Dutch Regulator Says Apple Shouldn't Force Dating Apps to Offer Separate App for Alternative Payments

[BaldiMac]

You’re living under faulty assumptions.
1: apple payed less than 1% tax on all profits earned from the whole of EU

That's obviously nothing close to the truth.

 

[I7guy]

Apple is not complying or acting in good faith hence why they are still being fined.

How are they not complying? They are not saying they won’t support this. Hence the acm doesn’t like the way apple is complying. Paying the fine is cheaper than opening the floodgates.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Honesty. At this point with the EU. They may as well start doing that.
They are basically stating that you (the company) has to create something that didn't exist before AND do it the way we say do it, regardless of the fact that we know nothing about how it works or what it will take to make it work AND still secure your device/OS/customers from whatever these changes "may" cause.
Carry on while we fine you $5 million a week, cause we can.

You obviously don’t know what you’re talking about when it comes to laws and regulations in EU. They have never stated that they need to create something new. That was apples decision to do that.

Regulators have literally told apple to stop doing something. Stop preventing dating apps in the Netherlands to use third party payments. Now if apple wants to invent a new api, that’s on them.

Apple won’t need to do manage the security. Payment solutions is EU is regulated and only regulatory approved solutions are allowed to be used.

This is why I say, "F" them. Remove the app(s) and move them to the web only. Do what you want there.

IF you want war, then Sure.

No it seems they subjectively were micro-regulated. Same as a cop giving you a break in a speeding ticket.

They wher not micro regulated. They had clear guidelines. Stop using anti competitive actions.
Allow multiple payments solutions in the app. Not: use one solution only in the app. But apple is fre to try and skirt the rules and ACM is free to continue to fine them

Pretty sure it’s a guarantee apple will collect its commission. Would be no reason to do business in the Netherlands then.

It’s not even close to a guarantee.
If apple exits Netherlands is not something the ACM cares about.

 

[sideshowuniqueuser]

The ACM is ridiculous. Expecting a multinational company like Apple to be able to special case dating apps in a specific country WITHOUT making developers submit 2 versions of the app shows a complete misunderstanding of how software development works.

A reason it has to be a separate sku AND pick one form of payment is so Apple SDK can carve out this special case without breaking every other kind of app and all apps for every other country.

This should simply be a link out to their website to pay. It warns the user and then launches Safari (not in-app WebView) and let’s the user go deal with the website to subscribe. This is what they should all agree on. In-app has the money go through Apple and web based has the money go through third party. And then tell them to account for Apple’s commission separately.

Apple should NOT have to provide or allow third party in-app purchasing because it can be abused to look like Apple purchasing and can confuse the user. Apple should also not be preventing links to purchasing on the open web.

You've never heard of an "if.... then... else...." statement?

 

[I7guy]

You obviously don’t know what you’re talking about when it comes to laws and regulations in EU. They have never stated that they need to create something new. That was apples decision to do that.

Regulators have literally told apple to stop doing something. Stop preventing dating apps in the Netherlands to use third party payments. Now if apple wants to invent a new api, that’s on them.

Apple won’t need to do manage the security. Payment solutions is EU is regulated and only regulatory approved solutions are allowed to be used.

IF you want war, then Sure.

They wher not micro regulated. They had clear guidelines. Stop using anti competitive actions.
Allow multiple payments solutions in the app. Not: use one solution only in the app. But apple is fre to try and skirt the rules and ACM is free to continue to fine them

It’s not even close to a guarantee.
If apple exits Netherlands is not something the ACM cares about.

It’s pretty much a guarantee…we’ll just have to see how it plays out.

 

[sideshowuniqueuser]

Dating apps are the one place apple should have control over payments. They are universally nasty rip off scum and the regulator here is doing the end users a disservice at the whim of the business.

If that was the case, then Apple should be banning them, instead of happily taking their huge cut.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

That's obviously nothing close to the truth.

It’s very true.
Apple Pay only taxes on eu sales In Ireland. And in Ireland they get tax breaks lowering their effective tax rate to less than 1%. You can look up the Ireland/ apple vs EU commission

 

[Sophisticatednut]

It’s pretty much a guarantee…we’ll just have to see how it plays out.

Can you point to a law making it a guarantee? Because I can point to many laws pointing in the opposite direction

 

[BaldiMac]

It’s very true.
Apple Pay only taxes on eu sales In Ireland. And in Ireland they get tax breaks lowering their effective tax rate to less than 1%. You can look up the Ireland/ apple vs EU commission

I've looked it up. As I said. it's no where close to being true. Feel free to post a source if you believe otherwise.

 

[robco74]

Apple is a private company. They don't make the tax laws, politicians do. If politicians are unhappy about the amount of tax Apple and others pay, they are the ones empowered to change the system, not Apple. I don't know too many people who voluntarily pay more in tax than what they owe.

 

[sideshowuniqueuser]

How do Apple get paid for their development tools and other infrastructure?

They could charge a yearly $99 price for their Apple Developer Program as it will be primarily the developer(s) who would be using and interacting with said development tools and other infrastructure.

How does Apple get paid for the dev tools etc on macOS? You know, the Apple OS that always has, and always will, have sideloading? Yep, the OS that existed before smart phones even existed.

 

[Wildkraut]

I've looked it up. As I said. it's no where close to being true. Feel free to post a source if you believe otherwise.

New report: is Apple paying less than 1% tax in the EU? - Tax Justice Network

We’re pleased to share this new study commissioned by GUE/NGL members of the European Parliament’s TAX3 special committee on tax evasion, tax avoidance and money laundering. You can read more about their very important work here. The report was written by Emma Clancy and Martin Brehm Christensen...

taxjustice.net

Apple paying less than 1% tax in the EU - TruePublica

In a nutshell then - Apple pays about 0.7% tax in the EU and have avoided paying somewhere between €4billion to €21billion along the way.

truepublica.org.uk

How Apple managed to pay a 0.005 percent tax rate in 2014

The answer is two subsidiary entities the tech giant created the that effectively own most of the company's intellectual property.

www.cnbc.com

Europe's 'unfair' Apple tax ruling sparks US anger

The US Treasury criticises 'unfair' tax rulings by the European Commission, following a demand that Apple hands over €13bn in unpaid tax.

www.bbc.com

They finally have to close these tax avoidance holes, in the EU and U.S.

 

[rhaezorblue]

Apple just pull out of that country. Or threaten to. If they dont back down, more iPhones for us? *shrug*

 

[theotherphil]

How does Apple get paid for the dev tools etc on macOS? You know, the Apple OS that always has, and always will, have sideloading? Yep, the OS that existed before smart phones even existed.

A model T ford existed before Tesla. Not quite sure of what your point is? A company and it’s products can evolve and learn mistakes from the past that ensures it stays sustainable going forward.

The only way you get to decide how a company runs it’s business is by not buying it’s products. You don’t get to shout from the sidelines “you’re doing it all wrong” all the whilst lapping up their products and services. If users weren’t happy, they can and would vote with their wallet.

As it stands, users are happy! Apple consistently wins user satisfaction awards on every product they offer. The fact that their user base, revenue and profits continue to grow show just how happy users are.

There are many smartphone manufacturers with many price points (LG, Motorola, Samsung, Huwaei, Oppo, Pine Phone, TCL, Nokia, Purism, OnePlus, Xiaomi, Fairphone, Volla - to name a few off the top of my head), but users overwhelmingly choose to buy Apple, despite having to pay more.

 

[I7guy]

Can you point to a law making it a guarantee? Because I can point to many laws pointing in the opposite direction

By the same token can you point to any guarantee that Apple won’t be able to collect commissions on IAP purchased from a 3rd party provider.

 

[Joe The Dragon]

apple does not take an 30% vig from legal sportsbook apps and I think they are setup with no In-app Billing
But they have web sites and let them say you can fund your account at X website.
So will apple cave in this and let them use an in app website link?

 

[BaldiMac]

New report: is Apple paying less than 1% tax in the EU? - Tax Justice Network

We’re pleased to share this new study commissioned by GUE/NGL members of the European Parliament’s TAX3 special committee on tax evasion, tax avoidance and money laundering. You can read more about their very important work here. The report was written by Emma Clancy and Martin Brehm Christensen...

taxjustice.net

Apple paying less than 1% tax in the EU - TruePublica

In a nutshell then - Apple pays about 0.7% tax in the EU and have avoided paying somewhere between €4billion to €21billion along the way.

truepublica.org.uk

How Apple managed to pay a 0.005 percent tax rate in 2014

The answer is two subsidiary entities the tech giant created the that effectively own most of the company's intellectual property.

www.cnbc.com

Europe's 'unfair' Apple tax ruling sparks US anger

The US Treasury criticises 'unfair' tax rulings by the European Commission, following a demand that Apple hands over €13bn in unpaid tax.

www.bbc.com

They finally have to close these tax avoidance holes, in the EU and U.S.

You posted a made up number based on Irish taxes paid on Revenue that’s passed through the Irish subsidiary. It has nothing to do with total taxes paid on EU profits.

 

[Tagbert]

Just to add - this is nothing new.

Apple has from the start limited their commissions to electronic consumables. Not "services (like dating)". Actually other than paying for 30 minutes with the girl in window 22 I am not sure what that even means. Not physical items. Not real-world actions such as Uber.

Apple charges fees only on iOS-based consumables - apps, skins, renewable subscriptions, in-app currency, etc. All "items" that are used within and on the phone / iPad.

by services like dating, I meant a fee or subscription for intangibles like a membership. In this case membership in dating apps like Match.com and Tinder. I only include that because that was the intangible good that was at question here. As you mentioned, from the start, Apple never charged a commission for tangible goods.

 

[mikethemartian]

How does Apple get paid for the dev tools etc on macOS? You know, the Apple OS that always has, and always will, have sideloading? Yep, the OS that existed before smart phones even existed.

Is this a rhetorical question? They make dev tools available to developers to promote software development for their hardware which they sell. Otherwise they would have to rely on third parties to create the development tools.

 

[robco74]

Well, there's already a third-party IDE that developers can use instead.

 

[PlayUltimate]

Apple should just go all the way. Lower the commission for all apps in the Netherlands, shut down Apple's payment processing service there, and force all developers to use third-party payment providers.

Then charge per download? Increase price for Dev tools?

I know all about Apple’s rules. I know all about their reader category that allows apps like Netflix, Spotify and Kindle to exist without IAP. Because those are popular apps from large corporations that Apple needs.

Netflix and Kindle do not offer any sales from their iOS app. Their business model is available to anyone. Some just choose not to do it.

 

[Cosmosent]

It's just a Stall Tactic by Apple !

Apple wants it to go Round-n-Round with the Courts !

IMO, some country, preferably here in the States, needs to step in & Declare Apple's tightly-controlled "curated" App Store a Public Utility !

Even movement of potential New Law on that topic will get Apple's attention, BIG time !

 

[I7guy]

It's just a Stall Tactic by Apple !

Apple wants it to go Round-n-Round with the Courts !

IMO, some country, preferably here in the States, needs to step in & Declare Apple's tightly-controlled "curated" App Store a Public Utility !

Even movement of potential New Law on that topic will get Apple's attention, BIG time !

Maybe Apple should just be taken over by the government.

 

[ksec]

Great idea, this would break their neck even quicker.
Please write Apple and offer your consulting services.
Thanks!

I think we are one of the few who are constantly trolling Apple supporters on Macrumors LOL.

I have been thinking of starting a website just to show all these comments. Pull out of Netherland, charge them 100% etc.

 

[Michael Scrip]

What are some actual outcomes here? Or... what do the Dutch want to happen with these dating apps?

- 30% cut to Apple
- 27% cut to Apple and "bring your own" alternative payment processor
- Sideloading

Obviously the Dutch hate options #1 and #2

And #3 isn't possible right now.

But if sideloading was possible... and these dating apps have to send customers to a website to download an app anyway... why not just keep customers on the website and do everything there? And surprise... if you sell stuff on a website... Apple gets a 0% cut!

So... are websites the answer?

I remember when Amazon didn't want to give Apple 30% for every Kindle book they sell inside the app.

So they didn't. You have to go to the Amazon website to buy Kindle books.

Yeah it kinda sucks for the user... but Amazon did what they had to do.

What will the Dutch dating apps do?