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Education Discounts at APPLE.COM ??
- Thread starter thekid055
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Duff-Man says....maybe it is nothing you will go to jail for, but it is still wrong. when you enter the online education store you must agree to its terms and conditions:shecky said:
....it is the much the same as the license agreement you agree to when installing software. If you falsify student id #'s to enter the store, you are violating that agreement. Sorry bud, but you are very wrong to think it is okay to do this.....oh yeah!
from the Apple edu store online:
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ELIGIBILITY
Those eligible to purchase from the Apple Store for Education Individuals include faculty, staff and students as follows:
K12 - Any employee of a public or private K-12 institution in the United States is eligible. In addition, school board members who are currently serving as elected or appointed members are eligible. PTA or PTO executives currently serving as elected or appointed officers are eligible.
Higher Education - Faculty and staff of Higher Education institutions; and students attending, or accepted into a Higher Education institution are eligible to purchase. Purchases from the Apple Store for Education Individuals are not for institutional purchase or resale.
AUDIT RIGHTS
Apple routinely audits the purchases of customers at the Apple Store for Education to insure that only eligible purchases have ordered and that all purchase conditions have been observed. Should an audit disclose after delivery (or should Apple otherwise discover) that you were not an eligible purchaser at the time you placed your order or that you have not observed all of the conditions applicable to your purchase, you authorize Apple:
If you placed your order by credit card, to charge to your credit card the difference between the amount you paid for the delivered goods and the price that Apple charged the general public for the same goods at the Apple Store, in effect on the date that you placed your order; and
If you paid by a means other than credit card, to (a) invoice you for the difference between the amount that you paid for the delivered goods and the price that Apple charged the general public for the same goods at the Apple Store, payable in fifteen days from the date of the invoice, and (b), should you fail to pay the invoice when due, institute legal action against you in a court of competent jurisdiction, with the prevailing party entitled to attorneys' fees.
Should Apple not offer to the general public the specific products that you purchased at the Apple Store for education, your credit card will be charged or you will be invoiced the difference between the amount you paid for the delivered goods and the price that Apple charged the general public for the closest equivalent goods at the Apple Store, in effect on the date that you placed your order.
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the only part of this even approaching anything having to do with the law is the part in italics, however, that is a standard tactic in ANY buyer/seller relationship where the buyer did not pay the correct price; you pay to little, you owe the rest, you pay or get sued. so it is not specific to using the edu discount wrongly, its is specific only to paying the difference in due time, and if you dont pay, then you are subject to legal action. i still contend that that is a spereate issue from using the edu discount - nowhere does it say "if you get caught using the student discount falsely, we will prosecute you to the fullest extent of the law." it just says "if we catch you, you have to pay the difference, and if you dont, then we will sue you for the rest.'
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ELIGIBILITY
Those eligible to purchase from the Apple Store for Education Individuals include faculty, staff and students as follows:
K12 - Any employee of a public or private K-12 institution in the United States is eligible. In addition, school board members who are currently serving as elected or appointed members are eligible. PTA or PTO executives currently serving as elected or appointed officers are eligible.
Higher Education - Faculty and staff of Higher Education institutions; and students attending, or accepted into a Higher Education institution are eligible to purchase. Purchases from the Apple Store for Education Individuals are not for institutional purchase or resale.
AUDIT RIGHTS
Apple routinely audits the purchases of customers at the Apple Store for Education to insure that only eligible purchases have ordered and that all purchase conditions have been observed. Should an audit disclose after delivery (or should Apple otherwise discover) that you were not an eligible purchaser at the time you placed your order or that you have not observed all of the conditions applicable to your purchase, you authorize Apple:
If you placed your order by credit card, to charge to your credit card the difference between the amount you paid for the delivered goods and the price that Apple charged the general public for the same goods at the Apple Store, in effect on the date that you placed your order; and
If you paid by a means other than credit card, to (a) invoice you for the difference between the amount that you paid for the delivered goods and the price that Apple charged the general public for the same goods at the Apple Store, payable in fifteen days from the date of the invoice, and (b), should you fail to pay the invoice when due, institute legal action against you in a court of competent jurisdiction, with the prevailing party entitled to attorneys' fees.
Should Apple not offer to the general public the specific products that you purchased at the Apple Store for education, your credit card will be charged or you will be invoiced the difference between the amount you paid for the delivered goods and the price that Apple charged the general public for the closest equivalent goods at the Apple Store, in effect on the date that you placed your order.
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the only part of this even approaching anything having to do with the law is the part in italics, however, that is a standard tactic in ANY buyer/seller relationship where the buyer did not pay the correct price; you pay to little, you owe the rest, you pay or get sued. so it is not specific to using the edu discount wrongly, its is specific only to paying the difference in due time, and if you dont pay, then you are subject to legal action. i still contend that that is a spereate issue from using the edu discount - nowhere does it say "if you get caught using the student discount falsely, we will prosecute you to the fullest extent of the law." it just says "if we catch you, you have to pay the difference, and if you dont, then we will sue you for the rest.'
And Duff, i COMPLETELY agree with the notion that falsifying a student ID is wrong and illegal, and in that respect you should absolutely be proesecuted. i am saying take advantage of the discount by using Apple's own inadiquacies in monitoring the discount, legally. And you still may be caught by an audit, in whihc case you pay the difference you would have paid anyway, and go on with your day.
and i think whats wrong is paying more than you legally have to. so i guess i differ from the rest of you there, but i feel just fine about it.
and i think whats wrong is paying more than you legally have to. so i guess i differ from the rest of you there, but i feel just fine about it.
homeschooling
Here's one for you...
My wife is going to homeschool our 4 year old son (I'm contributing the math and spelling parts) and, although she has not officially started homeschooling him and therefore cannot claim to meet our school district's requirements as an acredited homeschool, she has begun to do quite a bit of research into the various curriculum's available. As such, we were thinking that a laptop and wireless n/w would be beneficial, both in the preparation for, and during homeschooling.
Should she qualify for the edu discount?
Here's one for you...
My wife is going to homeschool our 4 year old son (I'm contributing the math and spelling parts) and, although she has not officially started homeschooling him and therefore cannot claim to meet our school district's requirements as an acredited homeschool, she has begun to do quite a bit of research into the various curriculum's available. As such, we were thinking that a laptop and wireless n/w would be beneficial, both in the preparation for, and during homeschooling.
Should she qualify for the edu discount?
http://www.apple.com/education/k12/homeschool/
do you qualify now? no. Should you qualify now? no. Should you still get the machine cheaper if they let you? yes.
do you qualify now? no. Should you qualify now? no. Should you still get the machine cheaper if they let you? yes.
shecky said:
hey, theres no need to get arsey mate i was just trying to point out to you (whether you care or not) that what you are doing could have consequences for you and others.
If you want to continue to get the best price through cheating (or whatever you want to call it) then ok, but I wouldn't go advertising it in a forum.
stevehaslip said:
it can have only 2 consequences, mate, i pay the difference, and/or Apple starts paying attention to people using the discount and enforcing its own rules, mate.
powermac666 said:
(From Dictionary.com)
home·school or home-school
v. home·schooled, home·school·ing, home·schools
v. tr.
To instruct (a pupil, for example) in an educational program outside of established schools, especially in the home.
Have you instructed or educated your son in anyway, while remaining at home? Than congratulations, you are home schooling him. Another definition would be "self taught" which he probably won't fall under until later in life. But hey, has your kid taught himself or learned anything on his own yet? Perhaps a foreign language, such as English, that he may not have known when he was born? He falls under EDU, so go for that discount. besides, he is "enrolled" even if it isn't fall, same way college students get it before the first day of class. I'd say there isn't anything unethical about it.
Tyler - who used the home schooling EDU discount when he was 18 to purchase his very own Apple computer.
ps
If you have any questions or concerns about home schooling, please, send me a PM.
i do believe advising illegal things (aka: not agreeing to a terms of use for apple's edu discount and still using it, telling people to give out false info (a federal offence)) is against forum rules.
I'm gonna have to agree with Shecky on this one...it's there, it should be Apple's responsibility to tighten up on this. If you're willing to take the risk and suffer the consequences, then why not go for it!?!?! I don't think Apple will completely shut down the education store...they'd probably just be more strict in verifying people. But that is an Apple issue, not a customer one.
I personally feel it is ethically wrong to use the EDU discount if you're not entitled to it. However, I've been entitled to it ever since I've been buying, so perhaps I'm not in the best place to speak for those who aren't. Maybe you (and by 'you' I mean 'one') have to weigh up the risks and take a calculated gamble. Like picking up a tenner off the street and not handing it in. But as I said, you do so at your own risk - technically it is fraud, but it's not a fraud that Apple would go to any pains to enforce any more than cancelling your order or making you pay the difference, as their terms state. 
OziMac said:technically it is fraud, but it's not a fraud that Apple would go to any pains to enforce any more than cancelling your order or making you pay the difference, as their terms state.
my next argument was about to be that ordering online under the edu discount is not fraud since Apple is not asking you to provide ID, therefore you are not being fraudulent.
however...
after rereading the stuff from the apple edu store, i think that technically, you are right - since you agree to apple's terms when making a purchase, then even if they do not ask you for ID you are technically making an agreement based on a falsehood.
so. with that in mind, as i said in my 2nd or 3rd post, i guess it IS illegal, and i recind my argument.
however...
since i am willing to take the risk, since the only thing they are really going to do is make you pay the difference, i personally am still going to take the risk, tho i strongly suggest no one else do so. And if you don't agree with me well, you are on solid legal ground not to.
Taking risks huh? Well, you better stick w/ transporting weed between Mexico and the US then, 'cause getting caught in most Asia countries means your head.
Duff-Man says...I know this issue is somewhat settled, and kudos to Shecky for keeping an open mind and thoughtfully reading through Apple's terms again. I would like to make a final comment though - just because that "door is open" does not mean it should be taken advantage of. For example - if you buy a copy of OS X you are entitled to install on a single computer, yet there is nothing in place to stop you from installing it a million times...so does Apple's lack of having some kind of installation s/n or activation scheme then make it okay to install a million times just because they are not preventing you from doing so? Are you saying that you'd rather have them instigate an XP-style activation code, or have them make it more difficult for those entitled to edu prices buy their computers? Really, I think we all know the difference between right and wrong, whether there are any legal hairs to split or not. And I would like to think that the majority of us here will be honest buyers, even though Apple does p*ss us off sometimesNatalia81 said:
....oh yeah!as a high school student, i bought my powerbook a few weeks ago using an education discount, not knowing that this was against any existing rule. where exactly does it say that the discount is not intendended for high school students?
Just to add to this...if someone is going to pull this off in the future, you should know that because you didn't know the terms and the Apple store clerk was not knowledgeable in this matter doesn't mean you will not be held responsible. I am sure someone was thinking of doing this.
Shecky, I think the point it that those of us against using the discount don't care if it is legal or not, it's about integrity.
"Laws" are made up by people like George Bush and John Kerry and are to be followed to avoid the consequences. Integrity is how you live, not how you are forced to live.
Do what you will, it's about your integrity. And trust me, I do things that go against my idea of perfect integrity too.
And yeah I know, HUGE soapbox here, but a fun string eh??
"Laws" are made up by people like George Bush and John Kerry and are to be followed to avoid the consequences. Integrity is how you live, not how you are forced to live.
Do what you will, it's about your integrity. And trust me, I do things that go against my idea of perfect integrity too.
And yeah I know, HUGE soapbox here, but a fun string eh??
my integrity is just fine and dandy, thank you very much. on top of which i feel great for having gotten a better deal.
I wish the education discount would allow more than one Pbook/ibook per year. Of course it makes perfect sense, why would you need both? But I had hoped to use the ibook for a semester and then give it to my wife to use when I get my kick-arse Pbook in January/February.
I'm just getting the stock (combo drive) 12" ibook, which only retails $100 over the edu discount. I would be more than willing to pay retail for it, but I want to take advantage of the Cram and Jam offer, and can't afford the Pbook until the ol' tax return come next year.
Maybe I'll give apple a call and see if they would make an exception.
Probably not very likely though, eh?
Of course it makes perfect sense, why would you need both? But I had hoped to use the ibook for a semester and then give it to my wife to use when I get my kick-arse Pbook in January/February.I'm just getting the stock (combo drive) 12" ibook, which only retails $100 over the edu discount. I would be more than willing to pay retail for it, but I want to take advantage of the Cram and Jam offer, and can't afford the Pbook until the ol' tax return come next year.
Maybe I'll give apple a call and see if they would make an exception.
Probably not very likely though, eh?
I hate people who act like you. Our society is based on people who do what's right because it's right and because if everyone does the right thing most of the time then we all get to live in a better world.shecky said:
If the majority of people would do the obviously wrong thing if the risk of being punished was small, then the world would be a much worse place.
In this little case it's easy to show. If a majority of Apple customers would act like you, then Apple would just shut down the edu-discount system. Everyone would have to pay the full price, Apple would lose many edu-customers which in the long run would cause Apple's overall marketshare to drop even lower, and we'll possibly see the end of the Mac.
That's why I hate people who act and think like you.