Dual-Processor 2.5GHz G5 + Leopard freezes = freeze, probably the RAID card

Discussion in 'PowerPC Macs' started by RoboCop001, Dec 20, 2008.

  1. RoboCop001 macrumors 65816

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    #1
    Hey everyone.

    I've searched the forums, and have come up with a couple of similar threads, but none seemed to have the answer.

    I just installed Leopard twice on my G5. The system is a 2.5GHz dual-processor (not dual-core) G5. I can check the RAM on Monday when I go back to work, but I think it's 2 or 3GB?

    It ran Tiger just fine, but the networking with Windows computers is so much better and faster with Leopard that it made sense to upgrade (the G5 is on a network mostly populated by PCs).

    So.. we installed Leopard on it. Most of the time it will freeze a few minutes after bootup, even with a fresh install, and no programs added, just what comes with Leopard.

    The freeze is a strange one. The entire system just stops. Power is still fed to the mouse and keyboard, but neither function. It's just dead. So you have to force shut it off, and then turn it back on.

    Many times it will not boot up. Instead, the chime sounds, but the screen stays black, and the fans eventually go up to maximum.

    Again, upon reboot, it will freeze up a few minutes later.

    Sometimes it takes a while for it to freeze, and strangely enough if you're running a program, it might take a while for it to happen. But it does eventually stop running.

    It didn't do this under Tiger, so it has to be a software issue.

    But consider this...

    I reformatted the drive again, this time opting to zero-out all the data as well.

    A fresh install of Leopard seems to be fine. Then I run the software update. It freezes up before it finishes downloading all the updates.

    So... is it a Leopard issue? I can find that out by reinstalling Tiger, but won't have the chance to do that until Monday. But we would really love to have Leopard on it because of the improved networking.

    Or has something gone wrong with the hardware? I can't do a HW test because the original install discs that came with the G5 have gone missing.

    Before I installed Leopard for the second time, I looked at the error logs. Nothing seemed out of the ordinary, but maybe I just missed something.
    Another thing... it was fine for a while under Leopard. Then this started happening.

    I can't remember what might have caused it, but here are the additional programs we've installed on it: Adobe After Effects, Final Cut Studio 2, Flip4Mac WMV Studio, and Adobe Premiere Pro.

    Anyone else who has had this issue, have you come to a solution?

    PS.
    Does installing Bonjour on Windows really help with networking?
    Also, any reason why the G5 has issues with which LAN port it's connected to? There's 2 ports near the G5. One works fine. The other does not. But the MacBook Pros can work on both. Perhaps it's related to the freezing issue.
     
  2. zmttoxics macrumors 65816

    zmttoxics

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    #2
    Do you have any add on cards like a SATA raid adapter?

    Also, do you have TechTool Deluxe or something you could run?
    The OEM disk it came with will also have a diagnostic tool on it to try.
     
  3. RoboCop001 thread starter macrumors 65816

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    #3
    Actually, we do have a small 4 HD RAID attached to it. So there's a card in there for sure. I tried turning the RAID off, but I suppose even if the RAID is off, and it's the card driver's fault, it would still cause an issue.

    Should I install the driver? Leopard was still able to see the RAID without it. (I'm not actually sure if we have that disc either, or if it even came with one)

    As for the G5's OEM disk, unfortunately it's gone missing. So I can't do any hardware tests on it.

    We don't have any other diagnostic tool though.

    The thing is, is that G5 + Leopard + the RAID was working fine the first time. Then suddenly it had this freezing issue. But it's possible it's the RAID + Leopard issue. I'll install the driver on Monday (if I have the disc available).

    Thanks for the reply. :)
     
  4. zmttoxics macrumors 65816

    zmttoxics

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    #4
    I would pull the card out of the machine.

    I had one in my G5 and it was crash city even with out the drivers installed.
     
  5. UltraNEO* macrumors 601

    UltraNEO*

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    #5
    Umm...

    If memory serves me correctly, didn't the G5 2.5 DPs have some inherent faults? Regarding the Logicboard and processors? Though those issues does depend largely on which revision you have. I know one of them had fault CPU's that cause the entire system to halt and crash intermittently.

    I remember a friend suffering lots of problems with their new system back in the days.. I'm not entirely sure is your issues related however...
     
  6. RoboCop001 thread starter macrumors 65816

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    #6
    I'll try that first thing when I get in to work on Monday. Unfortunately we kind of need that RAID lol But the thing is, it didn't do this under Tiger... you know what, I think I'll install Tiger and see if it keeps freezing. If it does, I'll remove the card.

    If that's the issue, can you recommend a good card that's not too expensive? But I don't think that's the issue, because we would have experienced this before Leopard... hmm..

    I hope we don't have one of the faulty ones. I don't think we do, because it never did this under Tiger. So I'll put Tiger back on to see if it is a Leopard issue. But what the issue is about Leopard, who knows...

    If it continues to freeze under Tiger, maybe it was just a matter of time. But does this mean I can get a free repair from Apple? If that's the problem, anyway.

    Hypothetically speaking.... if I go back to Tiger, and there are no issues, does anyone have any idea what the issue with Leopard might be? Keep in mind that it has this problem with a fresh install without OS updates and without installing additional programs, as well as after you do OS updates.
     
  7. zmttoxics macrumors 65816

    zmttoxics

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    #7
    Could be a CPU going as well, but its more likely another component died first (hence the chasing the raid controller).

    Is this model water cooled? Might be a good idea to check for leaks too.
     
  8. Sun Baked macrumors G5

    Sun Baked

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    #8
    I going to say, it could be a drive going bad.

    The hard freeze and not always starting when turned on is a darned good sign of a bad drive. This along with a drive that tends to get corrupted. The hard freeze is generally when the drive is asked to do something, and it doesn't do it or stops in the middle.

    ---

    Basically, I'd say if you pulled all the hard drives, booted from a DVD and ran a hardware test -- there likely wouldn't be any freezes.

    With a PPC, as long as the bad drive is selected as the boot volume, and is in the machine -- booting from the optical, and leaving the drive in the machine will still freeze the machine (has to do with how open firmware operates, only way around this is to yank the drive).
     
  9. RoboCop001 thread starter macrumors 65816

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    #9
    Hmm... I don't think it's water cooled. They don't have any fans, right? This one definitely has fans, and they gradually go up to maximum when this freeze occurs.

    Does that mean the CPUs are still doing something? Or does it just mean there's nothing to control the fan speed, so they just go up? It takes about a minute for them to reach max though.
     
  10. RoboCop001 thread starter macrumors 65816

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    #10
    Yeah, it could be a bad drive. The Internal HD is just as old as the computer, which is a couple of years now, I think.

    And it works totally fine when it's booted from the Leopard disc. No freezes at all. Hmm... but you say that even booting from the Leopard disc, while the bad HD is in the computer, will still cause the freeze? hmm.... so does that mean it isn't the HD?

    Unfortunately, the original disc that came with the G5 has gone missing, so I can't run any hardware tests on it. Disk Utility doesn't come up with any problems. I'll check the SMART status of the drive by looking at System Profiler (if it lets me get that far lol) on Monday.
     
  11. Sun Baked macrumors G5

    Sun Baked

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    #11
    The bad drives, tend not to show as bad in SMART. Hardly ever do until they stop working.

    The differences in how the OS's tend to use the drive and cache things does ... one OS can be causing the drive to reach failure more often than the other by using it more.

    The dying while downloading is also a sign, since you are asking the drive to exercise the mechanism to the point of failure.

    I always tell people to pull the drives, and see what happens, since it is so easy compared to the iMac and most of the notebooks, and putting in a new drive with the OS isn't very expensive either.

    Basically, everything you have said generally is listed as a sign of a bad drive.

    Might be something else, but generally I always tell people to backup their data quick with those problems.

    Edit: that, and the drives seem to degrade as quick as floppies used to these days.
     
  12. ascender macrumors 68000

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    #12
    I'd be tempted to remove and additional cards, drives, RAM etc. Put the machine back to a base spec and see if the problem still occurs. Maybe even do a rebuild with Leopard? The process of elimination is important when trying to diagnose this sort of fault.
     
  13. zmttoxics macrumors 65816

    zmttoxics

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    #13
    You can use Onyx to test the start up volume.

    The water cooled models did still have fans, but the cpus had individual self contained water cooling systems.
     
  14. Sun Baked macrumors G5

    Sun Baked

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    #14
    As someone who went through two bad drives on PPCs, when the clock and the mouse freeze -- it is likely the drive.
     
  15. RoboCop001 thread starter macrumors 65816

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    #15
    Ah I see, alright. I have noticed that Leopard seems to use the HD more than Tiger. My MacBook Pro's drive never sleeps under Leopard, but it did under Tiger after the set time in Energy Saver. Even my external LaCie drive can't seem to sleep as often.

    I'll see if my boss would go for getting a new HD (it's a tiny company of 4 people, so costs are more sensitive). Is it possible to boot up from an external FW drive? But hopefully my boss would go for it, to save the machine. We could probably use another drive anyway for scratch disc purposes, since the G5 is a workstation for AfterEffects and such. That'll kill the drive after a couple years, I'm sure.

    Hmm now that I think about it, it makes complete sense that it would be the drive. I mean, the machine is 2 years old, and it's been doing Final Cut, After Effects and Photoshop 5 days a week. The cache/scratch disk for those programs must be pretty hard on the drive.

    I've done a rebuild of Leopard, and the problem still happens, even zeroed out all the data. I'm going to try to remove the RAID card anyway as well though, just to make sure.

    I'll check out Onyx as well. But it just does software checking right? As far as I can tell. Still good to have though, so I'll check it out :)

    Yep, the whole thing. So I'm thinking it's most likely the HD. Maybe the reason it didn't freeze under Tiger was because Tiger is less HD intensive. Plus, with the update to Leopard and the indexing of the drive, that might have pushed it over to failure for the first time. So it might have been the update that did it.

    There are cheap but good HDs out there, so I'm sure I'll be able to convince my boss to get one. Even if I have to pay 50% of the price (it was my idea to upgrade to Leopard after all, the networking is just so much better).

    Any recommendations on a good workstation HD that isn't too expensive? Something that'll last and is strong. I'm thinking about 200GB should be enough, since we have the RAID, which I think is 500GB.

    Thanks for all the replies, and I'll be back on Monday to let you all know how it went. :)
     
  16. Sun Baked macrumors G5

    Sun Baked

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    #16
    Then you are looking at $50-75 after tax for a 200-250GB desktop SATA drive. Probably a lot less with a Christmas sale.

    Good thing is it is the time of the year for sales, and you can look at Best Buy, Staples, Office Depot, etc. advertisements and shop to see who has a good price without leaving the office.

    So for marginally more than the cost of a case of paper you should likely eliminate the drive as a source of the problem.

    Though, as I said, removing the drives and even using that FW drive to boot and play with for a couple days should help.

    Even if the drive isn't the source of the problem, decent drives almost always get used for something and with spare bays in the machine ... loading a backup copy of the OS on it, or partitioning the drive into two parts and loading Tiger and Leopard on it could be useful.
     
  17. RoboCop001 thread starter macrumors 65816

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    #17
    Hey, that dual OS thing isn't a bad idea! I think I might just have to try that out too.

    That's a really good price. That's true, this time of year there are always sales going on.

    So I'm sure I can find a really nice drive and not even go over $100, even if the drive isn't the problem.

    Plus, I have a friend who works at Future Shop! So I can get a discount on that drive. I think I'll just have to get that drive no matter what, haha.

    On a completely unrelated note... my MBP (late 2006) HD is only 120GBs. Is it worth upgrading the HD at this point? I don't have AppleCare. But I've got about 7GB left, and I want to leave most of that free space for virtual memory. I'm just afraid that when I get the machine back, the cover won't be completely on right... but maybe they'll end up fixing my slightly-loose display hinge when they put the cover back on, heh. It makes a squeaking/creaking sound on the right side. I bumped the top of the lid on the bottom of my desk....

    Thanks again for all your help. :)
     
  18. RoboCop001 thread starter macrumors 65816

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    #18
    Well it's definitely not the hard drive.

    I just removed it and booted up with a fresh Leopard install from an external drive. Still froze about a minute after the desktop appeared. Could it be the indexing of the drive? But why would that do it...

    I'm removing the RAID card to see if that's the problem. Then I'll reseat the RAM if it's still doing it. Maybe one became loose.

    After that... I'm not sure what it could be besides a hardware fault.

    I'll try reinstalling Tiger on it tomorrow if I can find the Tiger disc. If that fixes it, then it's a Leopard issue. But what could it be about Leopard??

    Booting up from the CD results in no freezing, but that's a cut down version of Leopard right?

    Anyways, on to removing the RAID card...


    EDIT: Actually it's a Dual Processor 2.7GHz G5. With 2.5GB of RAM. Model name is PowerMac 7,3. The L2 Cache is 512KB per CPU.
     
  19. zmttoxics macrumors 65816

    zmttoxics

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    #19
    Which is water cooled. Check for leaks at the base of the system while you are removing the raid card. You will have to remove the cpu covers to see.
     
  20. RoboCop001 thread starter macrumors 65816

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    #20
    I juuuust booted it up. lol...

    I'll try that next if it freezes up again.

    Now I play the waiting game.
     
  21. zmttoxics macrumors 65816

    zmttoxics

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    #21
    Nothing to try really. If its begun to leak, your hosed.

    Edit: typo.
     
  22. RoboCop001 thread starter macrumors 65816

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    #22
    Uh oh, there's no way to repair it?

    I'll look around to figure out how to remove the CPU cover, looks like it's attached to the PCI card shelf by two clamp things. Is it hard to remove?

    It's running off of the external HD and I've removed the RAID card. So far it's fine. I ran all the software updates and I just finished installing AfterEffects CS3.

    Now I'm in the middle of installing Final Cut Studio 2.

    So far so good!
     
  23. zmttoxics macrumors 65816

    zmttoxics

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    #23
    Yes the cover is easy to remove. Once unscrewed, it should slide out.

    So with the raid card out, the machine seems stable again? Starting sound like you found your answer...
     
  24. RoboCop001 thread starter macrumors 65816

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    #24
    Yeah. Hopefully it was the RAID card. I'm just going to keep it running on the external the rest of the day and see what happens though.

    Do RAID cards have drivers? And if so, is it possible that the drivers that come with Leopard just don't work well with that card?


    Now onto the final step (once I've completely confirmed that it's the card...)

    Just so that I don't have to reinstall everything again, what's the best clone disc utility that's free? I'd like to clone the external HD onto the internal drive. I'd just like to consider that first, but if the best option is to just install everything again onto the internal drive, that's what I'll do.
     
  25. zmttoxics macrumors 65816

    zmttoxics

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    #25
    All components (even mice and keyboards) have drivers. And yes it is possible that Leopard just isn't compatible with it. The card I have is only compatible with Tiger as well.
     

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