Eddy Cue Fears Surveillance State if FBI Wins iPhone Unlock Case

[JM]

You seem to be implying that this system with weakened security would be installed on every iPhone (or hard drive or file system) on the planet. That is NOT the case, but if it was I would agree with you wholeheartedly.

You may understand the tech, but you do not understand the law. The government is asking for a special OS to be developed and installed on specific phones, each of which have gone through the regular 4th amendment legal hurdles and protections of obtaining a warrant for inspection by a neutral judge. And that special OS would be maintained as proprietary by Apple, not the government. Nobody is asking Apple to weaken security on ALL iPhones. Apple can and should continue to develop strengthened encryption algorithms and protocols, but they also have to be able to comply with legal search warrants in order to assist the government in solving crimes. Developing a specialized OS that Apple maintains under their control and use only when the government has obtained a legal search warrant signed by a judge seems like a reasonable compromise.

No. You're forgetting the human element in this.

If a specialized iOS is made, even for one device, it has the chance of being stolen, sold by employee, whatever, from Apple.

Just because Apple has control of this "special" iOS, doesn't mean it won't ever leak through theft of disgruntled employee sale. it now exists and it has a chance of going into the wild, and that is what Apple and many tech companies want to avoid.

If I may: Nobel regrets inventing dynamite. But once it got out, it killed many. Point: once something bad is made, there's no going back.

 

[2457282]

As a real cuban, I have had a hard time supporting Eddie. However, on this one, he is making valid points. What the FBI is asking for is the start of a very slippery slope. He points to one possible end, a total totalitarian society that includes total surveillance -- Where is George Orwell when you need him?

Another part of the slippery slope is that once the software is in the wild (and the FBI is wild, i assure you), you lose control of this software and will be used by non law abiding people for no good without any court authorization - that could be hackers, governments, criminals, whatever.

Both parts of this slope are EXTREMELY dangerous, and I would prefer we not even get on the slope - at least until this is significantly better vetted.

 

[rdowns]

.

As a real cuban, I have had a hard time supporting Eddie. However, on this one, he is making valid points. What the FBI is asking for is the start of a very slippery slope. He points to one possible end, a total totalitarian society that includes total surveillance -- Where is George Orwell when you need him?

Another part of the slippery slope is that once the software is in the wild (and the FBI is wild, i assure you), you lose control of this software and will be used by non law abiding people for no good without any court authorization - that could be hackers, governments, criminals, whatever.

Both parts of this slope are EXTREMELY dangerous, and I would prefer we not even get on the slope - at least until this is significantly better vetted.

WHat's a real Cuban?

 

[technopimp]

So basically, between this stuff and the terrifying possibility (however remote) that we could have a President Trump, the US is basically entering its last days, right?

Pray for us, I guess.

 

[tgara]

No. You're forgetting the human element in this.

If a specialized iOS is made, even for one device, it has the chance of being stolen, sold by employee, whatever, from Apple.

Just because Apple has control of this "special" iOS, doesn't mean it won't ever leak through theft of disgruntled employee sale. it now exists and it has a chance of going into the wild, and that is what Apple and many tech companies want to avoid.

If I may: Nobel regrets inventing dynamite. But once it got out, it killed many. Point: once something bad is made, there's no going back.

No, I have not forgotten the human element in this. I think you are overstating the case and ignoring practical details.

Apple is legendary at keeping secrets. We all know this. Everyone in the computer business knows this. If any company knows how to keep secrets, it's Apple. But even if the specialized system DID get out by whatever means, nefarious or accidental, Apple could quickly issue a patch to all users and fix it via a system update within hours. So I'm not worried about that. What DOES worry me, and what should worry you too, is terrorists, human traffickers, drug dealers, kidnappers, pedophiles, rapists, etc., planning their activities on devices that our security and law enforcement personnel cannot track or access.

The other option, of course, is to have the boys at the FBI or NSA crack the security without Apple's assistance or knowledge, and use that system to exercise their warrants, their investigations, and who knows what else. I suggest that this is not a good option. I would never trust the government with the key. I would much rather Apple be a good citizen and cooperate with the FBI so they at least have some control over what is made and how it is handled.

And your dynamite example is ridiculous. Dynamite is not "bad". It has many useful purposes, including mining, construction, and demolition.

 

[mrgraff]

.


WHat's a real Cuban?

A real Cuban uses authentic Cuban bread not a baguette for their sandwich.

 

[trip1ex]

Meh the government has always been able to invade privacy through court orders in order to get information.

I guess the only reason question is, in what kind of ways can they do this safely with today's technology if any. And that's the discussion the government and tech companies will have going forward.

 

[aaronvan]

.

WHat's a real Cuban?

Mark Cuban is keeping it real.

 

[2457282]

.


WHat's a real Cuban?

I thought that was clear in my post - ME!

 

[Tycho24]

You seem to be implying that this system with weakened security would be installed on every iPhone (or hard drive or file system) on the planet. That is NOT the case, but if it was I would agree with you wholeheartedly.

You may understand the tech, but you do not understand the law. The government is asking for a special OS to be developed and installed on specific phones, each of which have gone through the regular 4th amendment legal hurdles and protections of obtaining a warrant for inspection by a neutral judge. And that special OS would be maintained as proprietary by Apple, not the government. Nobody is asking Apple to weaken security on ALL iPhones. Apple can and should continue to develop strengthened encryption algorithms and protocols, but they also have to be able to comply with legal search warrants in order to assist the government in solving crimes. Developing a specialized OS that Apple maintains under their control and use only when the government has obtained a legal search warrant signed by a judge seems like a reasonable compromise.

How do you install this version of iOS on the iPhone without credentials and without wiping it, so the data you're after is still intact??

 

[redscull]

This is a marketing opportunity that only comes once in awhile.
Eddy should send a few billion to terrorists for making it happen.
Apple will be able to milk this for years of free publicity.
Apple Akbar.

Terrorists win when privacy and freedom is degraded or lost. The creation of Homeland Security after 911 was BIG WIN for terrorists, not Americans or their safety. You support terrorists when you advocate for any law which decreases privacy and data security, like what the FBI is asking.

Obviously you know this, and it's obvious which side you're actually on, trying to undermine privacy with deceptive and misleading messaging.
[doublepost=1457629961][/doublepost]

You seem to be implying that this system with weakened security would be installed on every iPhone (or hard drive or file system) on the planet. That is NOT the case, but if it was I would agree with you wholeheartedly.

You may understand the tech, but you do not understand the law. The government is asking for a special OS to be developed and installed on specific phones, each of which have gone through the regular 4th amendment legal hurdles and protections of obtaining a warrant for inspection by a neutral judge. And that special OS would be maintained as proprietary by Apple, not the government. Nobody is asking Apple to weaken security on ALL iPhones. Apple can and should continue to develop strengthened encryption algorithms and protocols, but they also have to be able to comply with legal search warrants in order to assist the government in solving crimes. Developing a specialized OS that Apple maintains under their control and use only when the government has obtained a legal search warrant signed by a judge seems like a reasonable compromise.

You don't seem to understand how legal precedent works or have ever heard of Stingray. What you're talking about sounds nice but simply isn't reality. You also don't seem to understand the full technical burden of what the FBI is asking, or how in fact even the creation of the special OS a truly does put all phones at risk. Even if Apple doesn't put the back door on every iphone, showing that FBI where the backdoor goes helps them to do it themselves next time.

 

[Moorepheus]

I don't believe this would be an OS anyway. From what I read and I could be totally wrong, they are asking APPLE to make a HACK that unlocks the phone.

 

[doelcm82]

No, I have not forgotten the human element in this. I think you are overstating the case and ignoring practical details.

Apple is legendary at keeping secrets. We all know this. Everyone in the computer business knows this. If any company knows how to keep secrets, it's Apple. But even if the specialized system DID get out by whatever means, nefarious or accidental, Apple could quickly issue a patch to all users and fix it via a system update within hours. So I'm not worried about that. What DOES worry me, and what should worry you too, is terrorists, human traffickers, drug dealers, kidnappers, pedophiles, rapists, etc., planning their activities on devices that our security and law enforcement personnel cannot track or access.

The other option, of course, is to have the boys at the FBI or NSA crack the security without Apple's assistance or knowledge, and use that system to exercise their warrants, their investigations, and who knows what else. I suggest that this is not a good option. I would never trust the government with the key. I would much rather Apple be a good citizen and cooperate with the FBI so they at least have some control over what is made and how it is handled.

And your dynamite example is ridiculous. Dynamite is not "bad". It has many useful purposes, including mining, construction, and demolition.

This isn't just about the FBI. It's also about the Ministry of Intelligence in whatever country scares you the most.

Apple can try and keep this software in house and controlled by them, but what happens when the get a subpoena from some government agency...a perfectly valid and legal subpoena...that requires them to hand that software over to that agency? Are you really saying that Apple should be able to ignore such a subpoena? Are do you trust the FBI and the MOI to refrain from issuing such a subpoena?

Currently the software to open this one iPhone doesn't exist, and Apple is being compelled to develop it. They're fighting for their right not to develop dangerous software.

Simultaneously, they are updating their products to make the data they carry even more secure, even from this kind of software backdoor (a new OS that's loaded without the user granting permission by entering the passcode). What's your position on Apple making an iOS that not even Apple can hack into?

 

[JM]

No, I have not forgotten the human element in this. I think you are overstating the case and ignoring practical details.

Apple is legendary at keeping secrets. We all know this. Everyone in the computer business knows this. If any company knows how to keep secrets, it's Apple. But even if the specialized system DID get out by whatever means, nefarious or accidental, Apple could quickly issue a patch to all users and fix it via a system update within hours. So I'm not worried about that. What DOES worry me, and what should worry you too, is terrorists, human traffickers, drug dealers, kidnappers, pedophiles, rapists, etc., planning their activities on devices that our security and law enforcement personnel cannot track or access.

The other option, of course, is to have the boys at the FBI or NSA crack the security without Apple's assistance or knowledge, and use that system to exercise their warrants, their investigations, and who knows what else. I suggest that this is not a good option. I would never trust the government with the key. I would much rather Apple be a good citizen and cooperate with the FBI so they at least have some control over what is made and how it is handled.

And your dynamite example is ridiculous. Dynamite is not "bad". It has many useful purposes, including mining, construction, and demolition.

So. You admit that something can be used for both good and bad purposes, and completely undermined your argument that Apple should create iOS code and it will only be used for the good purpose of thwarting terrorists.

Your turn.

(Bonus point: Apple does a great job at keeping iPhone design under wraps, don't they? Or you can go ahead and argue that they plan to leak photos of parts...)

 

[kdarling]

Apple can try and keep this software in house and controlled by them, but what happens when the get a subpoena from some government agency...a perfectly valid and legal subpoena...that requires them to hand that software over to that agency? Are you really saying that Apple should be able to ignore such a subpoena? Are do you trust the FBI and the MOI to refrain from issuing such a subpoena?

The thing is, Apple has NOT been asked to hand over generalized code, nor served a subpoena to do so.

If/when such a thing does happen, THEN they can and should speak up. In the meantime, it's just a strawman argument, and anyone on a internet forum doing a similar logic leap on any other topic would be ripped to shreds.

Btw, interestingly, Apple's court accounting of their time and cost involved, includes the cost of destroying the source code each time it's created. (So it wouldn't be stored anywhere except in the programmer's heads.)

 

[naeS1Sean]

Me too, Eddy.

 

[tgara]

You don't seem to understand how legal precedent works or have ever heard of Stingray. What you're talking about sounds nice but simply isn't reality. You also don't seem to understand the full technical burden of what the FBI is asking, or how in fact even the creation of the special OS a truly does put all phones at risk. Even if Apple doesn't put the back door on every iphone, showing that FBI where the backdoor goes helps them to do it themselves next time.

I assure you, I have forgotten more about the law and legal precedents than you will ever know. Apple has said publically that they can do what the FBI is asking them to do (a handful of engineers and 3-4 weeks work I believe), so Apple's stand on this has changed from "We can't do it" to "We won't do it". That's simply untenable. Banks and phone companies have to make their equipment in a way that allows them to comply with valid search warrants. Why is Apple special here? Apple is trying to exempt itself unilaterally from this basic legal requirement.

As for the special OS, the government has said all along that it doesn't want copies of that OS. It just wants the data and doesn't care or want to know how Apple got it. Apple can keep it or destroy the OS, it's Apple's choice. It's simply a grand exaggeration to say that the security of every iPhone on the planet will be destroyed if Apple uses special software to access a terrorist's phone to comply with a legal government request. I think you might want to see someone about your paranoia.

 

[thewap]

Surveillance state under the most *progressive* president ? Impossible ! Thats tin foil hat stuff right there.

 

[Ghost31]

.


WHat's a real Cuban?

People who smoke Cubans and listen to salsa music

 

[tgara]

This isn't just about the FBI. It's also about the Ministry of Intelligence in whatever country scares you the most.

Apple can try and keep this software in house and controlled by them, but what happens when the get a subpoena from some government agency...a perfectly valid and legal subpoena...that requires them to hand that software over to that agency? Are you really saying that Apple should be able to ignore such a subpoena? Are do you trust the FBI and the MOI to refrain from issuing such a subpoena?

Currently the software to open this one iPhone doesn't exist, and Apple is being compelled to develop it. They're fighting for their right not to develop dangerous software.

Simultaneously, they are updating their products to make the data they carry even more secure, even from this kind of software backdoor (a new OS that's loaded without the user granting permission by entering the passcode). What's your position on Apple making an iOS that not even Apple can hack into?

You seem to know nothing about how our law works. Your assertion ignores the fact that local law enforcement in the U.S. seeks access to information only through a lawful judicial process. If a foreign nation’s government, repressive or not, wanted information from an American company, it also would have to go through lawful processes in the U.S., either pursuant to a Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty (MLAT) or a letter rogatory. If the foreign government used the MLAT process, the executive branch of the federal government (DOJ) would decide whether, in its discretion, the foreign government’s request was proper. If the foreign government used a letter rogatory, a federal court would make that determination. In either case, the request could be refused if the information was sought for use in a proceeding that would violate human rights.

As for my position on unhackable iOS, I think that will be a problem for Apple in the future. As I mentioned above, other firms in other industries must comply with laws that require that they make their equipment in such a way that they can comply with lawful court orders and other lawful legal requests. If Apple does this, my guess is that Congress will simply extend the existing CALEA statutes, which apply to telephone carriers, to computer device makers, and thus make such an unhackable iOS illegal.
[doublepost=1457635933][/doublepost]

So. You admit that something can be used for both good and bad purposes, and completely undermined your argument that Apple should create iOS code and it will only be used for the good purpose of thwarting terrorists.

Your turn.

(Bonus point: Apple does a great job at keeping iPhone design under wraps, don't they? Or you can go ahead and argue that they plan to leak photos of parts...)

I think you need to see someone about your paranoia. Really.

 

[JM]

You seem to know nothing about how our law works. Your assertion ignores the fact that local law enforcement in the U.S. seeks access to information only through a lawful judicial process. If a foreign nation’s government, repressive or not, wanted information from an American company, it also would have to go through lawful processes in the U.S., either pursuant to a Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty (MLAT) or a letter rogatory. If the foreign government used the MLAT process, the executive branch of the federal government (DOJ) would decide whether, in its discretion, the foreign government’s request was proper. If the foreign government used a letter rogatory, a federal court would make that determination. In either case, the request could be refused if the information was sought for use in a proceeding that would violate human rights.

As for my position on unhackable iOS, I think that will be a problem for Apple in the future. As I mentioned above, other firms in other industries must comply with laws that require that they make their equipment in such a way that they can comply with lawful court orders and other lawful legal requests. If Apple does this, my guess is that Congress will simply extend the existing CALEA statutes, which apply to telephone carriers, to computer device makers, and thus make such an unhackable iOS illegal.
[doublepost=1457635933][/doublepost]

I think you need to see someone about your paranoia. Really.

Reverting to personal attacks because you have no intelligent retort to my assertions = I win.

 

[doelcm82]

If/when such a thing does happen, THEN they can and should speak up. In the meantime, it's just a strawman argument, and anyone on a internet forum doing a similar logic leap on any other topic would be ripped to shreds.

So your position is that if Apple considers the request from the government to be illegal, then Apple should speak up.

My position is that Apple considers the current request from the government to be illegal.

I agree with Apple on the second point, and with you on the first. It's an illegal request, and Apple should legally resist.
[doublepost=1457639741][/doublepost]

People who smoke Cubans and listen to salsa music

I'd like a virgin Cuba Libre, please. No fruit.

 

[tgara]

So. You admit that something can be used for both good and bad purposes, and completely undermined your argument that Apple should create iOS code and it will only be used for the good purpose of thwarting terrorists.

Your turn.

Did you watch the recent testimony at the House Judiciary Committee hearing? Right now, Apple's current iOS9 system is being used by a whole slew of bad guys, including terrorists, rapists, drug dealers, human traffickers, kidnappers and pedophiles. The bad guys are even boasting about it. Law enforcement has their iPhones but cannot access them due to encryption.

What would you do if a kidnapper took your mother or father or sister or spouse and had info on their phone as to their whereabouts? What would you do if a terrorist has the abort codes to an armed nuclear bomb on his encrypted iPhone?

Your belief that uncrackable device security will only be used by law abiding citizens to secure their privacy is pure fantasy. There has to be a balance between user privacy and making the devices accessible so that our security and law enforcement agencies can do their jobs.

Reverting to personal attacks because you have no intelligent retort to my assertions = I win.

Your turn. And I still say you need professional help with your paranoia. Edward Snowden must have really scared you, eh?

 

[old-wiz]

An interesting point comes to my mind -- there are a number of extremely good encryption programs available overseas by public license. So a terrorist could simply encrypt their data and send it already encrypted, so breaking into the phone would do the FBI no good. Besides, the FBI and other agencies are not very good at keeping the secrets they already have - there have been quite a few leaks. And by the time the authorities get their hands on the phone and decrypt it, the information might be useless anyway, especially if it is time sensitive.

What would you do if a kidnapper took your mother or father or sister or spouse and had info on their phone as to their whereabouts? What would you do if a terrorist has the abort codes to an armed nuclear bomb on his encrypted iPhone?

By the time the FBI or other agency broke the phone, the bomb would have already gone off.

 

[JM]

Did you watch the recent testimony at the House Judiciary Committee hearing? Right now, Apple's current iOS9 system is being used by a whole slew of bad guys, including terrorists, rapists, drug dealers, human traffickers, kidnappers and pedophiles. The bad guys are even boasting about it. Law enforcement has their iPhones but cannot access them due to encryption.

What would you do if a kidnapper took your mother or father or sister or spouse and had info on their phone as to their whereabouts? What would you do if a terrorist has the abort codes to an armed nuclear bomb on his encrypted iPhone?

Your belief that uncrackable device security will only be used by law abiding citizens to secure their privacy is pure fantasy. There has to be a balance between user privacy and making the devices accessible so that our security and law enforcement agencies can do their jobs.



Your turn. And I still say you need professional help with your paranoia. Edward Snowden must have really scared you, eh?

FUD is not a logical argument, nor is claiming that I am scared because I just proved your argument is illogical.

You're ignoring the facts of the other side of the argument and only latching onto points that support your point of view. I guess I'll just wait for a more intelligent reason why Apple should decrypt/write code/unlock the 5c, because you sir/madam have none.

Good day