E-sata Express card , which one actually works.

[Timur]

I'm still waiting for the delivery:

1 37,90 EUR LaCie SATAII ExpressCard 34 2x eSATA Mac/PC
2 45,90 EUR Sonnet Tempo SATA E34P ExpressCard 34 2x eSATA Mac/PC
3 40,90 EUR format EC342SEMB 2fach eSATA ExpressCard34 bootfähig
4 40,90 EUR DeLOCK ExpressCard 34 1x eSATA Mac/PC
5 50,90 EUR Sonnet Tempo SATA Edge ExpressCard 34 1x eSATA Mac/PC
6 201,90 EUR Sonnet Tempo Pro SATA E34P ExpressCard 34 2x eSATA Mac/PC
7 65,90 EUR LaCie FireWire800 ExpressCard 34 2x FW800 Mac/PC
8 65,90 EUR Sunix Firewire 800 ExpressCard für ExpressCard 34-Steckplatz Mac/PC

All three E-SATA chipsets are included (SIL, JMicron and Marvell). My current Digitus card uses the JMicron one (no driver needed, bootable, but data-corruption with OS X inbuild driver) and the Firewire 400 card I tried in the past had a TI chipset. I also have one of the AKE cards (again JMicron) but that one came defect (data corruption on a Windows Vista based HP laptop where the Digitus works flawless).

I'm curious myself, but I don't expect any of these to work flawless. Because of the rather "random" nature of data corruption happening it will take some time to test them all.

Neither Apple nor the shop I bought these and the MBP dare to tell me which card *they* deem "compatible". Apple only sells one single ExpressCard in their US online-shop, not a single on in their german shop and the Apple Service Provider and Shop I use for repairs of Apple products don't sell any neither.

BTW, the 2010 models finally have their EFI/BIOS emulation fixed so that the EC slot can be used with Windows Vista/7 (bootcamped), no such fix for us 2008/2009 owners though.

 

[guillealv]

ake bc338

i have been following this thread for a while and three months ago i decided to buy the AKE BC388 on ebay and give it a try despite the mixed reviews (it is so dirty cheap that it was definitely worth the try...)

it has really performed amazingly so far. the speeds are well above what i used to get with FW800 and, best of all, i do not get dropped frames when editing in final cut pro.

i have done several tests with super duper and i have never gotten a dmg checksum test fail. i might have been lucky with this card... but i was ready to buy the owc slim card in case this one did not perform properly.

the drive is a samsung spinpoint f3 1tb (great value for the price, by the way!!) in a lacie d2 quadra case. macbook pro 15.4 pre-unibody.

hope this helps!

 

[FireWire2]

Neither Apple nor the shop I bought these and the MBP dare to tell me which card *they* deem "compatible". ...

Why don't you try the eSATA_EC21 that mikeheenan said it works

 

[hasole]

Has anyone tried the cheap 2 port card which uses a JMB362 chipset with Snow Leopard?

I'm interested in performance with 2 drives attached and copying data from one drive to another.

I'm assuming that if you had really fast drives you would max out the actual expresscard interface.

THanks

 

[Timur]

Why don't you try the eSATA_EC21 that mikeheenan said it works

Several reasons:

1) I don't see where to get it here in Germany.

2) It uses the very same SIL chipset that most other cards use (with the same problematic drivers/EFI stuff).

3) He used it only for a short time, so we do not know if it works.

4) If it works then it might be due to using it in a new 2010 Macbook model that comes with new ExpressCard hardware.

 

[cwsm]

I'm planning on putting my stock 5400rpm 320GB in a USB 2.0+eSATA enclosure. Will I have to plug in the USB 2.0 to power the drive? Which card do you recommend?

Priority:
Sits flush with MBP
Reliable
Speed
Bootable
Affordable

Also, is it possible to run Windows XP on the external with Bootcamp/VMware?
I'm on late'08 Unibody

 

[hasole]

I'm planning on putting my stock 5400rpm 320GB in a USB 2.0+eSATA enclosure. Will I have to plug in the USB 2.0 to power the drive? Which card do you recommend?

Priority:
Sits flush with MBP
Reliable
Speed
Bootable
Affordable

Also, is it possible to run Windows XP on the external with Bootcamp/VMware?
I'm on late'08 Unibody

Yes, esata is purely a data connection, you will need usb to power it.

I ordered a OWC slim expresscard which uses the same chipset as the AKE one that people use in this thread, it could even be the same card. But being OWC I trust it and their support is good (although it is probably twice the price). Does everything you want above.

You can run anything over esata, esata is as fast a SATA 150, which can more less be faster than any hard drive.

I carry a couple of external drives for VMware demos as well as a Win7 bootable hard disk and Ubuntu.

 

[Fusioncat]

Hi guys, please go to eSATAp version.
eSATAp version DON'T require external power source anymore
Its also USB compatible.

 

[Timur]

I am still working on this, but during the last few days I was able to reproduce electrical issues with the MBP that point to some very serious grounding problems (as I have suspected before). News is that I can make *any* tested ExpressCard (testes eSATA and FW800) drop its connection, Kernel Panic or freeze by simply touching the chassis around the USB and Displayport with a grounded connector like USB hubs or Display with their own power-supply (you can even see sparkles flying)!

According to users of the RME HDSPe audio-interface and my own tests with eSATA card here it makes a difference whether you are using the 9600M or 9400M. Switching the graphic-card can help reduce the problems.

My JMB360 based Digitus card now produces errors every time I test it. Also one of the FW800 cards had one port blown *plus* one port of my Onnto HD chassis. Given that there was *no* 12V power running through the FW at this time I suspect that the MBP might even destroy ExpressCards. I ordered an OWC from the US and will test it, too. till the FW card tested (one was DOA) was less susceptible compared to the eSATA cards.

Apart from this, here are some stats for the three different eSATA chipsets. Single drive throughput is about the same for all tested cards:

JMicron 360/361 & 362/363 - format EC342SEMB

AHCI compliant, thus bootable, removeable, reports S.M.A.R.T. and temperatures! No extra drivers needed on OS X or Windows.

Maximum combined throughput of JMB362/3 based 2-port cards seems to be only 150 mb/s.Seems most susceptible to the grounding problem though!

Silicon Image (SIL) 3132 - Sonnet Tempo E34P, Tempo SATA Edge, DeLOCK, LaCie

SCSI device with extra drivers on OS X and Windows. Removeable, but not bootable, no S.M.A.R.T. and no temperatures.

Current driver (1.2.4 from LaCie and Sonnet, 1.2.3 at SIL) works at full speed with Unibody 2008/09 MBP. Maximum combined throughput differs between 150-165 mb/s to something higher than my test-setup (which atm only sums to a total of around 180 mb/s) with two drives depending on which port/drive started writing first!?

Less susceptible to grounding than the JMicron based card, but depending on card-build (flush-fit seems more susceptible than others) and activated graphic-card (9400M vs 9600M).

Marvell - Sonnet Tempo Pro

SATA-Bay device with extra drivers on OS X and Windows. Not removeable, not bootable and no temperatures, but S.M.A.R.T. is supported. The eSATA cable can be hot-plugged after dismounting the active partitions, you just cannot savely "Eject" the whole drive.

Runs at full speed with two concurrent drives in my setup, regardless of writing order or anything. I will have to test with a faster second drive to see if I can reach the maximum, but I doubt it.

Least susceptible to the grounding problems in that it does not disconnect the drive as soon as the SIL and does not lead to data corruption as soon as the JMicron, but there are very reproducible dropouts that also show via its inbuilt LED. Also seems to depend on which graphic-card is activated.

The fact that it shows as non-removable SATA bay, that you can only access /dev/rdisk with administrator privileges and some strange message when booting into Windows leads me to believe that drives connected to the Marvell are reported as *internal* drives and not external ones.

---

Here is a report from an user of the RME HSDPe ExpressCard audio-interface where he reports that using the 9600M leads to freezing: http://www.rme-audio.de/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=34767#p34767

 

[JesterJJZ]

I got this one from OWC, works great.

https://eshop.macsales.com/item/Sonnet Technology/SATAIIE1PE34/

 

[Timur]

The Sonnet Edge was among my tested cards and I can post three test runs that ended with errors at different points in time, but early on. On the other hand I had dozend of runs that showed no errors for hours (literally).

This is the nature of unstable electric circuits, sometimes it works great, sometimes it doesn't work at all. But that kind of lottery is not what we want when moving important data.

 

[Timur]

I received the OWC flush card yesterday. But like the other JMB360 based cards the OWC produces errors/data-corruption within seconds even without anything else connected to the MBP.

I also noticed that the Marvell offers higher throughput with smaller data sizes than both the Jmicron and SIL based cards.

 

[Richard412]

I am still working on this, but during the last few days I was able to reproduce electrical issues with the MBP that point to some very serious grounding problems (as I have suspected before). News is that I can make *any* tested ExpressCard (testes eSATA and FW800) drop its connection, Kernel Panic or freeze by simply touching the chassis around the USB and Displayport with a grounded connector like USB hubs or Display with their own power-supply (you can even see sparkles flying)!

My 2008 MacBook Pro came with two power supply mains connectors.
1. No earth connection - touching the MacBook Pro case causes a harmless tingling sensation if no grounded peripherals are connected.
2. Earth connection - No tingling felt.

I have had problems with data corruption when booting from a JMicron eSATA card. This was when using the NON-earthed (NON-grounded) power supply.

My question - Would using the earthed (grounded) power supply help with the eSATA problems e.g. data corruption, freezing, etc?
The MacBook Pro would be "permanently" grounded, so would touching the chassis with a grounded connector (as explained by Timur) have any effect?

Thanks for your help.

Richard

 

[Timur]

My tests were done with the cabled connector, aka the one with the security (extra earth) lines.

 

[nfable]

Looking for speed in all the wrong places...

I have a Rosewill C-605 w/2 eSatas that've performed fairly well; but I've read of troubles with it in 10.6+ (have 10.5 currently)

Looking at OWC's site, you'd think the Sonnet Tempo Pro is given to man from the heavens @ $198.oo; so I Googled like any good shopper and easily found it at 75% off on Amazon...

Okay is this a deal, or are they just unloading a product released two years ago? I have 2 externals so would need 2 ports.

Really looking forward to a comprehensive session from you, Timur - any developments?

 

[Richard412]

My tests were done with the cabled connector, aka the one with the security (extra earth) lines.

Timur - Thanks for the quick reply.

Richard

 

[L0s7man]

How many PCI-e lanes does MBP actually have? They used to have 1x, like all other laptops. I think I've read somewhere that Vaio Z has 8x in the current revision, although its rather hard to verify. Any clue what MBP stands on?

 

[sammich]

I know this has probably been answered, but if I could just get personal confirmation that this OWC Card (Macsales, my local seller) are fully compatible under Snow Leopard and not problematic.

Thanks in advance

 

[Timur]

Question is not if the OWC is compatible with Snow Leopard but if it's compatible with your Macbook Pro. Like the other JMB360 based flush cards it's likely not working reliably with 2008/09 Unibody MBP.

 

[sammich]

Question is not if the OWC is compatible with Snow Leopard but if it's compatible with your Macbook Pro. Like the other JMB360 based flush cards it's likely not working reliably with 2008/09 Unibody MBP.

I was meaning to post that I have a Late 06 MBP (which it lists as being compatible). I know that it explicitly says my model works with the card, I just want to make sure before going out and buying a the hardware I'm going to attach with it.

 

[Heilage]

I know this has probably been answered, but if I could just get personal confirmation that this OWC Card (Macsales, my local seller) are fully compatible under Snow Leopard and not problematic.

Thanks in advance

I just bought that for use with a non-unibody MBP. Works just fine, I'm pushing a few TB through it as I type these words.

 

[Timur]

I have a Rosewill C-605 w/2 eSatas that've performed fairly well; but I've read of troubles with it in 10.6+ (have 10.5 currently)

This is one of the many SIL 3132 based cards and should work just as good and bad on 10.6+ as all the others I tested.

Looking at OWC's site, you'd think the Sonnet Tempo Pro is given to man from the heavens @ $198.oo; so I Googled like any good shopper and easily found it at 75% off on Amazon...

This looks like a very good offer if you are looking for the fastest card.

Unfortunately after further tests even the (for me still 200 Euro expensive) Tempo Pro produces errors without even touching the Macbook with anything, too. Strangely it seems to happen most if I do my tests within a few minutes after inserting the card (maybe a temperature thing). Errors with all cards even happen with the power-cord of the MBP plugged out (running on battery).

Actually I had some cards produce errors by simply touching the MBP chassis with my left hand close to the EC slot (left to the touchpad where you rest for typing).

But lo and behold: The Tempo Pro (Marvell) writes readable and reproducible error messages into the Kernel log whenever I touch the Displayport with my external display connector! And I mean the very second you touch it.

Looks like this:

"Sep 9 21:21:16 Timurs-MacBook-Pro kernel[0]: SonnetSATA::mv (ERROR) 56080 1: Ignore Serror in response flags
Sep 9 21:21:16 Timurs-MacBook-Pro kernel[0]: SonnetSATA::mv (ERROR) 56080 1: Recoverable HW error detected 00000020.
Sep 9 21:21:16 Timurs-MacBook-Pro kernel[0]: SonnetSATA::mv (ERROR) 56080 1: SerrIntRecoverable error detected 00000020.
Sep 9 21:21:16 Timurs-MacBook-Pro kernel[0]: SonnetSATA::mv (ERROR) SStatus 0x00000123:
Sep 9 21:21:16 Timurs-MacBook-Pro kernel[0]: SonnetSATA::mv (ERROR) SControl 0x00000300:
Sep 9 21:21:16 Timurs-MacBook-Pro kernel[0]: SonnetSATA::mv (ERROR) SError 0x00180000:
Sep 9 21:21:16 Timurs-MacBook-Pro kernel[0]: SonnetSATA::mv (ERROR) IF Ctrl 0x00000000: TXPort 0x0
Sep 9 21:21:16 Timurs-MacBook-Pro kernel[0]: SonnetSATA::mv (ERROR) IF status 0x00404034: RXFIS 0x34 RXPort 0x0
Sep 9 21:21:16 Timurs-MacBook-Pro kernel[0]: SonnetSATA::mv (ERROR) 56080 1: Clear Serror register(0x180000).
Sep 9 21:21:16 Timurs-MacBook-Pro kernel[0]: SonnetSATA::sataEventNotify@1 EventType = SATA Error eventError Recoverable Error
Sep 9 21:21:17 Timurs-MacBook-Pro kernel[0]: SonnetSATA::mv (ERROR) 56080 1: Unrecoverable HW error detected.
Sep 9 21:21:17 Timurs-MacBook-Pro kernel[0]: SonnetSATA::mv (ERROR) 56080 1: LinkDataRxErrUnrecoverableHW error detected.
Sep 9 21:21:17 Timurs-MacBook-Pro kernel[0]: SonnetSATA::mv (ERROR) 56080 1: Calling callBackFunc - host tag 0x3 (device tag 0x3) at 0x44704a60, next 0, prev 0, PMPort 0x0
Sep 9 21:21:17 Timurs-MacBook-Pro kernel[0]: SonnetSATA::sataCommandCompletionCallBack@1: MV_COMPLETION_TYPE_ERROR or _ABORT code = 01 errorCause = 000000a0"

... and so on and so on...

You may notice the bold "Unrecoverable Hardware Error" in between a mountain of other messages. And yes, most of the time your partition is unusable afterwards (the Marvell seems to be most prone to this).

 

[ximo]

Not very uplifting

Thanks for the thorough testing, Timur!

Do I understand this right, is using any eSATA ExpressCard with unibody MBP risky and will likely produce data corruption?

I'd like to use an external drive to run a virtual machine from, and write errors would probably be fatal. Is there no reliable way to use eSATA with unibody MBPs?

 

[Timur]

I don't know about 2010 Unibody MBP. These come with both: New ExpressCard hardware and EFI patches. So they may work better or may not.

The 2008/09 ones are not to be trusted. Some may work others may not, but at least the ones I tested do not work.

BTW, I took chrisandreae's script (thanks alot for that!) and built my own test-script around it and it really helps nailing these issues down on a more reproducible basis without having to transfers time-consuming gigabytes of data.

One thing that puzzles me and which makes things even worse. It can happen that you don't get any error for hours and hours while the test-script keeps running. Then you restart it and get errors right after just a few seconds.

This Wednesday I have an appointment with an attorney of the consumer advice center. And last saturday Apple opened an Apple Store in my town (we only have 4 of these in all of Germany). I don't expect them to be of any technical help, but since Apple 2nd tier support keeps insisting that I bring a "written statement from a certified Apple service provider" this may be a place to get it.

Because the problem with that demand is that certified service providers are *not* part of Apple and as such do *not* earn any money from just listening to my stories and given me written proof that Apple messed up, unless you leave your Mac for repair there.

Of cause Apple 2nd tier support did not even respond (!) when I asked them to point me to which service provider to go or alternatively give me a written statement that they will cover the costs of the examination at the service provider.

So the attorney and Apple Store it will be... Saftladen!

 

[Timur]

1.5 weeks ago an Apple Store opened doors in my town (this is only the 4th stoor in all of Germany). Since the attourney I went to didn't like to send letters to Ireland (Apple has no official adress in Germany) he agreed that it was worth a try to present the issues directly to an Apple "Genius" (aka a *real* Apple employed technician).

Last week I went there with my 17" 2009 Macbook Pro being frozen in OS X, which means that I had to carry it open in my hands because it went quite warm. I asked the "Genius" if he could think about any method how I could have made the MBP freeze. He answered "It should not be possible at all". Then I made it freeze again right before his eyes by simply *touching* (not even connecting) the USB port with the USB cable of a Fireface UC while data was being transfered over an eSATA ExpressCard.

Furthermore I demonstrated how data corruption occurs even when you don't touch the MBP with both its PSU being connected *and* disconnected (aka battery power). Last but not least I gave them screenshots of irreparable HFS+ partitions and Kernel logs of the Sonnet Tempo Pro freaking out.

I left the MBP there with three different eSATA ExpressCards and three different cables (2x eSATA-eSATA, 1x eSATA-SATA). They sell an external HD with eSATA port there, but don't sell any ExpressCard to make use of it, nor do they recommend any apart from "they should *all* work". It's been 4 days since I left the stuff there and I will give them the full 5-7 days they asked for before I go back in (call my familiy if I don't come out within 2 hours).

I've not heard back from the Apple Store yet, but will give them until the end of the week (=10 days, but 7 "work days").

As a side note: The 2nd tier telephone support kept insisting that I bring a *written* statement from a Certified Service Provider. When I told him that I already tried that but that naturally the Service Provider has little interest in providing that service for free he said a PDF would do (as in: "You don't need it to be written down literally.").

When I heard about the Apple Store opening I asked the 2nd tier support if I could go there. No answer! He also asked me about which 10 cards I had been testing lately, since according to his record the american Apple techs only concentrated on the RME HDSPe being "incompatible". I send him the info. No answer!

Out of this experience I'd say Apple's 2nd tier support is brain-dead.