Dual core or Quad core processor?

[ThatsMeRight]

Thanks for expanding on your position but I am going to have to disagree with it. Grand Central Dispatch will handle those issues. Apple will tell the developers to use it and that will be that. Why would they not want to? It will be in their best interests to do so.. I'm not saying there wont be some grumbling from those who are hitting the hardware cores directly for greatest speed but those techniques will be deprecated. The software developers will fall in line.
We shall find out soon enough so no point in arguing past this point. Apple makes the final decisions not us.

It's not going to happen. Apple is not going to force developers to use this. GCD is already supported since iOS 4.

That's it. It's supported. It's not going to be forced upon developers.

I will admit I'm wrong if Apple announces the iPad 3 and says "all developers MUST now make use of our GCD technology", but if they are not going to say that than they simply can not go back to two cores because than there are going to be apps that won't work.

And as I said, there are lots of perfectionists at Apple, and these people will go crazy when apps are going to perform worse (or won't work at all).

GCD is not going to solve anything. They should have forced GCD upon developers when they first introduced the iPad. They are too late now.

 

[borgqueenx]

i was thinking, and A5X, and the other post some time back showing the iboot screen....i think its just a improved A5. clocked a bit higher.
A15 architecture is to new to implement especially when the most sites say it will be a processor thats going to be released after or in mid-2012.
The iboot screen also showed a "5"number increase, where in the past the number increased by 10 on the end. Thats why im pretty certain now that its not going to be the new A15 architecture.
Although it could get quad core, on desame architecture.

 

[psonice]

I'm really hoping they go with a quad-core processor. Just look at the graphics in GlowBall for Tegra 3: Part 1, Part 2

I'm no expert, so I may be wrong, but dynamic lighting, and all those effects appear to require it.

That aside, if the iPad 3 does get a retina display which I'm sure it will, if they stay with the SGX543 Apple will need at the very least six of them. Hopefully it'll have a PowerVR 600 series GPU though.

I suspect you could run that demo on the iPad 2. The lighting effects can all be done on the GPU, the cloth simulation too likely (since the A5 has much more GPU power available than the tegra3), that only leaves the physics.

Thanks for expanding on your position but I am going to have to disagree with it. Grand Central Dispatch will handle those issues. Apple will tell the developers to use it and that will be that. Why would they not want to? It will be in their best interests to do so.. I'm not saying there wont be some grumbling from those who are hitting the hardware cores directly for greatest speed but those techniques will be deprecated. The software developers will fall in line.
We shall find out soon enough so no point in arguing past this point. Apple makes the final decisions not us.

That would be a seriously crazy decision. They'd be telling all the developers who work cross-platform to re-write large portions of their code, just for iOS. The end result would be that some developers don't bother and move to android or wherever, others do a low quality quick + dirty port, and others take their time and we get the latest games, just 6 months after everyone else.

Besides that, lots of problems aren't suited to GCD anyway.

I don't see why they wouldn't just stick with their existing setup: have a choice of standard threading, GCD, or just single threaded when that's enough. If you use single threading it's normal to implement it quite similarly to GCD anyway, if a game engine is already designed for that why reinvent the wheel?

 

[ThatsMeRight]

I suspect you could run that demo on the iPad 2. The lighting effects can all be done on the GPU, the cloth simulation too likely (since the A5 has much more GPU power available than the tegra3), that only leaves the physics.



That would be a seriously crazy decision. They'd be telling all the developers who work cross-platform to re-write large portions of their code, just for iOS. The end result would be that some developers don't bother and move to android or wherever, others do a low quality quick + dirty port, and others take their time and we get the latest games, just 6 months after everyone else.

Besides that, lots of problems aren't suited to GCD anyway.

I don't see why they wouldn't just stick with their existing setup: have a choice of standard threading, GCD, or just single threaded when that's enough. If you use single threading it's normal to implement it quite similarly to GCD anyway, if a game engine is already designed for that why reinvent the wheel?

Exactly.

 

[ThatsMeRight]

I was unable to find the article again, unfortunately. Today, however, I stumbled upon something amazing. Engadget posted an article where Texas Instrument's OMAP 5's dual-core Cortex A15 chip was competing against a quad-core Cortex A9 chip.

http://www.engadget.com/2012/02/23/omap-5s-dual-a15-cores-wipe-the-floor-with-four-a9s/#continued

OMAP 5 - Cortex A15 (next-gen architecture) - Dual-Core clocked at 800 MHz
versus
Unspecified chip - Cortex A9 (archicture used for A5 chip) - Quad-Core clocked at 1.3 GHz

The results are striking and after you all have read this post, I'm sure you all want a dual-core A6 chip based on the Cortex A15 architecture at 1 GHz each, rather than a quad-core A6 chip based on the Cortex A9 architecture at 1 GHz each.

Remember, we are now comparing a 800 MHz dual-core Cortex A15 processor, against a 1.3 GHz quad-core Cortex A9 processor.

Comparing the processors

Test: loading twenty graphically intense HTML5 pages, while playing a MP3 file and downloading a video file.
Dual-Core Cortex A15 (800 MHz): 95 seconds in total
Quad-Core Cortex A9 (1.3 GHz): 201 seconds in total

That's amazing! Remember, the iPad 3 is rumoured to have a quad-core Cortex A9 1 GHz processor. I sincerely hope that the A5X processor is real, and turns out to be a dual-core Cortex A15 1 GHz processor.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Now, of course we were talking about the release date and when these things are ready. I've also found an article on Engadget that's about one year old.

http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/07/ti-announces-omap-5-two-high-performance-and-two-low-power-core/

The newest article I could find regarding the OMAP 5 is this one:

http://pinoytutorial.com/techtorial...beastly-specs-for-tablets-ultrabooks-on-2013/

It isn't too far of from its original schedule: second half or 2012, or at its latest point early 2013.

There's a small difference however. We all expect Apple to announce a quad-core Cortex A9 processor at 1 GHz, or a dual-core Cortex A15 processor at 1 GHz. Samsung and Texas Instruments are talking about 2 GHz dual-core Cortex A15 processors.

I don't see Apple going to 2 GHz - especially not with battery life in mind. I see them staying at 1 GHz this year, and if that's the case, than it is very well possible Apple gives us an A6/A5X chip with the Cortex A15 architecture.

Assuming they go for a dual-core 1 GHz Cortex A15 processor, than in 2013 they could do either one of these two things:

- Quad-Core 1 GHz Cortex A15 processor (more cores)
- Dual Core 1.1-2 GHz Cortex A15 processor (higher clockspeeds)

---------------------------------------------------
To be honest, the more I start to think about it, the more I believe Apple is actually going to introduce an A6 / A5X processor with the Cortex A15 architecture.

Think about it.

If they are going to stay with the Cortex A9 architecture (like rumoured [quad-core Cortex A9]), than that would give them difficulties next year. Apple is trying to compete with both hardware and software (people say Apple doesn't compete on hardware, but the opposite is true).

Why would it give Apple difficulties next year if they are releasing a quad-core Cortex A9 processor? Simply because next year they just have to switch to the Cortex A15 architecture - it's a necessity. They just can not stick with the Cortex A9 architecture in 2013. In 2013 they have to switch to the Cortex A15 architecture - the whole market is moving to the Cortex A15 architecture.

So, what would happen if Apple indeed released the following:

- A6 chip: a 1 GHz quad-core processor based on the Cortex A9 architecture

Well, than in 2013, when it's necessary to switch from architecture, they would have to come up with this:

- A7 chip: a 1 GHz quad-core processor on the Cortex A15 architecture

It needs to be a quad-core processor (they can't go back to dual-core). And it's too complicated and simply too risky to change from architecture and double the amount of cores (and perhaps changing from 32nm to, like what, 21 nm?).
That is why, I believe Apple is going to do this:

- A6 chip (or A5X, if you'd like): a 1 GHz dual-core processor based on the Cortex A15 achitecture.

And than in 2013, they could do the following things:

- A7 chip: a higher clocked dual-core processor based on the Cortex A15 architecture
- A7 chip: a 1 GHz quad-core processor based on the Cortex A15 architecture



-----------------
Pfew, quite a story. I hope you guys understand what I'm trying to say, haha.

I still think it's going to be a dual-core Cortex A15 processor for the seem reasons I stated above, and for the fact that more recently we saw pictures of an A5X (A5 eXtreme?) processor, TheVerge suddenly started talking about dual-core instead of quad-core and later on even more rumours were talking about a dual-core processor instead of a quad-core processor.

Now I found this article on BGR: http://www.bgr.com/2011/12/08/samsu...et-with-retina-resolution-tablet-in-february/

This article dates back all the way to early December 2011. The article is mainly about Samsung trying to beat Apple with the retina display, but they also mention an "A6 chip" that "is a dual-core Cortex A15 chip."

I really hope they are correct - I guess we'll found out soon enough.

Oh, and Samsung is expected to announce the successor of the Galaxy Tab 10.1 with the Exynos 5250 chip next week. The Exynos 5250 chip is a 2 GHz dual-core Cortex A15 chip produced on a 32 nm line (Apple is moving to a 32 nm line as well with the A6 chip (simply because Samsung stops producing at 45nm for new chips)).

 

[borgqueenx]

Theres no logic in my last post on this topic?
I personally ofc hope the a15 is true

 

[MacAttacka]

Want Dual A15 but expect quad A9

 

[daleski75]

I am almost certain we won't see a A15 or PowerVR 600 until the iPad 4 comes out next year as the A15 is not really due out until summer and the 600 series GPU is not out till 2013.

My bets are on a 1.5ghz dual core or a 1ghz quad core with a 543MP4 or a 554MP2 under the hood.

 

[borgqueenx]

I am almost certain we won't see a A15 or PowerVR 600 until the iPad 4 comes out next year as the A15 is not really due out until summer and the 600 series GPU is not out till 2013.

My bets are on a 1.5ghz dual core or a 1ghz quad core with a 543MP4 or a 554MP2 under the hood.

yes im afraid you are right. Would still be a fair engine though.
but dont know the difference between the GPU's you noted.

 

[MythicFrost]

I suspect you could run that demo on the iPad 2. The lighting effects can all be done on the GPU, the cloth simulation too likely (since the A5 has much more GPU power available than the tegra3), that only leaves the physics.

Mmm I see, thanks for the info. The physics would be too much for the GPU to handle as well, you reckon?

I am almost certain we won't see a A15 or PowerVR 600 until the iPad 4 comes out next year as the A15 is not really due out until summer and the 600 series GPU is not out till 2013.

My bets are on a 1.5ghz dual core or a 1ghz quad core with a 543MP4 or a 554MP2 under the hood.

Do you have any reference that the 600 series isn't coming out until 2013? It's quite possible though that Apple's working on an A15 chip for the iPad 3. I don't know how many months it's until summer in the US, but I remember reading that Samsung was going to release something as soon as 2Q 2012.

I'm not sure an 554MP2 would be enough would it? I'm not familiar with its specs, but I'd be surprised if it had a double performance increase over the SGX543MP2.

 

[ThatsMeRight]

Mmm I see, thanks for the info. The physics would be too much for the GPU to handle as well, you reckon?

Do you have any reference that the 600 series isn't coming out until 2013? It's quite possible though that Apple's working on an A15 chip for the iPad 3. I don't know how many months it's until summer in the US, but I remember reading that Samsung was going to release something as soon as 2Q 2012.

I'm not sure an 554MP2 would be enough would it? I'm not familiar with its specs, but I'd be surprised if it had a double performance increase over the SGX543MP2.

I placed my GPu thoughts in another topic a few days ago. I'm placing it here as well for the sake of argument.

--------––——–-----------------
As much as I'd like to see the PowerVR 6 series GPU, I think the chance is only about 5% that happens.

Apple began using the PowerVR SGX 535 in June of 2009 with the iPhone 3GS. Apple also used the PowerVR SGX 535 for the iPhone 4.

PowerVR SGX 535 was announced in November 2007.

So, the PowerVR SGX 535 was to be used in June 2009 for the first time - 19 months (almost two years) after its first official announcement.

The iPhone 4S and iPad 2 uses SGX543MP2. First announced in January 2009. Almost two years after its first official announcement. It should be noted, however, that we are not only going up in the PowerVR 5-series: it's also a dual-core GPU (so in fact, two times that GPU).

I could see them moving up to the SGX544 which has been announced 22 months ago (almost 2 years from now) or the SGX554 (announced 16 months ago (in March)) - so that's also a possibility.
It's not going to be a SGX544 GPU: the SGX544 is the same GPU as currently used in the iPad 2. The onliest difference is, that there is additional DirectX support. iOS doesn't support DirectX.

It's just too early for the PowerVR 6 series. If they stay with the current chip, than it is going to be a quad-core GPU... certainly. If they move up to the 554, than I'm not sure... there's little data about this GPU (simply because it hasn't been used yet). If the extra power is small, than it's going to be quad-core. If the extra power is huge, than it's going to be dual-core.

So, we in reality know nothing yet. The 544 just seems very unlikely, offers no extra/better performance. So I think that these are the possibilities:

- A quad-core variant of the SGX543 (iPad 2 uses dual-core variant)
- A dual-core variant of the SGX554 (only if the SGX554 offers much additional performance)
- A quad-core variant of the SGX554 (if the performance gain is not big enough when using a dual-core variant)
- A dual-core variant of the PowerVR Series 6 Rogue GPU*

* This one seems unlikely, but not impossible. Apple might believe that a quad-core variant of the SGX543 (like currently used) does not offer enough power. The SGX544 doesn't offer any additional power (only extra DirectX support, which Apple doesn't support) so won't be used at all. If the SGX554 neither doesn't support enough power (even in quad-core variant), only than they are going to use the PowerVR Series 6 GPU if possible.

In reality, the battle is between a quad-core SGX543, a dual-core or quad-core SGX554 or a dual-core PowerVR 6 series GPU.

------------------------------------
Later on, I also suggested Apple just might stick with the current dual-core GPU, just like they had done with the transformation from the 3GS to the iPhone 4. I certainly don't hope they stick with the exact same dual-core GPU.

 

[MythicFrost]

I placed my GPu thoughts in another topic a few days ago. I'm placing it here as well for the sake of argument.

--------––——–-----------------
As much as I'd like to see the PowerVR 6 series GPU, I think the chance is only about 5% that happens.

Apple began using the PowerVR SGX 535 in June of 2009 with the iPhone 3GS. Apple also used the PowerVR SGX 535 for the iPhone 4.

PowerVR SGX 535 was announced in November 2007.

So, the PowerVR SGX 535 was to be used in June 2009 for the first time - 19 months (almost two years) after its first official announcement.

The iPhone 4S and iPad 2 uses SGX543MP2. First announced in January 2009. Almost two years after its first official announcement. It should be noted, however, that we are not only going up in the PowerVR 5-series: it's also a dual-core GPU (so in fact, two times that GPU).

I could see them moving up to the SGX544 which has been announced 22 months ago (almost 2 years from now) or the SGX554 (announced 16 months ago (in March)) - so that's also a possibility.
It's not going to be a SGX544 GPU: the SGX544 is the same GPU as currently used in the iPad 2. The onliest difference is, that there is additional DirectX support. iOS doesn't support DirectX.

It's just too early for the PowerVR 6 series. If they stay with the current chip, than it is going to be a quad-core GPU... certainly. If they move up to the 554, than I'm not sure... there's little data about this GPU (simply because it hasn't been used yet). If the extra power is small, than it's going to be quad-core. If the extra power is huge, than it's going to be dual-core.

So, we in reality know nothing yet. The 544 just seems very unlikely, offers no extra/better performance. So I think that these are the possibilities:

- A quad-core variant of the SGX543 (iPad 2 uses dual-core variant)
- A dual-core variant of the SGX554 (only if the SGX554 offers much additional performance)
- A quad-core variant of the SGX554 (if the performance gain is not big enough when using a dual-core variant)
- A dual-core variant of the PowerVR Series 6 Rogue GPU*

* This one seems unlikely, but not impossible. Apple might believe that a quad-core variant of the SGX543 (like currently used) does not offer enough power. The SGX544 doesn't offer any additional power (only extra DirectX support, which Apple doesn't support) so won't be used at all. If the SGX554 neither doesn't support enough power (even in quad-core variant), only than they are going to use the PowerVR Series 6 GPU if possible.

In reality, the battle is between a quad-core SGX543, a dual-core or quad-core SGX554 or a dual-core PowerVR 6 series GPU.

------------------------------------
Later on, I also suggested Apple just might stick with the current dual-core GPU, just like they had done with the transformation from the 3GS to the iPhone 4. I certainly don't hope they stick with the exact same dual-core GPU.

Sticking with the current GPU isn't an option at all -- the frame rate on games would drop too low. Unlike with the 3GS > 4, we didn't see any games that couldn't run on the 4.

My reasoning for not thinking we'll see any SGX600 series graphics, sadly, is due to the lack of drivers in the iOS 5 Beta. Unlike with the SGX543, we saw references to drivers in the latest Beta OS.

 

[borgqueenx]

Sticking with the current GPU isn't an option at all -- the frame rate on games would drop too low. Unlike with the 3GS > 4, we didn't see any games that couldn't run on the 4.

My reasoning for not thinking we'll see any SGX600 series graphics, sadly, is due to the lack of drivers in the iOS 5 Beta. Unlike with the SGX543, we saw references to drivers in the latest Beta OS.

are there drivers for a GPU thats not currently used in the current iOS firmwares?

 

[MythicFrost]

are there drivers for a GPU thats not currently used in the current iOS firmwares?

No, but at some point drivers in the iOS 4 were discovered for the SGX543, however no drivers for the SGX600 series have been found so far. It's possible Apple is hiding that information after us finding it the first time, but it's also quite possible that it isn't.

 

[Hexiii]

I am looking forward to iPad 3 although I won't buy it. The iPad 2 made the first one extremely outdated, I can't image what's going to happen now. Retina display, better camera, faster processor/graphics. Who the heck cares it's thicker.

 

[borgqueenx]

I am looking forward to iPad 3 although I won't buy it. The iPad 2 made the first one extremely outdated, I can't image what's going to happen now. Retina display, better camera, faster processor/graphics. Who the heck cares it's thicker.

thicker? maybe by a hair. Macrumors posted the wrong photos wich were taken by a stopid angle. There's one photo where i'd say they both are desame.

 

[ThatsMeRight]

thicker? maybe by a hair. Macrumors posted the wrong photos wich were taken by a stopid angle. There's one photo where i'd say they both are desame.

Yeah, I mean, we're talking about practically nothing here.

And it's got more tapered edges, so it will actually feel even thinner. And iFixit got hands-on wit the 'Retina Display' which is in possession of MacRumors, and said it is about 17 grams lighter. This might compensate for a possibly heavier battery and the better cameras - heck, the iPad 3 might be even lighter than the iPad 2, even with all its new features!

I'm all-in for an iPad 3 with heavily improved specs, which feels thinner (thanks to the more tapered edges) - even if it's about 1 mm thicker, a retina display, better cameras, A6 chip, more and about the same weight or possibly even lighter!

You can also clearly see how more tapered the iPad 3 is. If you look at the iPad 2, than it's more or less like this: you go down, and than suddenly there's a steep curve.
If you look at the 'iPad 3', than it's more or less like this: a long wide curve that's more like a slide.

 

[Kavier]

Would love quad core by think it will be dual core. Not sure quad core will be able to have the same great battery life.

 

[Delighted]

As much as I hate to say it, it would most likely be dual-core. I would LOVE quad-core, but the current iPad2 is FAR from being considered slow so I dont see Apple upgrading to quad-core anytime soon. This would also keep the iPad3 from experiencing short battery life which would lead to a possible "battery-gate". Regardless, I cannot wait to see the iPad3 debut.

 

[MythicFrost]

Would love quad core by think it will be dual core. Not sure quad core will be able to have the same great battery life.

As much as I hate to say it, it would most likely be dual-core. I would LOVE quad-core, but the current iPad2 is FAR from being considered slow so I dont see Apple upgrading to quad-core anytime soon. This would also keep the iPad3 from experiencing short battery life which would lead to a possible "battery-gate". Regardless, I cannot wait to see the iPad3 debut.

You won't really see a quad-core affect battery life negatively in general use, only when in apps (games) that make use of it.

 

[MacAttacka]

Im guessing that a dual A5 at 1.5+Ghz is faster than a quad A5 running at 1Ghz. Since the original iPad is not that old and only has a single core, any speed increases seen on iPad 2 were primarily down to the shift from Cortex A8 to A9.

Quad core in my understanding would just allow better multithreaded apps and multitasking. A supercharged A5 would show much better real world performance over a slower quad A5.

That also leaves the door open for A15 to debut in iPad 4. I dont see any real world benefit moving to quad.

 

[Jordom115]

Im guessing that a dual A5 at 1.5+Ghz is faster than a quad A5 running at 1Ghz. Since the original iPad is not that old and only has a single core, any speed increases seen on iPad 2 were primarily down to the shift from Cortex A8 to A9.

Quad core in my understanding would just allow better multithreaded apps and multitasking. A supercharged A5 would show much better real world performance over a slower quad A5.

That also leaves the door open for A15 to debut in iPad 4. I dont see any real world benefit moving to quad.

I think in light of the recent discovery of two new processors being referenced in the iOS 5.1 code (both added at the same time) -- http://9to5mac.com/2012/02/26/apple-working-on-enhanced-a5-chip-a5x-and-completely-new-chip-a6/ -- it is very likely that we see an A5X chip that is simply an upgraded Cortex A9 based dual core chip (for the new Apple TV which I think has a very good chance of being released with the iPad3), and an A6 which is either a dual core A15 or upgraded quad core A9. Because new apps will take advantage a GCD, I believe there is a really good reason for apple to go quad core -- if they don't do it this time, then I am sure the ipad4 will end up with a quad core cortex A15 chip (or possibly a quad core hybrid chip with cortex A15 and A7).

Most importantly, I really don't think there is any way Apple is just going to offer a speed bump for the current A5 for the iPad 3, this would really only make sense for the Apple TV. Apple has grown incredibly quickly over the last year and has continued to develop and enhance relations with it's suppliers like Samsung. If anyone can get Samsung to keep a secret and hurry along production of their A15 processors, it's Apple. I really hope we see an A15 dual core along side the upgraded (likely quad core) GPU.

 

[mrsir2009]

Dual Core. The processor isn't a weak point of the 4S, so a Quad Core would be overkill IMO.

 

[MacAttacka]

it is very likely that we see an A5X chip that is simply an upgraded Cortex A9 based dual core chip (for the new Apple TV which I think has a very good chance of being released with the iPad3), and an A6 which is either a dual core A15 or upgraded quad core A9. I really hope we see an A15 dual core along side the upgraded (likely quad core) GPU.

I had felt down beaten about the A5x being just a suped up A5 but what you say makes sense especially as A5 was a much bigger and expensive chip than A4. A5x will certainly be die shrunk to make it cheaper first and foremost either for the existing iPad 2 or Apple TV as you say. Apple could keep the speed at 1Ghz for iPad 2 and possibly even ramp it up for Apple TV. The die shrink will make it cheaper and faster.

That leaves the door open for A6 debuting in the iPad 3 and the existance of A5x would mean its a significant enough upgrade over the A5. The big unknown is still the GPU!

----------

Dual Core. The processor isn't a weak point of the 4S, so a Quad Core would be overkill IMO.

Whose talking about the 4S? Steve Jobs made a point of the iPad 2 being the first dual core tablet to ship in volume. Tegra 3 is already out and other licensees will be flooding the market with quad cores this year and next. I doubt Apple will ride out another year with a dual Cortex A9 processor especially given the significant upgrades promised this round. I think dual A15 is out of the question although it would be a dream come true.

 

[WLS]

well guys it looks like its gonna be a A5 dual core... It looks like the GPU will be what is souped up - any guesses as to which one?? And it looks like it will have 1GB Ram.
This is not a surprise Apple had to save some money to keep the price points the same so no quad cores.
It leaves open the A6 having the dual core cortex 15 too.
from the Verge"
"According to sources familiar with the matter, Apple will update both the new Apple TV and the iPad 3 (or iPad HD, a name we first unearthed last year) not with the rumored, quad-core A6 system-on-a-chip, but rather the A5X, a dual-core SoC said to have a more powerful GPU. From what we're hearing, it's basically an A5 on steroids.

Our source was adamant that neither of the new products would be receiving the next generation chip — rather, that Apple seems to be waiting for the launch of the iPhone 5 to introduce the rumored A6.

Our sources say that there's no question the new iPad will tout that 2048 x 1536 Retina Display, but we're also told that along with the A5X, the device will have more RAM than its predecessor"