it appears that you have not considered the speed implications and that cloud services fail as well. Also, the Time Machine app is not very robust but it is okay if your needs are not too specific.

 

[lirand]

I re-read your post and now understand it. I have to admit though, you have been all over the place (my opinion) with what you are looking for. Also, you state that you will put stuff in "the cloud" as a backup, but it appears that you have not considered the speed implications and that cloud services fail as well. Also, the Time Machine app is not very robust but it is okay if your needs are not too specific.

What tells you that I didn't consider the speed implications of online backup? I have obviously did. Of course these services can fail. Any backup can fail. What's your point? This is why it's the third backup location. The data is also on my internal HD and the external backup.

 

[Sensamic]

Hey.

Im interested in buying the Drobo too. Im trying to decide between the new Drobo S with USB 3.0 or the DroboPro. My main concern is performance. I know Macs dont have USB 3.0 yet, but Im sure sometime in the future they will have. When that time comes, what do you guys think will allow better performance for video playback (tv shows in normal quality, BD rips, full BD, etc): USB 3.0 or ISCII?

I hear ISCII is as fast as a gigabit ethernet connection, but will it be better than USB 3.0 in the future?

If I'll have better performance with the DroboPro then I'll buy it, but I like the idea that the Drobo S has USB 3.0, because that way its more future proof.

Maybe I'll have a very similar performance with both Drobos? Maybe I wont notice a big difference between both? If that is the case then I'll go for the Drobo S, because its cheaper too, and less noisy Im sure.

Thanks!

 

[sapporobaby]

What tells you that I didn't consider the speed implications of online backup? I have obviously did. Of course these services can fail. Any backup can fail. What's your point? This is why it's the third backup location. The data is also on my internal HD and the external backup.

Your posts 13, and 39 talk about using an online storage system. If you are backing up a TB of data or so this will be slow no matter how fast your Internet connection. Anyway, I have no point. I don't care. My stuff is safe and secure and really, that's all that matters to me. Good luck with whatever you are trying to do. I have no more suggests or advice to offer you.

 

[sapporobaby]

Hey.

Im interested in buying the Drobo too. Im trying to decide between the new Drobo S with USB 3.0 or the DroboPro. My main concern is performance. I know Macs dont have USB 3.0 yet, but Im sure sometime in the future they will have. When that time comes, what do you guys think will allow better performance for video playback (tv shows in normal quality, BD rips, full BD, etc): USB 3.0 or ISCII?

I hear ISCII is as fast as a gigabit ethernet connection, but will it be better than USB 3.0 in the future?

If I'll have better performance with the DroboPro then I'll buy it, but I like the idea that the Drobo S has USB 3.0, because that way its more future proof.

Maybe I'll have a very similar performance with both Drobos? Maybe I wont notice a big difference between both? If that is the case then I'll go for the Drobo S, because its cheaper too, and less noisy Im sure.

Thanks!

I have the Drobo S, while a friend has the Drobo Pro. He loves it just as much as I love my Drobo S. Everything you are talking about I am doing with the Drobo S right now. I have a Mac Mini that acts as media server so I use Front Row (sucks) and iTunes. My iTunes lib is on the Drobo. I stream HD iTunes purchased content directly from the Mini to my HD Sony TV. No hiccups, problems, delays, or any erratic behavior. I do not think that I could be more more future proof than I am. I have 10 TB in a RAID 5 (actual storage capacity according to the Drobo S is: 7.21TB) so my data is secure, transfers fast and is reliable. Being that I purchased a 4 x 1TB WD SpaceShare as an interim solution until the Drobo S arrived, I use the WD as a backup to the Drobo S. You might want to look at other backup solutions as the Time Machine is okay for some things but not as robust as some 3rd party solutions. You have to decide your needs.

 

[TWLreal]

I just ordered the 4-bay, second generation Drobo with USB and FireWire 800 along with a single Western Digital Caviar Green 2TB WD20EARS. I will get three more drives later.

I'm hoping this works out and that it has no annoying quirks that I will find.

 

[sapporobaby]

I just ordered the 4-bay, second generation Drobo with USB and FireWire 800 along with a single Western Digital Caviar Green 2TB WD20EARS. I will get three more drives later.

I'm hoping this works out and that it has no annoying quirks that I will find.

Nice call. Any reason you didn't spring for the 5 bay USB 3.0? Just curious.

http://www.drobo.com/products/drobo-s.php

 

[TWLreal]

Nice call. Any reason you didn't spring for the 5 bay USB 3.0? Just curious.

http://www.drobo.com/products/drobo-s.php

I didn't see it as much of an advantage to me, for the price premium.

It's $349 vs. $799, for an extra bay, faster read and write performance and USB 3.0 which I don't have on my iMac in the first place. FireWire 800 will be more than enough for my uses. I am not streaming or working off the Drobo, it's strictly for storage.

Can you tell me about the Drobo Dashboard? Unless it's a completely different version for Drobo and Drobo S or FS. Is it still running in 32-bit or has that been solved? An entry in their knowledge base seems to say it has been upgraded to 64-bit. I just want seamless integration under my system.

 

[sapporobaby]

I didn't see it as much of an advantage to me, for the price premium.

It's $349 vs. $799, for an extra bay, faster read and write performance and USB 3.0 which I don't have on my iMac in the first place. FireWire 800 will be more than enough for my uses. I am not streaming or working off the Drobo, it's strictly for storage.

Can you tell me about the Drobo Dashboard? Unless it's a completely different version for Drobo and Drobo S or FS. Is it still running in 32-bit or has that been solved? An entry in their knowledge base seems to say it has been upgraded to 64-bit. I just want seamless integration under my system.

Makes sense. I got the S and am pretty pleased with it. I work off of mine. By work I mean daily streaming of my iTunes lib to my Mac Mini, and then on to my TV so the FW800 is more than plenty. I am not sure what people are talking about in terms of speed. FW800 is plenty fast for most things.

As for the Dashboard I am not sure if it is 64bit. My understanding about the way Mac OS X works is if an app is written in 64bit, but you booted in 32bit, it will still run in 64bit anyway as 64bit apps can run under the 32bit kernel. I could be wrong, but I am using Norton Anti-V and this only runs in 32bit (what are they thinking) so I don't normally boot into 64bit. The dashboard is pretty simple to use and intuitive. Fire and forget.