Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Wanting a new product instead of a remanned doesn't increase e-waste. The returned product can enter the product life cycle just like the reman that Apple wanted to give the customer. Getting a reman doesn't retroactively reduce Apple's production of new products nor it's use of raw material (which is the goal, btw). The new iPad the customer receives is already made. Besides, the remans can be given to customers outside of the Netherlands. It's not like they'd be sitting in a warehouse somewhere.


No she wasn't right. She was unscrupulous and you were naive. That had to be a seriously cut rate insurance company praying on your lack of knowledge. No reputable insurance company would suggest used parts as a replacement. The liability alone would not be worth the risk. Insurance companies would total out a car before risking a repair with used parts. Maybe you meant OEM parts vs aftermarket parts, at least I hope so. Aftermarket parts aren't used.

No. He's not wrong. My dealer works with a local body shop. He has certain insurance companies using used body panels, glass, whatever. We even have certain aftermarket warranty and certain auto insurers that won't let us use our parts. They ship us the parts they want us to use. It's crazy. We will see from time to time, cars come in that look fine until you pull the door panel off and see half of the inside of the door is a completely different color.
 
This is actually bad news for consumers because it will unnecessarily drive up prices of new goods. Unless the iPad was DOA, it was a used product when it went in for repair, and expecting a brand new replacement is unrealistic.

The inability to make repairs down at the individual component level is what led manufactures to have replacement, refurbished sub assemblies or entire replacement units. I first started seeing refurbished subassemblies in the 1960's. Prior to that circuits were simpler, there were more qualified repair technicians, and labor costs were relatively lower, and repairs were made at the component level. Nobody with a 1950's TV set going in for repair would get back a new TV, it would be 99% their old one and 1% the replacement part.
Did that 1950's TV set of yours break within 6 months?

You people are all judging this without knowing Dutch law. Any sale of that kind can be canceled within 6 months if the product is faulty and you would get your full price back.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TechGeek76
She's better off with a "remanufactured" iPad. They go through more throrough testing than new devices.

What makes you think that? They hook it up to the same diagnostic program and pass the same tests as every other iPad out there.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TechGeek76
If only you hadn't jumped the conclusion Macrumors is any good at translation.

Apple has to pay 100,- for every day they don't comply with the court order.
[doublepost=1493139156][/doublepost]
You get 2 years of full warranty anyways. It's what you pay for at the get go. You don't get a new full warranty when your device is replaced, just the remaining warranty.

Your first point is right, seems like people believe she would get €100 for each day from 2015.

The second point I disagree with, if you buy a device, it breaks after 4 months and can't be fixed, the warranty should be 2 years again since the device is new.
What if it breaks 1 month before the 2 years end, you'll get the new device but only get one month, what if it decides to play dead after 1 ½ month, you are left with a almost new brick.
 
That's okay...as long as the rest of us that live in The Netherlands don't have to foot the bill! :p

Sorry, could'n't resist it.

On topic, this strikes me as the right decision.
Off topic... A friend of mine told a girl at a bar that he was from Holland. She earnestly asked, "Oh, do you speak Hollish?"
He smiled and quickly replied, "A little, but I am fluent in Netherlandish."

On topic, what I'm worried about is Apple having higher costs for doing warranty replacements, and making it a bit of a harder stretch for a replacement (like having an inventory of new 2 year old devices in stock for warranty replacement), and resistance to do replacements.

For me, I don't mind factory refreshed items for warranty replacements, but I think a compromise can be made:
How about, for the first 90 days, a new replacement is given, and after that, a refurb?

(Proposed by a guy that got a warranty replacement on day 729 of AppleCare for battery issues.)
 
Many years ago, a truck I owned was in an accident. Some parts—I don't remember which ones—needed to be replaced, and the insurance company rep said they'd be replaced with used parts. I said, wait, why used parts? And she responded, the parts before the accident were also used.

I didn't like that answer at the time, but she was right: They were used parts. They were used by me. That I bought the truck new was immaterial. The truck, and its parts, were no longer new. They're used.

Some do-good insurance commission, legislator, or judge somewhere might order that insurers pay for all new parts, and some people might cheer this "pro-consumer" measure. But now, at least, I realize that nothing comes without a cost, and such a policy would mean more expensive insurance, additional waste, and little real gain.

The same is true if Apple and other electronics makes can't replace a used device with a used device: warranty costs will go up, at least some of those costs will be passed on to Dutch customers, and more waste will be created. There is no free lunch.

To quote another economist: there are no solutions. Only tradeoffs.
I would assume that had that car broken down after 2 weeks, you would not accept old replacement parts but wanted brand new ones.
 
This is actually bad news for consumers because it will unnecessarily drive up prices of new goods. Unless the iPad was DOA, it was a used product when it went in for repair, and expecting a brand new replacement is unrealistic.

The inability to make repairs down at the individual component level is what led manufactures to have replacement, refurbished sub assemblies or entire replacement units. I first started seeing refurbished subassemblies in the 1960's. Prior to that circuits were simpler, there were more qualified repair technicians, and labor costs were relatively lower, and repairs were made at the component level. Nobody with a 1950's TV set going in for repair would get back a new TV, it would be 99% their old one and 1% the replacement part.

Would you accept sending your 4 month old car into Apple and getting a 1.5 year old was water damaged refurbished car back (It's just a shiny as a new car on the outside)?
 
  • Like
Reactions: TechGeek76
No. He's not wrong. My dealer works with a local body shop. He has certain insurance companies using used body panels, glass, whatever. We even have certain aftermarket warranty and certain auto insurers that won't let us use our parts. They ship us the parts they want us to use. It's crazy. We will see from time to time, cars come in that look fine until you pull the door panel off and see half of the inside of the door is a completely different color.
Crap. Screw that. My wife took a trailer hitch into the side of her Prius 2 years ago. The adjuster said it could be frame damage and just wrote the car off as totaled after a cursory examination. I'm pretty sure the car wasn't totaled but who am I to argue with a check that covered a 3 year newer car?
I've personally used certain used parts to repair cars. Buying a door, rear axle from a car with front damage, or bumper cover - from a salvage yard? Yup, all day long. My insurance company doing the same thing? I would lose a shoe in somebody's butt.
 
What makes you think that? They hook it up to the same diagnostic program and pass the same tests as every other iPad out there.

When you manufacture something new, 99.99% of the units will have no problems with the other .01% having a defect. When they refurbish iPhones and iPads, they're taking units from that .01% and fixing them. So the odds of getting a defective refurbished unit are lower than if you just buy a new one.

And even if it has about the same odds of having a defect, I guarantee no one could tell the difference between new and refurbished side by side. And it's cheaper too.
 
Your first point is right, seems like people believe she would get €100 for each day from 2015.

The second point I disagree with, if you buy a device, it breaks after 4 months and can't be fixed, the warranty should be 2 years again since the device is new.
What if it breaks 1 month before the 2 years end, you'll get the new device but only get one month, what if it decides to play dead after 1 ½ month, you are left with a almost new brick.
Because you pay 700,- for 2 years of warrented use, and you would have gotten it.

If you pay for 1 phone that gets replaced you still havent payed for 4 years of warranty have you?

You pay for a garranteed use for 2 years. How ever many devices it would take.
 
Crap. Screw that. My wife took a trailer hitch into the side of her Prius 2 years ago. The adjuster said it could be frame damage and just wrote the car off as totaled after a cursory examination. I'm pretty sure the car wasn't totaled but who am I to argue with a check that covered a 3 year newer car?
I've personally used certain used parts to repair cars. Buying a door, rear axle from a car with front damage, or bumper cover - from a salvage yard? Yup, all day long. My insurance company doing the same thing? I would lose a shoe in somebody's butt.

I agree 100%. You were correct in that they prey on people's naïveté. Geico is one of the worst offenders. They even have their own body shops and pretty much say you need to use theirs or they aren't covering it. Thing is in my state it's illegal to say that. Definitely do your research when it comes to your rights.
In your case, the Prius would likely have had the damage. The company won't risk repairs since once they start, they have to finish them. They can't total the car after. So it's a safer bet to just total it and move on.
It's a dirty game.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 69Mustang
What is going on in your head that enables you to look at two subjectively identical devices that only differ in the box which they were shipped and judge one as inferior because parts in it may have been around the block in the past.
I would understand your point if we were taking about a store return that was shrink wrapped and stuck back on the shelf, but that is not what Apple is doing.

IF this were an enterprise level piece of equipment, where you could purchase support for years and years. Then I would accept Refurb hardware. Given that the SLA of applecare is a finite term, I would not accept a refurb. If you want to give me a refurb, give me the opportunity to secure factory support for a far longer term with annual renewals.

Apple may have an expense in refurbing, but it is adding a positive to its bottom line when it swaps new for used, and yes they are still USED pieces of equipment regardless of how many inspections you give them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TechGeek76
while each one is free to have opinions and express them without stepping on the toes of others I can't understand while taking sides with the manufacturer in this case, posting comments like "this will drive prices up", "freacking judge"or "you won't get a new replacement for your 1950 TV set "

This was a device under warranty and even if the customer cannot tell the difference at plain sight between brand new and re-manufactured, replacing a defective device still covered by the standard warranty, with a brand new is what a company with the customer appreciation that Apple has should do, and this is how the judge ruled the case.

Did Apple need to go to this extent in order to save maybe 200 euros? Say 300? Set a precedent?

This was not a 1950 iPad nor a two bucks device from a no-name company this woman paid for. She did not pay with Monopoly money either.

This happened to someone else, who is not important and can be mocked simply because it was not you
 
Last edited:
Apple will just change their warranty to cover this situation in Holland by allowing the customer to have their unit shipped to China, repaired and shipped back (six weeks) or for the customers convenience - a refurbished unit sent via over-night DHL.
 
It shouldn't suggest that to you; you're making up information that simply isn't given. The ruling, as given here, doesn't speak to repairs. It only encompasses that the customer's broken device is replaced with a new one iff a replacement is offered by the warrantor.

I'm not making anything up, I live in country where I get 12 months warranty and by law anything I buy must last a reasonable leangth of time, and that does not mean a year. That's why this ruling held, their are several countries I believe forcing Apple to change it's Apple Care policies, Italy being one:

From 2012 where they breached EU law

http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/mac/eu-law-forces-apple-highlight-two-year-warranty-3348755/

Then in 2013 in Belgium it was in trouble over Apple Care

http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/mac/eu-law-forces-apple-highlight-two-year-warranty-3348755/

It has a very poor track record on obeying EU law in Europe, and it has been punished for it too. So I'm really not surprised that the law in this case sided with the plaintiff and against Apple. EU consumer protection law is much better the in the US.
 
Um, yeah actually. That's how this usually works. The ruling almost certainly sets a precedent for other devices. And probably not just phones and tablets, but consumer goods in general.

In fact, there's a good chance that's where the reasoning for the ruling came from. Like, somewhere in Dutch legal history someone tried to pass off a used washing machine as a warranty replacement and 'boom' a judge has to now apply that reasoning to Apple.
It is far more complicated. In general the above does not work in The Netherlands, every case is different and thus treated like that. However, if it looks like it is similar to another case then yes, a judge may use that case to base his decision upon. It requires more than 1 case for it to set a precedent though. The use of other cases and precedents isn't always necessary because the case and the law are quite clear. What we are talking about here is the consumer law which applies to consumer goods in general.

The product and the manufacturer are the least important in these cases (manufacturer is of no importance and the only thing important with a good is whether or not it falls under the consumer law). Judges look at all the other stuff. When the product was bought for example (in the first 6 months the seller has to proof the product isn't at fault, after that 6 months the buyer has to proof the product is at fault). That alone can make quite a difference. This was the case here (the iPad failed after 4 months which is within that 6 month period).

In this case the iPad couldn't be repaired. The consumer law is very clear in that case and we've seen it before in another case that made the frontpage here. In that particular case the judge ruled that Apple wasn't allowed to give a refurbished one. In this case Apple tried it with a remanufactured one and the judge has ruled that this also isn't allowed (it shows you can't fool a judge by naming it differently). The plaintiff has pointed this out to the judge (it's in the verdict, point 1.5). In both cases the plaintiff made a case that a refurbished/remanufactured isn't the same as a new device because Apple sells them for a lower price than new devices.

Another important thing to know and understand is that in both cases they referred to the famous Quelle case in which the EU court was asked to give a judgement about repair of a product. They based it upon the EU regulation and since members have to implement that regulation it also means that this judgement has to be taken into account. It is this judgement that has let to the verdict in the other case as well as this case.

So to summarise: in other words 2 different judges ruled the same in 2 cases that were nearly identical which is what you'd expect and also what you want because that means that this law trustworthy as there is no double standard.

This will lead to Apple repairing far more devices rather than simply swapping them out. Enjoy having them tell you "We're going to need to send it in.
The point in this case was the fact that the device wasn't repairable at all. In that case the manufacturer has to hand out a new one. Giving a refurbished isn't allowed (the first case), doing the same but naming it remanufactured (this case) isn't allowed either.

Should take about 2 weeks." rather than sending you with a refurbished replacement on the spot.
They have more new ones in store than refurbished so it probably is quicker and easier for Apple to simply hand out a new one. And mind you, this isn't only a Dutch law at play, this is EU regulation at play too (see the Quelle case...it's a German case btw, not Dutch). And again, in this case the device was deemed irreparable by Apple themselves.

The court applies the law as given. There is nothing stopping Apple from offering a refurbished device in exchange for a rebate, if the buyers agrees.
Yes there is, that would be called "The Law" and it is the very reason why we have these 2 verdicts. There are only 2 options: new device or full refund (actually you are undoing the buy so you hand in the broken device and you get your money back).

However, Apple pretends that new and refurbished devices are equal, but the law assumes that if your product is irreparable, then the consumer never received a decent product as advertised to begin with and is entitled to start over with a new device.
Something like that. In this case it was pointed out that refurbished/remanufactured are not equal to new because Apple is selling new for a higher price.

Apples next solution will be to repair only. No exchanges on any items. Only repairs. So my 30 minutes in the apple store just turned into 2 weeks coming back.
News for you: this is already the case in the EU due to the regulation; just about every manufacturer does this. The entire point in the previous and the current case is the fact that Apple tried it and came to the conclusion that they CANNOT repair it. That's what irreparable means. The only option they have then is the give a full refund or a new device.

Completely false, unless Dutch law forbids repairs. What she's entitled to is her device being repaired, period. Anything above that is a courtesy. She's only "entitled to a new replacement" if Apple chooses not to repair, or can't repair, the existing one.
Yes you are indeed completely false. As stated above Apple has deemed the device irreparable so no repair possible. The law gives you 2 options: full refund or new device. Now if the device was reparable then Apple is allowed to do that. Since it is in its first 6 months after buying they are not allowed to charge money for such a repair (see the Quelle case).

The ruling, as given here, doesn't speak to repairs.
You didn't read any of it did you? ;) The ruling DOES speak of repairs, see point 1.3 of the ruling which clearly states she went to Apple for repairs first and Apple said it couldn't repair it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: edvj
So now Apple can offer 2 choices. We will swap it out for a refurbished unit, or we can send it away for repair, which will take 3 weeks. Your choice.
 
Um, yeah actually. That's how this usually works. The ruling almost certainly sets a precedent for other devices. And probably not just phones and tablets, but consumer goods in general.

In fact, there's a good chance that's where the reasoning for the ruling came from. Like, somewhere in Dutch legal history someone tried to pass off a used washing machine as a warranty replacement and 'boom' a judge has to now apply that reasoning to Apple.

I'm sure Apple and all other manufacturers' legal departments are busy drafting up new warrantee terms to negate this ruling as much as possible.
 
I'm sure Apple and all other manufacturers' legal departments are busy drafting up new warrantee terms to negate this ruling as much as possible.
Ireland is the only place where Apple is above the law. Everywhere else they have to do what the law says. Changing their warranty terms is not going to change that fact.

€100 a day?! I like my iPad, but I'd take $40,000 to be without it for a year.
Only when they don't do as the judge ordered (not supplying a new iPad within 2 weeks after the ruling). This is standard procedure in almost every case here and it is done to make sure that the ruling is taken seriously and carried out. Works heaps better than saying "do it!".
 
Yes there is, that would be called "The Law" and it is the very reason why we have these 2 verdicts. There are only 2 options: new device or full refund (actually you are undoing the buy so you hand in the broken device and you get your money back).

Wrong, these are merely the two options a seller is obliged to offer. Nothing is stopping the parties from negotiating something else. If the consumer accepts a refurbished device in exchange for a rebate, then that is completely consensual. This judgment only clarifies that a refurbished device is not an acceptable replacement.
 
I hope this doesn't become standard practice. Quality refurbishing is fine and helps minimize e-waste.
I would be surprised if she could even detect a refurb vs a new device without being told.

I bought two refurbished AirPort Extreme and both failed after a few months. Some high precision nano electronic components just have a limited life span especially at solder-and-glue-Apple, so having refurbushed parts in a replacement unit is crap.

If I buy refurb to save money and e-waste its my decision so getting it replaced by another refurb is fine. But not if I buy a brand new device.

I know the high value of consumer rights in Europe seems outlandish for Americans. But its not ment to piss off manufacturers. Its ment to make the companies produce usefull and long lasting quality products.
 
I imagine they'll also rule the same for, oh I don't know, every other OEM? A Samsung device, or an HP laptop: no refurb parts, or remanufactured parts, or refurb/remanufactured devices, and it has to be brand-new? Reckon that ruling will extend to all others?

Yeah, I didn't think so.



Now this is absolutely ludicrous. The cost for that would easily exceed the price of a new iPad in the first place. What kind of toilet brush judge was ruling this? Did the claimant have emotional distress for the duration of their working-fine-but-it's-not-brand-new-so-therefore-I'm-dissatisfied device?

Unbelievable.
There's been a mistranslation. It actually says, in Dutch, that Apple has to give the woman a new iPad starting today. For everyday Apple is late, the company's got to pay a €100 fine.

So if Apple takes a week to send her a new iPad, they'll have to pay a fine of €700.

The fine exists so companies won't say "Okay, the judge has ruled you are entitled to an entirely new product. We'll give you one, as the judge has told us.— five months from now..."
 
Don't buy from Apple. In the UK I buy from John Lewis as their customer service is better then Apples. I had a dead pixel with a Sony Tablet I got one Christmas, took it in and showed them, brand new replacement plus a refund as they had dropped the price of the tablet since I got it! Now THATS customer service.
I buy my iPhones and iPads from them, peace of mind no nonsense customer service wins for me.

They will then eat the cost, and try and sell the service replacement which is illegal.
Any warranty replacement is subject to Apple or legal policy.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.