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Dutch Regulator Says Apple Shouldn't Force Dating Apps to Offer Separate App for Alternative Payments

Wildkraut said:
You got out of context and quietly switched from Indie Developers to Large Dev Teams, anyway there are free solutions for both of them. Of course they do, set decent CI/CD up to overcome your large Dev Teams issues.
Indie's can even use the free Visual Studio Community Edition.

Get Visual Studio Code, Eclipse, AndroidStudio, MonoDevelop, ATOM, or VIM, just to name a few IDE/Editors.
Get a free compiler for example GCC or newer CLANG/LLVM if you need one for c++.
Depending of what you intent to build you can use e.g. QT(dynamic link it), MS .NET MAUI (soon), Flutter, just to name a few newer toolkits. If it suits your needs, you can use Electron(Web Chromium Thingy), too.

There is absolutely no obligation to pay thousands to MS to develop on/for the Windows platform.
Soon Android Apps will natively run on Windows and you will have even more choices.

Xcode is not free, you pay it with $99 + 30% fees, which probably ends with far more than thousands of dollars, depending of your app sales.
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I didn't switch contexts. I specifically said I need to pay thousands of dollars which means I cannot use the free community edition due to the large team size. And not all Indies can use the community edition if you are indie development team of 6 people or more, its against the licensing to use the community edition.

Visual Studio Code and free "basic" text editors is not a replacement for the tool set Visual Studio, Rider and other bigger IDEs support. Maybe if you work on simple indie projects those free ones are fine, but not for enterprise level software. Not even for my video game projects too. VS Code is very VERY limiting.

And yes, Xcode is free. I have it downloaded and I do not have a $99 fee for it.

And besides, you are missing the point and going down a rabbit hole. Why does anyone buy Visual Studio if there are free stuff? Because the others are as feature rich, low quality, bare bones and other reasons. So just like I think Microsoft should be able to pay the Visual Studio developers, Apple should be able to pay the Xcode developers. $99 a year isn't enough to pay those salaries. I fully expect if Apple needs to open up and not take the cut they take, Xcode will be similar to Visual Studio pricing models which will immediately limit some indie developers.
 
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zarmanto said:
It certainly sounds like a conflict of interest. When you have a subjective analysis determining the success or failure of a thing, you can't also allow an entity which benefits from one decision or the other to make that analysis, as their obvious bias will taint their decision. I mean, I don't know all of the details of what goes on behind closed doors in the Netherlands... but if that's what is actually going on here, than I suspect Apple will continue to "fail" this analysis until the Netherlands can no longer extract any further fines from them.
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This is how regulation is done in EU. The government doesn’t dictate how you must do change, but what qualifications it need to fulfill, then private companies are free to interpret the guidelines.

This prevents micromanaging of the government as extremely broad ramifications that a literal step by step enforce
 
robco74 said:
Right, Apple should just force the issue. Force them to outline the conditions under which they will permit companies to do business within the EU. Apple can then adapt their business to comply and move on. The EU is probably still a big enough market for them to stick around.

Businesses comply with the law, they don't make it. If politicians are unhappy, they are the ones with the power to make changes - to business rules, tax laws, etc. That applies to both sides of the pond.

Apple already does business in China, which is an incredibly restricted market. I'm sure they would be willing to comply with whatever the EU wants.
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There is a very big risk the EUCJ will do a very punishing ruling. But apple can always complain to the EUCJ directly if they are confident.
 
I7guy said:
Either they broke a law or not. A legal monopoly is kit breaking a law. Laws can be made to force change even when no law is broken. But apple will collect its commission….
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Well they did? They objectively broke the law concerning anti competitive actions in a dominating position. No new law was mad.

We will see if apple will collect its commission. This is not a guarantee

Edit: I mean EU commission is investigating apple for anti competitive actions in the AppStore
 
gnomeisland said:
It just seems like they are offering a foot to shoot here. Of course Apple will (rightfully, it is a big change and security liability) scrutinize apps that legally allow 3rd party payments more heavily. By having only one app you risk delaying updates for every country and forcing users to allow for geofencing and location tracking so the legally required "features" are available only in The Netherlands. Of all the international legal action against the App Store this one seems like they are writing the "what not to do" section of the playbook.
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Exactly. Apple may be limiting these unreasonable changes to their market as it should be. These secondary dating apps will not work in other markets and will protect those not under the jurisdiction of the idiots in that country.
 
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bookofxero said:
When you use your phone to "order" an Uber or food delivery, you are not purchasing the goods or services from Uber or the food delivery service. The drivers are independent contractors that are running an errand for you. Have to pay a subscription fee to the food delivery service? You can bet your arse Apple is taking a cut of it.
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Funny tho. Apple isn’t collecting a fee on Uber subscription. Uber just released their function and apple caved.
 
coolfactor said:
ACM is making assumptions. Developers are required to submit a Netherlands-only app binary, and ACM describes this as those developers needing to "build a new app" from scratch. That couldn't be further from the truth. A developer just duplicates their existing app and makes a NL copy with the additional requirements. If they correctly organize their code, they can still use shared libraries between these two versions, so there's minimal code duplication.

Silly regulators making decision about things they don't understand.
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I think you don’t understand what the court is saying. If it’s a copy is of little relevance. The fact they need to make a new app with only one payment system is breaking the provision of multiple payment options
 
robco74 said:
Right, but if Apple pulls the option for all developers, what can the ACM do? Unless Dutch law can compel a private company to offer a service.
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Honesty. At this point with the EU. They may as well start doing that.
They are basically stating that you (the company) has to create something that didn't exist before AND do it the way we say do it, regardless of the fact that we know nothing about how it works or what it will take to make it work AND still secure your device/OS/customers from whatever these changes "may" cause.
Carry on while we fine you $5 million a week, cause we can.

This is why I say, "F" them. Remove the app(s) and move them to the web only. Do what you want there.
 
Sophisticatednut said:
Well they did? They objectively broke the law concerning anti competitive actions in a dominating position. No new law was mad.

We will see if apple will collect its commission. This is not a guarantee

Edit: I mean EU commission is investigating apple for anti competitive actions in the AppStore
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No it seems they subjectively were micro-regulated. Same as a cop giving you a break in a speeding ticket.

Pretty sure it’s a guarantee apple will collect its commission. Would be no reason to do business in the Netherlands then.
 
erikkfi said:
I suspect Apple is going to come to regret undertaking thermonuclear war on a European nation's regulatory body. You've got to think that the EU regulators are closely watching the way Apple is thumbing its nose at the situation and repeatedly violating both the letter and spirit of what the Netherlands agency is trying to do here.
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I have to agree Apple is acting like government regulations and laws do not apply to them. I think the ACM might have to make the fines costlier or even consider banning all Apple products from the region until they comply with the laws and government regulations.
 
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Stunning_Sense4712 said:
I have to agree Apple is acting like government regulations and laws do not apply to them. I think the ACM might have to make the fines costlier or even consider banning all Apple products from the region until they comply with the laws and government regulations.
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Good suggestion. Make the Netherlands government officials look like idiots.
 
MallardDuck said:
You know, I agree with not having multiple app stores. We all knew about the walled garden before we bought the phones, and their curation is definitely a strong way to enforce privacy regs.

But third party payment systems? Eh....that's a tougher one. Apple monetizes their investment via the app store and rev shares. If app can use third party payment systems, then how does apple get paid for their development tools and other infrastructure? Maybe force a flat 'listing fee' for apps that offer third party payments? Or require a minimum price for the app itself?
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Apple pay’s for it by competing on price with other app stores/payment vendors. Let’s not forget Apple makes money off of their marked up devices as well too.
 
Sophisticatednut said:
Well they did? They objectively broke the law concerning anti competitive actions in a dominating position. No new law was mad.

We will see if apple will collect its commission. This is not a guarantee
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These regions will see the tax money they get from these same companies dry up because their model depends on Apple support to survive. Apple gave them the tools to build a business and partnership on their platform to sustain it but now they want that for free and it’s about to get shutdown. Apple is a for profit public company that has a responsibility to make a profit for its stakeholders that include shareholders and employees.

A store with an outside payment mechanism is no longer an asset it becomes a liability. Apple has very little tolerance for Liabilities of any kind. Remember, until it became cheaper to borrow money to buy their own stock back, they had zero debt.

Even some their most loved products got the axe when they proved unprofitable. The App Store minus the revenue will be dead to Apple and they will stop supporting it to invest that into an internal system they control. The loss will be to all of the developers. They will loose access to custom APIs and be forced onto webapps like in the beginning with the first iphone in 2007.
 
alchemistmuffin said:
Wonder how long before Apple gives ACM A huge middle finger by pulling out of Dutch market entirely?

I know Apple wouldn’t do it, but at some point, Apple will likely grow tired of it and will likely teach the regulators a lesson by pulling out of the market……..
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Haha, I hope apple does that. It would figuratively start thermonuclear war with EU if they did that.
As the famous us saying goes.

WE DON’T NEGOTIATE WITH TERRORISTS
 
Ethosik said:
I didn't switch contexts. I specifically said I need to pay thousands of dollars which means I cannot use the free community edition due to the large team size. And not all Indies can use the community edition if you are indie development team of 6 people or more, its against the licensing to use the community edition.

Visual Studio Code and free "basic" text editors is not a replacement for the tool set Visual Studio, Rider and other bigger IDEs support. Maybe if you work on simple indie projects those free ones are fine, but not for enterprise level software. Not even for my video game projects too. VS Code is very VERY limiting.

And yes, Xcode is free. I have it downloaded and I do not have a $99 fee for it.

And besides, you are missing the point and going down a rabbit hole. Why does anyone buy Visual Studio if there are free stuff? Because the others are as feature rich, low quality, bare bones and other reasons. So just like I think Microsoft should be able to pay the Visual Studio developers, Apple should be able to pay the Xcode developers. $99 a year isn't enough to pay those salaries. I fully expect if Apple needs to open up and not take the cut they take, Xcode will be similar to Visual Studio pricing models which will immediately limit some indie developers.
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If you tied yourself to Visual Studio, it was your choice, or the choice of your employer.
However, there are plenty of alternatives, i already named a few, specially for new projects.
Visual Studio is not an obligation to get things for Windows done, simply as that.

Dunno what an Enterprise Software is per your definition, usually it's dry ERP, CRM, PLM stuff like SAP offers, which is build on Java btw. Eclipse or Netbeans is the IDE of choice for Java stuff.

E.g. if Qt is good for Autodesk Maya UI, Adobe Photoshop UI, etc. it's good for almost anything.

There is a free "bigger" IDE for anything, regardless of which development language you go.
The key thing is, who is a A-Player, B-Player or C-Player as Steve Jobs said once.
Lack of knowledge often leads to the "comfy and more expensive" solutions, and Apple makes use of it.
$99 here and 30% there.
 
Stunning_Sense4712 said:
The Netherlands goverment would be idiots not to hold Apple accountable when they are thumbing their nose at them and showing Apple is above the law in the Netherlands.
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That would require decisive action. We all know that isn't going to happen. There will be loud complaining and handwringing, Apple will make some small concession, and we'll be back at this again in a few months.
 
justperry said:
That's called contempt, pretty sure the ACM will deal with that with another fine.

Apple did something similar in the UK years ago, judges weren't amused by Apple, can't recall what it was about.
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I think it would be so if they didn't do "something". Rather if they just sat there and every week handed them $5 million, and said see you next week or something. But, I think they are attempting to work this out in a way that is more universal. They don't want to have to do one thing here and one thing there, and have this mess of configurations all over the darn place.

And to piss them off. Which I'm for. Very much. :)
 
genovelle said:
These regions will see the tax money they get from these same companies dry up because their model depends on Apple support to survive. Apple gave them the tools to build a business and partnership on their platform to sustain it but now they want that for free and it’s about to get shutdown. Apple is a for profit public company that has a responsibility to make a profit for its stakeholders that include shareholders and employees.

A store with an outside payment mechanism is no longer an asset it becomes a liability. Apple has very little tolerance for Liabilities of any kind. Remember, until it became cheaper to borrow money to buy their own stock back, they had zero debt.

Even some their most loved products got the axe when they proved unprofitable. The App Store minus the revenue will be dead to Apple and they will stop supporting it to invest that into an internal system they control. The loss will be to all of the developers. They will loose access to custom APIs and be forced onto webapps like in the beginning with the first iphone in 2007.
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You’re living under faulty assumptions.
1: apple payed less than 1% tax on all profits earned from the whole of EU
2: if apple only allow web apps and no native apps or stores it will kill the iPhone.
3:iOS developers aren’t relevant to the Netherlands economy

4: this is not a real thing and comes from a faulty understanding of law.
a responsibility to make a profit for its stakeholders that include shareholders and employees.
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www.nytimes.com

Corporations Don't Have to Maximize Profits - NYTimes.com

www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com
 
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