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eBay Fraud Caught
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BenderBot1138 --> Here's a quarter, buy some compassion
BenderBot1138, those are some big words there. If someone came up to you, in apparent and obvious pain, saying they _think_ their appendix exploded... would you tell them to get lost, or ask them to get a bill of health from their GP?
I sincerely hope you're just a grumpy troll with nothing better to do around the holidays, and you really don't mean what you said.
And, for the record, I WILL help you cross the street.
<shrugs> Merry Christmas.
BenderBot1138, those are some big words there. If someone came up to you, in apparent and obvious pain, saying they _think_ their appendix exploded... would you tell them to get lost, or ask them to get a bill of health from their GP?
I sincerely hope you're just a grumpy troll with nothing better to do around the holidays, and you really don't mean what you said.
And, for the record, I WILL help you cross the street.
<shrugs> Merry Christmas.
Re: BenderBot1138 --> Here's a quarter, buy some compassion
That is TOO beautifull!! But maybe someones bended benderbot the wrong way. Oh well, kinda' gets me like A Christmas Story when the kid get's his bb gun and all. But oh, that leg lamp, where can I get one of those?
That is TOO beautifull!! But maybe someones bended benderbot the wrong way. Oh well, kinda' gets me like A Christmas Story when the kid get's his bb gun and all. But oh, that leg lamp, where can I get one of those?
Re: Re: BenderBot1138 --> Here's a quarter, buy some compassion
Oh, man, A Christmas Story is a classic!
"You'll shoot your eye out!"
Anyway. Peace.
Oh, man, A Christmas Story is a classic!
"You'll shoot your eye out!"
Anyway. Peace.
Re: And what about letting the Authorities do their jobs?
You make some great points bender and maybe we should all be gald that this wasn't the stalker scenario that you vividly painted. Is it illegal in Chicao to go out and take photos of someone's car or house? Was all the information that people obtained for him considered public knowledge? At what point did anyone do anything illegal for him? People standing up for themselves - that is what this country was built on. (well, that and tobacco)
You make some great points bender and maybe we should all be gald that this wasn't the stalker scenario that you vividly painted. Is it illegal in Chicao to go out and take photos of someone's car or house? Was all the information that people obtained for him considered public knowledge? At what point did anyone do anything illegal for him? People standing up for themselves - that is what this country was built on. (well, that and tobacco)
Re: Re: And what about letting the Authorities do their jobs?
I think you raise normal concerns for most people and good points Nipsy... and again... my objection is that we have no one's word for this other than the person who requested vigilanties to come out of the wood work.
I'd like to address a few of your genuine concerns.
First, you mentioned photographing an address is not illegal in this context. It in fact is, and falls broadly under a very well recognized branch of law that deals with Watching And Besetting. A general example which proves this branch of law in fact exists includes Anti-Stalking laws, designed to keep either a stalker or their agents from invading someone's privacy without lawful authority (a court's order).
Second, we have no evidence the person pursued every legal avenue. For all we know this person is a fugitive from justice who cannot go to the law with legitimate concerns because law enforcement officers would arrest them for some other crime, or perhaps they have a restraining order not to approach the person they are requesting help in dealing with. In the case where the person has a restraining order, a person who takes 23 pictures of their victims property would be guilty of Aiding And Abetting a criminal in the commision of a crime.
The Supreme Court makes it clear that their are limitations on the free exchange of information. When such information exchange violates another persons legal privacy and freedom, it is illegal. An example that proves this branch of law in fact exists includes the laws that make illegal the release of information pertaining to minors and rape victims.
This is a slippery slope to be sure, and we do NOT have anything other than the word of an individual. Even a group of individuals over electronic mediums does not constitute lawful authority to investigate and invade the privacy of a citizen of the United States. That person is entitled to feel safe in the fact that private citizens will not take the law into their own hands... that only legally state authorized persons will engage in such activities.
Shame for those who would condone such behavior... because I am positive they would be the first would cry out foul when one or several overzealous individuals showed up in their neighborhood and took 23 pictures of their home and family based on the word of a stranger.
If that doesn't convince you, then you should consider that in President Bush's neighborhood, it is legal to carry an unconceiled sidearm, and you are entitled to defend your property and personal privacy with lethal force.
I think you raise normal concerns for most people and good points Nipsy... and again... my objection is that we have no one's word for this other than the person who requested vigilanties to come out of the wood work.
I'd like to address a few of your genuine concerns.
First, you mentioned photographing an address is not illegal in this context. It in fact is, and falls broadly under a very well recognized branch of law that deals with Watching And Besetting. A general example which proves this branch of law in fact exists includes Anti-Stalking laws, designed to keep either a stalker or their agents from invading someone's privacy without lawful authority (a court's order).
Second, we have no evidence the person pursued every legal avenue. For all we know this person is a fugitive from justice who cannot go to the law with legitimate concerns because law enforcement officers would arrest them for some other crime, or perhaps they have a restraining order not to approach the person they are requesting help in dealing with. In the case where the person has a restraining order, a person who takes 23 pictures of their victims property would be guilty of Aiding And Abetting a criminal in the commision of a crime.
The Supreme Court makes it clear that their are limitations on the free exchange of information. When such information exchange violates another persons legal privacy and freedom, it is illegal. An example that proves this branch of law in fact exists includes the laws that make illegal the release of information pertaining to minors and rape victims.
This is a slippery slope to be sure, and we do NOT have anything other than the word of an individual. Even a group of individuals over electronic mediums does not constitute lawful authority to investigate and invade the privacy of a citizen of the United States. That person is entitled to feel safe in the fact that private citizens will not take the law into their own hands... that only legally state authorized persons will engage in such activities.
Shame for those who would condone such behavior... because I am positive they would be the first would cry out foul when one or several overzealous individuals showed up in their neighborhood and took 23 pictures of their home and family based on the word of a stranger.
If that doesn't convince you, then you should consider that in President Bush's neighborhood, it is legal to carry an unconceiled sidearm, and you are entitled to defend your property and personal privacy with lethal force.
Bender, lets face it, the legal system, and Police are undermaned. The Chicago PD looked at this as something from NOLA, and did not have time, when they have plenty of crime to look at in the Chicagoland area. This is not about the failure of the Police, although it is disturbing, it is about how people should take matters into their own hands when they have to.
The young man did what he had to do to protect himself. The theft was no different than someone breaking into his house and stealing his TV. He pursured the individual through legal means and developed a case that he provided to law enforcement, and they acted on it.
His actions have already saved at least one other person from the same nightmare that he is in right now.
Personally, I think he should be commended, and is an asset to the US citizenry.
The young man did what he had to do to protect himself. The theft was no different than someone breaking into his house and stealing his TV. He pursured the individual through legal means and developed a case that he provided to law enforcement, and they acted on it.
His actions have already saved at least one other person from the same nightmare that he is in right now.
Personally, I think he should be commended, and is an asset to the US citizenry.
Re: Re: Re: And what about letting the Authorities do their jobs?
Why? What law did they violate? How did they do wrong to the criminal that stole from this kid? Explain this to me please!
Why? What law did they violate? How did they do wrong to the criminal that stole from this kid? Explain this to me please!
This may be true, but that isn't a licence to take the law into our private hands. It might at best represent a need to lobby for more resources for state authorized law enforcement.
Good Points... Nipsy really makes me think as well... but still I obey lawful state authorities, and do not take the law into my own hands.
Re: Re: Re: Re: And what about letting the Authorities do their jobs?
Excellent point.... I actually edited my original post significantly when I noticed the point you correctly addressed.
Excellent point.... I actually edited my original post significantly when I noticed the point you correctly addressed.
Re: Re: Re: Re: And what about letting the Authorities do their jobs?
We also don't know that this individual did this... You used the word criminal, but that implies this individual has had a trail and been convicted of this crime.
I don't see that. We cannot try and convict people in public courts of opinion... we must submit ourselves to our lawfully elected and selected authorities.
I would point out that if this person was a state labeled criminal and not merely a person informally accused by a private citizen, the police would eventually get this person... but all evidence I see points the fact the state authorized authorities either did not find merit in the complaint, or were in fact acting on it according to the Laws of our land.
We cannot and must not abondon the rule of law.
We also don't know that this individual did this... You used the word criminal, but that implies this individual has had a trail and been convicted of this crime.
I don't see that. We cannot try and convict people in public courts of opinion... we must submit ourselves to our lawfully elected and selected authorities.
I would point out that if this person was a state labeled criminal and not merely a person informally accused by a private citizen, the police would eventually get this person... but all evidence I see points the fact the state authorized authorities either did not find merit in the complaint, or were in fact acting on it according to the Laws of our land.
We cannot and must not abondon the rule of law.
How would you feel if someone was stalking your daughter, and perhaps appealed to a bunch of overzealous nuts to put pressure on your daughter by making up a foolish story about someone stealing their computer... asking for someone to Watch and Beset your private residence?
Bender,
He did not make a trip to chicago and beat the guy senseless. He did not violate any law, he did not have any help from a person that did. He investigated. That is it. He did the right thing. Criminals have to learn that victims will not lay down and take things without backlash.
You have to understand that he did nothing wrong, nor break any law.
He did not make a trip to chicago and beat the guy senseless. He did not violate any law, he did not have any help from a person that did. He investigated. That is it. He did the right thing. Criminals have to learn that victims will not lay down and take things without backlash.
You have to understand that he did nothing wrong, nor break any law.
Re: Re: And what about letting the Authorities do their jobs?
Good point about the tobacco... Any law enforcement official will tell you there is a very broad branch of the law that forbids acts associated with Watching And Besetting by persons not lawfully authorized to do so, whether directly or by engaging some third party to do it.
A person's right to privacy and assurance that only lawfully authorized officials will take legal action against his or her person is not in the public domain, and moreover, is protected by very powerful law enforcement principles and officials.
It is of primary importance for everyone to realize that all legal complaints and prosecutions are the legal property of the state, and not individuals.
Good point about the tobacco... Any law enforcement official will tell you there is a very broad branch of the law that forbids acts associated with Watching And Besetting by persons not lawfully authorized to do so, whether directly or by engaging some third party to do it.
A person's right to privacy and assurance that only lawfully authorized officials will take legal action against his or her person is not in the public domain, and moreover, is protected by very powerful law enforcement principles and officials.
It is of primary importance for everyone to realize that all legal complaints and prosecutions are the legal property of the state, and not individuals.
Ultimately what I am saying is that since I have not heard the case... I cannot determine this individuals guilt. How can I say this person is either innocent or guilty... or for that matter, how can anyone here say this person is guilty without the sayso of the lawful authorities...
No... when vigilantism raises it's ugly head, or worse convinces lawful authorities to turn a blind eye to such actions, we can end up with a Witch Hunt in Salem or may Hollywood to root out Communists. Even maybe we'll all just decide to hate Jews like Hitler did... No... let there be no mistake that this overzealous pride in finding out some information is little more than vigilantism.
We are all treating a person we have never met as a criminal - using words like criminal and we have absolutely no evidence (this complainers word isn't evidence) that anyone has committed any crime here on the interenet. It is entirely possible this complainer never ever owned a computer ever.
No, No, No... the only movie of the week subject here relates to the unbelievable witch hunt that is possible and the actual lengths to which some people are willing to go to make themselve feel good or justify unlawfully invading others lawfully protected privacy... this is about just how fragile our freedom and democracy really is rather than some triumph of vigilantistic behavior in the face of the thinnest of accusations.
Bender,
The man handed the cop a fradulent cashiers check, and then was arrested. Yes, that is pretty good evidence. Also, he confesed. What else do you need?
The man handed the cop a fradulent cashiers check, and then was arrested. Yes, that is pretty good evidence. Also, he confesed. What else do you need?
Am I to take anyone's word that a police officer was actually involved in this? I have no evidence other than posts on the internet.
If in fact - and I have no evidence of this - a police officer actually was involved, I can only say "This time maybe an actual crime was present"... but what about next time though? What about when it's some stalker after your daughter... or maybe some child molester who want her pictures?
Look at the most serious problem with this whole stinky mess... an individual may have been foolish enough to send a computer to someone without actual payment in his hand. Everything on eBay warns against this stupid behavior. I repeat stupid behaviour.
Then, to compound his stupidity, he appealed to the stupidity of others to act with the EXACT SAME KIND OF STUPIDITY that first got him into the problem he claims exists.
Only a fool would act foolishly to help a fool out of his foolish predicaments.
Have you read this story at all? The kid had proof that he was ripped off. He brought it to the police, they couldn't (didn't) help, he came to us with the info. No one violated any laws, stalking or otherwise. If he was just some guy saying "hey, someone stole from me, let's get him" it would be a different story. This is what private investigators are there for.
I know you were just trying to be the voice of reason, but he should be commended for NOT going all vigilante on that thief.
He did all of this openly and legally.
I dont know much about computers, but I have a passion for this kind of work, Knapp said. And Eric had made it so easy. Hed really worked to put together this nice little package that couldnt be ignored.
Knapp arranged to accompany the Federal Express driver making the delivery. He said he arrested Christmas after the suspect accepted the package; a search of the house turned up another $10,000 in counterfeit cashiers checks. Federal Express also managed to intercept another computer sent to the house by an unsuspecting woman in New York, Knapp said."
that is from the Chicago Tribune today.
As for the other subject, you are talking about two totally different things.
Some stalker / pediphile that is after my daughter, planing a crime, and a victim defending themselves are two totally different things!
The stalker / pediphile would more than likely come up missing.
Knapp arranged to accompany the Federal Express driver making the delivery. He said he arrested Christmas after the suspect accepted the package; a search of the house turned up another $10,000 in counterfeit cashiers checks. Federal Express also managed to intercept another computer sent to the house by an unsuspecting woman in New York, Knapp said."
that is from the Chicago Tribune today.
As for the other subject, you are talking about two totally different things.
Some stalker / pediphile that is after my daughter, planing a crime, and a victim defending themselves are two totally different things!
The stalker / pediphile would more than likely come up missing.
What proof do you have that this guy actually had proof? It's heresay... just a RUMOR.
To respond to the vigilanty-by-degree defence... there aren't degrees... If we sacrifice our freedoms for the small transgressions, then what will be do when larger and larger trangressions present themselves, chewed, swallowed, and digested?
Again I repeat... this is a very slippery slope.
Originally posted by BenderBot1138
What proof do you have that this guy actually had proof? It's heresay... just a RUMOR.
Are you this dense? He had a delivery with the guys signature, the guy sent him a fraudulent check. He attempted to hide his real identiy. Joined ebay under a bogus name. Did the same thing to other people.
the guy tried to buy another laptop from the kid. He then took delivery of it and handed the police another fraudulent document. Had $10,000 more of bad cashiers checks, and confessed. Jesus, is that not proof!
Man, you would make a great attorney for the ACLU.
Today, we celebrate the first glorious anniversary of the Information Purification Directives. We have created, for the first time in all history, a garden of pure ideology. Where each worker may bloom secure from the pests of contradictory and confusing truths. Our Unification of Thoughts is more powerful a weapon than any fleet or army on earth. We are one people, with one will, one resolve, one cause. Our enemies shall talk themselves to death and we will bury them with their own confusion. We shall prevail!
1984
Thank you. That's what I meant. Proof. I don't see where you get the "losing our freedoms" part Bender. And the "what if he's a pedophile?" thing is really stretching.
He had proof. Gathered more. Took it to the police.
How many pedophiles and stalkers go to the police?
I suggest you re-read the original posts:
"Please help! Fraud victim
I recently was the victim of a fairly large fraud ($3000 for me is a lot of money). A man in Chicago bought a brand-new Powerbook 867 with a ton of extras from me Fedex COD (certified funds). Everything seemed OK, I've done this several times before with no problems. I even talked to the guy on the phone before I sent it out (I have his number). Turns out the cashier's check I got back was forged, phony, fraudulent. No such bank even. So now I'm out not only my computer, but also the $3000 and now my finances are in complete disaster area since I had already spent a good deal of the money on christmas shopping.
My question, and plea for help:
I figure this guy had the package sent to a drop, doing a reverse lookup on the address yields three phone numbers. Doing a reverse on the phone number he gave me, it turns out is a Nextel cell-phone, so I can't get a valid address without paying a private investigator. I've already filed police reports in Chicago, IL and New Orleans, LA (where I live). What I need help in is getting this guy's real address from his cell-phone. If there are any PI's out there or anyone with Nextel who can help, please let me know. Chicago PD isn't really going to do anything about this and I've got a trip coming up to Chicago, I thought I might at least try to track the guy down, at least have him arrested.
If you have any assistance or can help me in any way, please let me know. I'm a student and this much money is going to put me under."
There are a lot of bad people out there who could've taken advantage of our kindness, but how many would have gone to so much trouble? And had proof? And risked getting caught? It's not like he went straight from accusations to taking pictures of some guys house. There was a lot of work in-between.
You made your point. We get it. But dude, justice was done. We helped a fraud victim. Through legal channels. Nobody was hurt. Feel good for the kid. Feel good that a criminal was caught. Let it go.
(I know, nobody was hurt - this time. But it could have been much worse)