Excellent idea!!!
Let's hope this "direct" approach gets answers from Apple.
Thanks for all your effort on this problem.
Richard
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E-sata Express card , which one actually works.
- Thread starter Guy Mancuso
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Excellent idea!!!
Let's hope this "direct" approach gets answers from Apple.
Thanks for all your effort on this problem.
Richard
2.5 weeks after leaving the Macbook Pro 17" 2009 at the Apple Store and 22 months after my first call to Apple about the ExpressCard issue I have my first written statement by Apple saying:
Issue Verified: Yes
So far so good. Since the Apple Store is working on the issue for the first time they asked to first try another Logic Board replacement before discussing other options. I agreed and so my MBP stays with them for likely another week.
Interesting sidenote: When they booted from an external Firewire (!) HD they could not reproduce the issues, so having the Firewire connection running seems to have an impact. To me this seems to be another indication for electrical/power problems.
Issue Verified: Yes
So far so good. Since the Apple Store is working on the issue for the first time they asked to first try another Logic Board replacement before discussing other options. I agreed and so my MBP stays with them for likely another week.
Interesting sidenote: When they booted from an external Firewire (!) HD they could not reproduce the issues, so having the Firewire connection running seems to have an impact. To me this seems to be another indication for electrical/power problems.
Don't forget Barefeats reports reproducable enhanced SATA bus communication with the presence of a firewire HD....
u could be onto something
Sorry it was actual diglloyd @ macperformanceguide but here it is.
Pretty mind bending. I need to get a firewire "Dongle" since I don't like to leave me FW drive on whenever i'm not using it lol.
22 months after my first report to Apple, 4 weeks after turning in my MBP to the Apple Store and 12 days after signing the document that allows them to change the Logic Board:
The Logic Board change did not change/help the situation, which is no surprise since it was already tried before. So assuming an epidemic failure (is this the correct english term?) seem reasonable.
I will now get a current 2010 i7 based Macbook Pro, but asked the "Genius" to first conduct a test on one of the units from their store (they don't have 2010 models in their workshop for testing!).
Once we got through all of this I will publish my case number(s) so that anyone with similiar ExpressCard based problems can ask Apple for a replacement.
The Logic Board change did not change/help the situation, which is no surprise since it was already tried before. So assuming an epidemic failure (is this the correct english term?) seem reasonable.
I will now get a current 2010 i7 based Macbook Pro, but asked the "Genius" to first conduct a test on one of the units from their store (they don't have 2010 models in their workshop for testing!).
Once we got through all of this I will publish my case number(s) so that anyone with similiar ExpressCard based problems can ask Apple for a replacement.
1. Grabbed an OCZ Vertex 2 60GB for $99
2. I don't want to waste my stock Hitachi 320GB
3. Saw this on sale for $19.99 so I bought one because it is convenient, supports two 2.5" or 3.5" HDD, and cheaper than FW800 enclosures ($50+)
http://www.amazon.com/Thermaltake-Drives-Docking-Station-ST0014U/dp/B002MUYOLW/ref=cm_cr_pr_pb_t
Now my dual dock requires port multiplier support to utilize eSATA speeds with both drives. But I'm not sure if the BC338 supports port multiplier with my UMBP under OS X. eBay seller lists:
Should I buy the BC338 ($8 shipped) or this Silicon Image 3132 card ($40 shipped)? (I want a flush card.)
http://cgi.ebay.ca/Express-eSATA-Ex...074?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4aa5535dea
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Express-eSATA...|66:2|39:1|72:1683|293:1|294:50#ht_2988wt_956
My impression is that JMicron (OWC Slim) and all <$20 eBay cards are bootable and do not support port multiplier.
The more expensive Silicon Image 3132 cards (Sonnet Tempo Edge) are not bootable but have port multiplication.
I know both are unreliable in 2008-2009 UMBPs, but I'd like somebody to confirm whether either cards support port multiplier.
I have the late 2008 UMBP 15" with 9400M / 9600GT and I will try to reproduce the problem Timur is having once I get a card. Hopefully, Apple will offer me a 17" i5 replacement. And hopefully the new 2010 models won't have issues with whichever card I buy.
@Timur: To initiate the grounding issue, do I just plug in a mini-Displayport to VGA adapter while I am transferring files through eSATA? Does the mini-DisplayPort adapter need have to be connected to an external display? What's a common USB 2.0 device that uses an external power source? I think I have one of those hubs lying around, but can't remember if it came with a power supply or not
2. I don't want to waste my stock Hitachi 320GB
3. Saw this on sale for $19.99 so I bought one because it is convenient, supports two 2.5" or 3.5" HDD, and cheaper than FW800 enclosures ($50+)
http://www.amazon.com/Thermaltake-Drives-Docking-Station-ST0014U/dp/B002MUYOLW/ref=cm_cr_pr_pb_t
Now my dual dock requires port multiplier support to utilize eSATA speeds with both drives. But I'm not sure if the BC338 supports port multiplier with my UMBP under OS X. eBay seller lists:
But that could be under Windows with full Windows drivers only.
Should I buy the BC338 ($8 shipped) or this Silicon Image 3132 card ($40 shipped)? (I want a flush card.)
http://cgi.ebay.ca/Express-eSATA-Ex...074?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4aa5535dea
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Express-eSATA...|66:2|39:1|72:1683|293:1|294:50#ht_2988wt_956
My impression is that JMicron (OWC Slim) and all <$20 eBay cards are bootable and do not support port multiplier.
The more expensive Silicon Image 3132 cards (Sonnet Tempo Edge) are not bootable but have port multiplication.
I know both are unreliable in 2008-2009 UMBPs, but I'd like somebody to confirm whether either cards support port multiplier.
I have the late 2008 UMBP 15" with 9400M / 9600GT and I will try to reproduce the problem Timur is having once I get a card. Hopefully, Apple will offer me a 17" i5 replacement. And hopefully the new 2010 models won't have issues with whichever card I buy.
@Timur: To initiate the grounding issue, do I just plug in a mini-Displayport to VGA adapter while I am transferring files through eSATA? Does the mini-DisplayPort adapter need have to be connected to an external display? What's a common USB 2.0 device that uses an external power source? I think I have one of those hubs lying around, but can't remember if it came with a power supply or not
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The display has to be connected to the adapter and be plugged in to its PSU (and maybe even running, depending on your display). Doesn't matter if you use a Mini DP -> VGA, DVI or HDMI adapter. You don't have to plugin the adapter, but only touch the framing/chassis of the port on the MBP.
All USB ports and the Displayport have a metal framing around the port. When you touch the framing or the chassis at the framing/port you may see sparkles in dim light.
For USB you can try any USB device that comes with its own PSU, be it a hub, a harddrive or an audio interface. The problem is with the grounding. Don't attach any Firewire device to the MBP while doing the tests.
That all being said, the problems with eSATA cards occur independent of these things, even when you run the MBP only on battery (PSU plugged out). Still the issues are likely connected and based on electrical failures.
All USB ports and the Displayport have a metal framing around the port. When you touch the framing or the chassis at the framing/port you may see sparkles in dim light.
For USB you can try any USB device that comes with its own PSU, be it a hub, a harddrive or an audio interface. The problem is with the grounding. Don't attach any Firewire device to the MBP while doing the tests.
That all being said, the problems with eSATA cards occur independent of these things, even when you run the MBP only on battery (PSU plugged out). Still the issues are likely connected and based on electrical failures.
I already started a new thread
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1047274/
, before I found this.
Strange that searching these forums for "e-sata" gives an error...
Anyway, I'd appreciate any suggestions, which EC-cards fullfill this list:
1. Not cause kernel panics in MacBookPro5,2
2. Not cause corrupted data in block level copy with MacBookPro5,2
3. Support SMART
4. Support booting from external hdd with MacBookPro5,2
5. Support hot swap
Even better would be a card that fulfills the list and is "internal" (=no external parts when inserted in to the slot).
I already know that Sonnet's Edge does not support SMART and OWC Slim has problems with block level copy.
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1047274/
, before I found this.
Strange that searching these forums for "e-sata" gives an error...
Anyway, I'd appreciate any suggestions, which EC-cards fullfill this list:
1. Not cause kernel panics in MacBookPro5,2
2. Not cause corrupted data in block level copy with MacBookPro5,2
3. Support SMART
4. Support booting from external hdd with MacBookPro5,2
5. Support hot swap
Even better would be a card that fulfills the list and is "internal" (=no external parts when inserted in to the slot).
I already know that Sonnet's Edge does not support SMART and OWC Slim has problems with block level copy.
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I'm still waiting for the replacement MBP 2010 (going towards 3 weeks now). The Logic Board on my 2009 MBP was replaced again, but no change.
Did some voltage/amperage measurements meanwhile. Only 1.5 volts and less than 50 mA are enough to make the eSATA cards choke.
Did some voltage/amperage measurements meanwhile. Only 1.5 volts and less than 50 mA are enough to make the eSATA cards choke.
I would not count on it, but since *both* the PCI Express hardware and EFI have changed there at least is a chance (plus the fact that I reported the issues to Apple as early as December 2008).
Hopefully the 2010 model also fixes the weak Displayport that does flickering + banding with all available active Dual-Link adapters (Apple, Dr. Bott, Accell, even when only using single-link displays). This doesn't happen with a 21" Imac I tried, so it's the 2009 MBP. The screen also goes black for a second when you touch the MBP with external grounding (like the ExpressCard slot and similar to what Imac users report elsewhere).
But even if the 2010 does work I would not buy the AKE card again. It produces errors on a HP Windows laptop, too, while my Digitus (same chipset) does not. If you *must* have a flush card better go for the Sonnet Edge (SIL) or OWC (Jmicron JMB360).
PS: As a side note, the same BTO model that I am waiting on for nearly three weeks now ships within 3 days if you buy it new. Last time I waited 2 weeks for a replacement unit. These ship directly from China while Apple Online Store keeps their units reserved only for *new* customers. So much for Apple's great customer support. And all that after 4 weeks of repair time in the Apple Store already.
I'm a business customer who does work on his computer. At least I got them to order the new MBP *without* me having to give them my current one first (had to do that last time). I took the 2009 17" home and will turn it in once the new unit arrives.
Hopefully the 2010 model also fixes the weak Displayport that does flickering + banding with all available active Dual-Link adapters (Apple, Dr. Bott, Accell, even when only using single-link displays). This doesn't happen with a 21" Imac I tried, so it's the 2009 MBP. The screen also goes black for a second when you touch the MBP with external grounding (like the ExpressCard slot and similar to what Imac users report elsewhere).
But even if the 2010 does work I would not buy the AKE card again. It produces errors on a HP Windows laptop, too, while my Digitus (same chipset) does not. If you *must* have a flush card better go for the Sonnet Edge (SIL) or OWC (Jmicron JMB360).
PS: As a side note, the same BTO model that I am waiting on for nearly three weeks now ships within 3 days if you buy it new. Last time I waited 2 weeks for a replacement unit. These ship directly from China while Apple Online Store keeps their units reserved only for *new* customers. So much for Apple's great customer support. And all that after 4 weeks of repair time in the Apple Store already.
I'm a business customer who does work on his computer. At least I got them to order the new MBP *without* me having to give them my current one first (had to do that last time). I took the 2009 17" home and will turn it in once the new unit arrives.
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Well, I have ordered a SIL3132 based card after reading Timur's recommendation. I thought some of you might be interested in this.
Here is a news archive dated 04 Nov 2010:
http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/archives/nov10/110410.html
Where the 3rd paragraph mentions a SIL3132 based card working under SL with the latest driver from Silicon Image.
Here is Silicon Image's 1.2.5.0 driver released in July:
http://www.siliconimage.com/support/searchresults.aspx?pid=32&cat=3&os=3
Sonnett also released 1.2.5 on 10 Nov 2010:
http://www.sonnettech.com/support/kb/kb.php?cat=410&expand=_a3&action=b146#b146
Here is a news archive dated 04 Nov 2010:
http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/archives/nov10/110410.html
Where the 3rd paragraph mentions a SIL3132 based card working under SL with the latest driver from Silicon Image.
Here is Silicon Image's 1.2.5.0 driver released in July:
http://www.siliconimage.com/support/searchresults.aspx?pid=32&cat=3&os=3
Sonnett also released 1.2.5 on 10 Nov 2010:
http://www.sonnettech.com/support/kb/kb.php?cat=410&expand=_a3&action=b146#b146
Concerning the grounding/sparks issue. It depends largely on the combination of 3-prong vs. 2-prong power plugs. Using the 3-prong plug on the Mac PSU while using a 2-prong plug on a powered USB hub can trigger it for example.
Using the 2-prong Mac PSU plug when connecting a 3-prong external display should give you nice visible sparks. It's still less than 10 volts (3.5 volts with my current Logic Board), so nothing bad will happen except that the eSATA cards will fail miserably and OS X freezing is quite common.
I recently tested a ExpressCard audio interface again. It does neither crash, nor freeze or badly lose connection when the discharge happens. Instead it only produces audible crackling (up to full volume though). This shows that cards' HW, firmware and driver build plays a role, too.
Using the 2-prong Mac PSU plug when connecting a 3-prong external display should give you nice visible sparks. It's still less than 10 volts (3.5 volts with my current Logic Board), so nothing bad will happen except that the eSATA cards will fail miserably and OS X freezing is quite common.
I recently tested a ExpressCard audio interface again. It does neither crash, nor freeze or badly lose connection when the discharge happens. Instead it only produces audible crackling (up to full volume though). This shows that cards' HW, firmware and driver build plays a role, too.
3 weeks later I went to the Apple Store again to ask about the replacement. My repair status was changed to: "Repair cancelled" a few days ago, which made me wonder.
The replacement laptop seems to be lost. The store manager tries to contact TNT to get an idea of its whereabouts.
Just as a reminder, the very same laptop would have taken 3-5 days when bought new from the online store.
The replacement laptop seems to be lost. The store manager tries to contact TNT to get an idea of its whereabouts.
Just as a reminder, the very same laptop would have taken 3-5 days when bought new from the online store.
Just installed the 1.2.5 driver from Sonnett and testing my card right now.
Appears to be working great. My hard drive dock is 2-prong. My MBP is attached to the charger with the 3-prong cable. I powered up my tv, switched it to vga and hooked up the mini displayport adapter. But I am not seeing any sparks. I'm using a SIL3132 flush card from ebay. $40.
Update: The card supports port multiplier on SL
My dock requires pm to use both hard drives
I took the 2.5" out of my external goflex and slotted it in along with my stock 320gb
Here are some pics:
I hope it is reliable.
You will only see sparks if the voltage difference between both device's grounding is big enough. Even then it's no need to worry on every other computer (except for Imacs where people report similar issues). And you have to touch the metal framing around the port, not the aluminum chassis, while no other external device should be connected (to make sure it doesn't add its own grounding).
But the discharge is just one issue that can be worked around, the more relevant are the sporadic errors and freezing. Search for the script that someone posted earlier in this thread. Run it a few dozen times on a harddrive with *no* important data (could get destroyed). If it works for 2-5 minutes it likely will forever, but once you restart it can fail within seconds, so many starts are a better indicator than a long run.
I developed the script a bit further to allow different block-sizes and drives (and what I think to be the first implementation of key-input while a bash script keeps running, although it makes the data transfer a bit slower). I found that a block-size of 2 mb seems just to be the right size to get errors more easily.
As a side note: Interestingly errors seem to happen more often when connecting any drive *directly* via eSATA-SATA cable instead of going over the Oxford bridge chip (even when both use the very same grounding). Maybe this is due to the chip slowing down the connection slightly.
But the discharge is just one issue that can be worked around, the more relevant are the sporadic errors and freezing. Search for the script that someone posted earlier in this thread. Run it a few dozen times on a harddrive with *no* important data (could get destroyed). If it works for 2-5 minutes it likely will forever, but once you restart it can fail within seconds, so many starts are a better indicator than a long run.
I developed the script a bit further to allow different block-sizes and drives (and what I think to be the first implementation of key-input while a bash script keeps running, although it makes the data transfer a bit slower). I found that a block-size of 2 mb seems just to be the right size to get errors more easily.
As a side note: Interestingly errors seem to happen more often when connecting any drive *directly* via eSATA-SATA cable instead of going over the Oxford bridge chip (even when both use the very same grounding). Maybe this is due to the chip slowing down the connection slightly.
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Things start moving: OWC has put all 2008/09 Unibody Macbook Pro models on a BIG RED "not compatible" list for their eSATA ExpressCard.
http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Other World Computing/EXP34SATA2F1/
http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Other World Computing/EXP34SATA2F1/
Another interesting aspect of Apple's replacement policy. They really deem "my" Macbook Pro replacement stolen (during the transport from China to the German Apple Store) and have informed the police. For them this means that they cannot handle my case any further until they get a legal case number and then decide how to get "my" Macbook back to me (that never reached me or the Apple Store) in the first place.
Fortunately the Apple Store manager finds this somewhat questionable himself and will rather "order a new unit from Apple's online store" than have me wait for weeks and months until the legal case is solved.
This all is unprofessional beyond comprehension...
Fortunately the Apple Store manager finds this somewhat questionable himself and will rather "order a new unit from Apple's online store" than have me wait for weeks and months until the legal case is solved.
This all is unprofessional beyond comprehension...