Samsung, but close enough.
Malware is another issue, everyone has that problem, but yep, they don't have on device scanning to turn me in.
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EFF Pressures Apple to Completely Abandon Controversial Child Safety Features
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Agree completely. As you alluded, they really had no choice but to make more of an effort here given the massive gap between what they were "catching" (265 reported CSAM incidents in 2020) vs the other big tech companies (Facebook reported over 20m in 2020).
I don't agree here, at least as a response to my previous comment. For me, the issue is not trust at all. Maybe I'm naive, but I trust Apple wanted to implement this for all the right reasons. I trust that they'll reject governments, etc., as they say they will (to the best of their ability anyway). I believe this is the most private way of catching CSAM on iCloud.
I trust the police officers that keep an eye on my neighborhood, but I wouldn't give them free 24/7 access to my security cameras. If they asked (which they do sometimes), I would gladly offer up the footage they needed. But they can't have free access all the time without my permission. It's a fine (and somewhat fuzzy?) line, but an important one to those who are bothered by this local scanning.
While those might play a part, the primary reason Apple was trying to implement it locally was privacy - they said as much in their numerous communications on the subject as well. Those that truly understand how this process works (even those against it) cannot argue with the fact that it's the best way to accomplish this while Apple is still able to say, "Hey we still can't see your stuff!" And if (stealing what some have speculated - and is still pure speculation) the endgame is E2EE on iCloud, then again, it is indeed the most privacy conscious way of catching CSAM on iCloud. But to many, it's stepping over that fine line I mentioned in the previous point above.
Im against an attitude that apple tried it as a great pr stunt to make more money and it failed badly. Apple isnt an authority, they are phonemakers, so let them build phones, not playing cops, nanny, mother, daddy or so… i dont either want my postman check my mails/packages …
Hey man you’ve exexcised your right to purchase what you‘re comfortable with. That‘s one of the most powerful things you can do as an individual. I commend your decision and I genuinely hope its for the better. I’ve used both platforms and neither is perfect. They are both similar enough that the change is like American English to UK English. There will be trade offs but hopefully none that are regrettable for you.
The benefit of your switch will allow you to observe what happens next with Apple and not be part of it. A safe place to be when you’re not comfortable with its implementation.
Nothing wrong with being cautious over features like this and using 1984 as a analogy to convey your concerns. You could be right or wrong. However I don’t think the decision to be cautious is wrong under any circumstances.
Not to jab at you or anyone else but I personally hope that you are wrong and its exactly what Apple says it is and they actively work to make sure its not abused by themselves or an external entity. Child abuse it a really big problem around the world and it sucks that implementing it in such a way brings with it a lot of controversy. I wish I could think of a better way to do it other than what Apple is doing and I don’t think doing nothing at all like they have been is enough. My opinion but if it does turn bad I can always jump ship and buy a different companies phone as well.
That's why "for the children" is used. Because it is diabolically hard to resist as an argument.
There really isn’t anything to debate. You’ve made your view very clear and explained your understanding and stance on each topic. ’Trust’ may not be the right word and maybe ‘comfortable’ would be a better descriptor.
The 24/7 police analogy was good and made a good point. Obviously the police don’t own the software on your camera and manage the service like Apple and iOS/iCloud Photos does but I got the point and there’s not a lot of reason to debate the differences cause I feel comfortable that you know them as well.
I guess I’m comfortable with Apple’s system because, I’m not their target, I know they control the software and services on my Apple devices whether I love or hate that but I don’t get to tell them how to do that and only provide feedback, and historically I haven’t seen Apple abuse systems like this in the past when it concerns privacy.
So yeah I guess I’m comfortable with it for those reasons and others. That may change but I’m comfortable letting it play out. Totally understand your view though and would buy you a drink if I could.
When something is as universally agreed to be evil like child porn I’m okay with these crazy systems to squash it and at the same time try not to invade privacy. If there was another universally agreed upon evil that needed a system like this I‘d probably be for it as well if it works.
Honestly, in spite of my comments, I'm actually closer to your perspective on this than it sounds. I'm not their target, and besides my hesitancies about the on device CSAM scanning, they handle literally every other aspect of privacy in a way that I appreciate. And as you said, generally speaking, they have a solid history in handling privacy.
Plus, as I venture back into the Android world again (Samsung in my case, due to their Secure Folder), I'm finding that I still prefer some essential things about iOS. My entire "social" world (family, friends, work) all use iOS - so being the odd man out does hinder things at times with regard to communication (which is the whole point of these devices...).
Since Apple has backed off of this for now, I likely won't be going anywhere. But it has also caused me to rethink being so technologically invested in a single platform, as one single change in policy can have a huge affect on our technological life.
And ladies and gentlemen, here we go:
9to5mac.com
libredd.it
It really exploded from "Do you love Apple?" to "Do you love your Government?".
Wish you luck with "Saving the children".
Scan encrypted messages for CSAM, says British government - 9to5Mac
The British government says that it wants the ability to scan encrypted messages for CSAM, even where end-to-end encryption is used ...
9to5mac.com
UK government backs Apple, and wants to scan encrypted messages for CSAM - r/apple
View on Libreddit, an alternative private front-end to Reddit.
It really exploded from "Do you love Apple?" to "Do you love your Government?".
Wish you luck with "Saving the children".
And ladies and gentlemen, here we go:
Scan encrypted messages for CSAM, says British government - 9to5Mac
The British government says that it wants the ability to scan encrypted messages for CSAM, even where end-to-end encryption is used ...
UK government backs Apple, and wants to scan encrypted messages for CSAM - r/apple
View on Libreddit, an alternative private front-end to Reddit.
It really exploded from "Do you love Apple?" to "Do you love your Government?".
Wish you luck with "Saving the children".
Crap.
This was sooner than expected.
Just saw in my Redditt feed.
I honestly don’t see how you could possibly escape this. This theme would apply to any brand or thing. Buy a house in an area and then the city ordnance could mess up your whole lively-hood. Plane gets canceled and the itinerary falls apart and your out expenses you can’t escape. Tax law change and your whole portfolio needs to be adjusted and you lose while many others gain.
Technology has its ebbs and flows and while I’m standing on the beach relatively unaffected by all of this others are struggling to stay on top of the wave while others have bailed and are looking to get on the next wave.
That's a really good point. Especially in this day and age when governments around the world are looking to pass even more broad-brushed encryption scanning for CSAM material, terrorism, etc. A year from now this might all be a non-issue and simply a new norm among all technology companies, and we'll look back and appreciate how Apple at least hesitated and gave it some additional thought.
Of all of the companies out there, Apple has, IMO, earned the right to have a little more trust from me that they'll handle this "wave" as good or better than any other company out there until it flows back in the other direction. That thought process will be a lot less time consuming as well... I might come join you on that beach, then you can buy that drink as well. 🍺
Well. That's all folks. It is unbeliavable. ****_ing unbeliavable.That's a really good point. Especially in this day and age when governments around the world are looking to pass even more broad-brushed encryption scanning for CSAM material, terrorism, etc. A year from now this might all be a non-issue and simply a new norm among all technology companies, and we'll look back and appreciate how Apple at least hesitated and gave it some additional thought.
Of all of the companies out there, Apple has, IMO, earned the right to have a little more trust from me that they'll handle this "wave" as good or better than any other company out there until it flows back in the other direction. That thought process will be a lot less time consuming as well... I might come join you on that beach, then you can buy that drink as well. 🍺
Please... I'm not throwing anything away here. I've invested hours upon hours in discussions on these boards the past few weeks, as have others, due to the importance of this issue. I still believe what I've stated numerous times before (and while generally against it, my perspective has been a bit more balanced than some others).
But at this point Apple has put it on hold. Maybe they'll go forward with it. Maybe they'll scrap it altogether. If they move forward with it with few to no changes, then all of these discussions will likely, and appropriately, continue. But if they significantly change it or scrap it altogether, we can look at this time as an affirmation that they do give a crap what their users think.
Hopefully I'm wrong about my comment about a year from now as well. But if I'm right, and things have gotten that bad, the ecosystem I'm using won't matter, and Apple will likely be the "lesser of [multiple] evils" if they're all pushing this direction. I have no reason to think otherwise... yet.
That’s a very naive view of technology. They have being protecting peoples rights far more than other tech companies who have been doing the opposite. They clearly feel they have a responsibility to either put their hands over their eyes (your view) or protect the rights & safety of children and highlight potential paedofiles (Not your view). I stand on the latter because I don’t like paedofilia. We all have our stance for or against it I guess 🤷🏻♂️
Actually your view of technology is very naive. For your general reaction is defined by believe and not factual or technical data. Please, inform your self about Pegasus/NSO iPhone security breach and lack of encryption in iOS.
The idea of saving the children is well defined historically, you can check Russia implementation.
And another thing, hosting CSAM material is illegal in any form - hashed or not. Now all Apple users will host a databases with illegal material. If this is not bothering you, ok. But your "stance" is well designed marketing policy from Apple with clear intent of normalizing on device processing by third party.
I am sure that you don't like to read, because your reaction is omitting the information that I provided about UK government wishes Apple to expand this surveillance model.
Talking about facts. It’s not illegal to have the hash. That’s ridiculous! It’s illegal to have the actual images. Maybe check laws on this, if you’re up to it.
As far as your comment about "I’m sure you don’t like to read". 1) that’s just trolling. 2) it’s irrelevant.
Interesting legal opinion on CSS and potential impact.
www.lawfareblog.com
The Law and Policy of Client-Side Scanning
The idea—which aims to develop systems to scan photographs and messages before they are sent or received by users—is attractive, but it has far too many technical,
Having possession of may not be however MS has gone to great lengths to keep Photo DNA hash comparisons “non-public”.
On device will at some point take that away.
That’s super interesting. Important notes (for me) are that there have been ZERO false positives to date, that CSAM is preferred by law enforcement and that the choices are basically OS based or through apps like whatsapp.Interesting legal opinion on CSS and potential impact.
The Law and Policy of Client-Side Scanning
The idea—which aims to develop systems to scan photographs and messages before they are sent or received by users—is attractive, but it has far too many technical,
The biggest question for me is the mechanism on how law enforcement would be advised, not whether Apple is aware or not.
You said it was illegal. Photo DNA Hash should absolutely be non-public. The next step would be for those with these images to be able to alter or hide the hash. In the same way they use drugs to hide steroid use in sport. It’s a constantly moving and evolving problem.
Waiting for comments from the surveillance apologists that concerns about the 'slippery slope' are misplaced and alarmist. 🦗🦗🦗🦗🦗🦗🦗And ladies and gentlemen, here we go:
Scan encrypted messages for CSAM, says British government - 9to5Mac
The British government says that it wants the ability to scan encrypted messages for CSAM, even where end-to-end encryption is used ...
UK government backs Apple, and wants to scan encrypted messages for CSAM - r/apple
View on Libreddit, an alternative private front-end to Reddit.
It really exploded from "Do you love Apple?" to "Do you love your Government?".
Wish you luck with "Saving the children".
The UK has no written Constitution protecting rights and has just withdrawn from the EU, and the government is actively rolling back civil liberties passed by the EU. Right now they'll get their foot in the door with CSAM scanning, then it will be terrorism material (the Taliban providing an excellent pretext), and then simply any image indicative of political opposition (e.g., memes related to Extinction Rebellion). Remember this is the same UK government that tried to pass the 'Snoopers' Charter' (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft_Communications_Data_Bill). Oh, and the UK government will contribute to organisations that are dedicated to tracking CSAM material, so I wonder how Apple is going to find private organisations for CSAM hashes that are not controlled by, or strongly influenced by, government grants..
Apple really went off half-cocked this time. Talk about failing to look more than one step ahead, What a folly...
Excuse me? you really should read the whole story behind Apple and what developers were able to do with your data. You can start from here: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-08-08/is-apple-really-your-privacy-hero