Encrypted Messaging App Signal Stops Working in China

[Razorpit]

It's pretty terrible of them actually and someday they will learn you can't treat people like that, hopefully not too far into the future.
Also you say that but just remember what Snowdon revealed about the US authorities. Sort of like. You can have your 'freedom', but we're going to monitor it.
When we don't like what we see we'll take you to a foreign country and deal with you there.

Now I long for those days. The “freedom” we had back when Snowdon made his revelations public compared to the shutdown cancel culture we have now are night and day.

I know people will argue that those aren’t the same, but where do you think all of these shutdown directives are coming from? Some social dope from Hollywood isn’t making all of this up on their own.

 

[ruka.snow]

It is not only about economy. It is about freedom of speech. About not to have privacy destroying CCTV cameras on every corner of every street. About not banning VPN, encrypted messaging apps. About ability of criticizing government. About possibility of live who we are.

China is communist dictatorship in many ways, even economy - banning billionaires who do not agree with chinese regime.


Trump was person with dictatorial tendencies. Fortunately democracy was stronger in the US.

Communism pushes the economy, it has nothing to do with banning VPN and encrypted messages. A communist country would just ensure if you hosted an app there that the revenue would be shared by the people. Signal being open source makes it a prime candidate for a communist nation as everyone can be involved and benefit equally from it.

 

[H2SO4]

Now I long for those days. The “freedom” we had back when Snowdon made his revelations public compared to the shutdown cancel culture we have now are night and day.

I know people will argue that those aren’t the same, but where do you think all of these shutdown directives are coming from? Some social dope from Hollywood isn’t making all of this up on their own.

A position somewhere between the two is the best we can hope for I think.

 

[ruka.snow]

Does China do anything about satellite Internet, like Starlink? Is it even possible to do something about it?

I suppose China could always twist Musk’s arm and tell him that he has to either block Starlink from working in China or they’ll just shut down the Tesla factory in China...

Although Musk could make the opposite threat... either allow Starlink or he’ll shut down the Tesla factory in China... we’ll see who needs who more...

Now that I’m thinking about it, I wonder about Apple and China. Who needs who there more? I guess Apple needs China from the way Apple doesn’t care about human rights the moment those humans are within China... although maybe that’s just exposing Apple as having never actually cared about them in the first place.

They could ban the possession of the receiving equipment, or more likely broadcasting equipment. Much the same way that it is legal to own a radio receiver in many nations but you are not allowed to run your own radio station without a license. Frankly I see this being imposed in developed nations just as quickly, nations don't like giving up that kinda control and the signals may or may not interfere with other equipment.

 

[ian87w]

Well, shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

 

[H2SO4]

Does China do anything about satellite Internet, like Starlink? Is it even possible to do something about it?

I suppose China could always twist Musk’s arm and tell him that he has to either block Starlink from working in China or they’ll just shut down the Tesla factory in China...

Although Musk could make the opposite threat... either allow Starlink or he’ll shut down the Tesla factory in China... we’ll see who needs who more...

Now that I’m thinking about it, I wonder about Apple and China. Who needs who there more? I guess Apple needs China from the way Apple doesn’t care about human rights the moment those humans are within China... although maybe that’s just exposing Apple as having never actually cared about them in the first place.

Shades of grey. I wouldn't say Apple doesn't care about human rights, I say they don't care about them after a point.

 

[DrV]

I have been doing some (small scale) data-related business in China, and I am actually surprised Signal has been available there until now.

China tries to keep the Great Firewall strong, i.e. the interconnections between China and the rest of the world are well monitored. Moving data across the firewall is both practically and legally challenging. It is not straightforward even to set up a company web page in China. China seems to aim at Internet independence so that it can live without the western Internet, and moving larger amounts of encrypted data is sometimes slightly challenging.

On the other hand, China does not seem to try to block all connections. Last time I was in Shanghai (just before COVID), I was with a group of executives doing business with Chinese companies and government (sometimes it is hard to tell these two apart). Our lovely official guide told us that we might experience some lags or other challenges trying to use western web services. (Sure, I was kicked out of the hotel WiFi for trying to use a corporate VPN over it. That was a new trick but reliably repeatable.) But then she also said that "these restrictions tend to change, and we have learned to live with them, and there are ways to access everything if needed".

I think this statement reflects the general attitude by the government. The restrictions are there to a) remind you to be careful and b) to keep average Joe/Jill from getting lost in the big bad western world out there. They are not trying to make everything waterproof. So, Signal has been under the radar until its usage has grown too much.

(And, no, communism is not necessarily the key word here. It has a lot more to do with the view of individuals' rights vs. rights of the community. Easter cultures may have a slightly different view on that topic.)

 

[ruka.snow]

Shades of grey. I wouldn't say Apple doesn't care about human rights, I say they don't care about them after a point.

From what I can see, Apple very much cares about human rights but also doesn't try to impose their definition of human rights on other nations. You can't go all imperial on other countries and tell them what they are doing is wrong, but you can slowly worm you way into the mind set of the population that they should think about these things and then you achieve a grassroots change.

 

[ruka.snow]

China tries to keep the Great Firewall strong, i.e. the interconnections between China and the rest of the world are well monitored. Moving data across the firewall is both practically and legally challenging. It is not straightforward even to set up a company web page in China. China seems to aim at Internet independence so that it can live without the western Internet, and moving larger amounts of encrypted data is sometimes slightly challenging.

Setting up a website in China is hell. I have to disable Airbrake, NewRelic, and just about any other third party service that could be possibly used to track or collect user data outside of China. On one hand is is rather good for the customer, why should their personal data be on some server in the USA? On the other hand it is a pain in the butt to try find Chinese replacements for alerting me to a server having a hissy fit because someone used a emoji as their username and one of the databases doesn't support that.

 

[koil]

Nice! That means it works!

 

[69Mustang]

That’s a shame.

But on the plus side they block Facebook and Twitter. They should shutdown Weibo, Tiktok, Clubhouse and all other social media mind warping malware too. Then everyone in the world will see the benefit of a mentally healthier natural thinking society and follow.

We lose nothing without social media. Word of mouth, traditional advertizing and product placement has always been the greatest and most reliable promoter of good businesses and we don’t get spyware crap from word of mouth.

Staggeringly naive and lukewarm hot taek. Social media, like any other means of communication, can be used for good or bad purposes. Just like word of mouth can produce King's "I Have A Dream" speech or Hitler's "Reichstag" speech. Traditional advertising brought us Apple's "1984" Super Bowl ad. It also brought us "healthy cigarettes". Product placement has never been a reliable promoter of good business. Product placement has simply been a for-pay mechanism for advertising.

You either don't know history well or you're intentionally ignoring it... or both. Regardless, your quote represents a severely distorted view of the past. You should probably research the teachings of the great American philosopher William Martin Joel. He famously said, "The good old days weren't always good and tomorrow ain't as bad as it seems".

 

[DrV]

Does China do anything about satellite Internet, like Starlink? Is it even possible to do something about it?

It is possible to do something about it. China is not the prime example here, but as long as there have been wireless communication methods, dictators have not allowed citizens to have free access to them.

Even today, Middle East countries are very difficult when it comes to getting radio licences. Frequency bands in free use (ISM) in other countries require licences, and obtaining those licences may be very bureaucratic. In those countries you may need to use one or two generations old WiFi equipment because newer equipment has not made through the bureaucratic jungle.

Or how about North Korea? Freedom House states that unde North Korean law: "listening to unauthorised foreign broadcasts and possessing dissident publications are considered 'crimes against the state' that carry serious punishments, including hard labour, prison sentences, and the death penalty". Owning (or smuggling) a Starlink transceiver does not seem to be good for your health.

 

[macsareveryinteresting]

RIP people who live in China.

 

[m2m2k]

$$$$$$$$$$$$$. It's Simple. Apple is the most valuable company, and being American it would be a political disaster to block their service, especially with how much they support the Chinese economy.

China is blocking Facebook (including WhatsApp) and google - the latter was the most valuable company when China started to block them.

 

[mi7chy]

Just hand over the encryption keys and host the data on China's servers like Apple has done. Problem solved.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...hina-raising-human-rights-fears-idUSKCN1G8060

 

[MacBH928]

Reminds me of Parlor and Gab.com in the USA

 

[ArPe]

Reminds me of Parlor and Gab.com in the USA

How Parler and Gab work:

1 make lots of trolling and hate speech grifting on main stream platforms

2 tell everyone you are being censored for being an MF

3 tell everyone to join you on the Nazi platforms

4 the same Nazi platforms who paid you to play a victim after being an MF

5 then those Nazi platforms collect the data from your followers and sell the data to private intelligence companies

 

[iamPro]

I have been doing some (small scale) data-related business in China, and I am actually surprised Signal has been available there until now.

China tries to keep the Great Firewall strong, i.e. the interconnections between China and the rest of the world are well monitored. Moving data across the firewall is both practically and legally challenging. It is not straightforward even to set up a company web page in China. China seems to aim at Internet independence so that it can live without the western Internet, and moving larger amounts of encrypted data is sometimes slightly challenging.

On the other hand, China does not seem to try to block all connections. Last time I was in Shanghai (just before COVID), I was with a group of executives doing business with Chinese companies and government (sometimes it is hard to tell these two apart). Our lovely official guide told us that we might experience some lags or other challenges trying to use western web services. (Sure, I was kicked out of the hotel WiFi for trying to use a corporate VPN over it. That was a new trick but reliably repeatable.) But then she also said that "these restrictions tend to change, and we have learned to live with them, and there are ways to access everything if needed".

I think this statement reflects the general attitude by the government. The restrictions are there to a) remind you to be careful and b) to keep average Joe/Jill from getting lost in the big bad western world out there. They are not trying to make everything waterproof. So, Signal has been under the radar until its usage has grown too much.

(And, no, communism is not necessarily the key word here. It has a lot more to do with the view of individuals' rights vs. rights of the community. Easter cultures may have a slightly different view on that topic.)

Couple of issues there...

1. As much as the great firewall may be to stop "big bad western" influences, its also China blocking access to any criticism. There's a slew of propaganda China is promoting (cultural, historical, political, etc.) among their people. How would you brainwash people if the internet/app eco system was truly open?

2. Equating and/or justifying Chinese communistic/dictator-like practices to Eastern culture is dangerously misleading, not to say offensive to many democratic countries with varying types of the so called "Eastern culture" - the very countries enjoying democracy. Belief in "rights of the community" does not lead to blocking Facebook, Google, twitter, instagram, a voting system that's practically meaningless, a PM with no term limits, and so on and so forth..

Sure, China can't waterproof everything, but they sure are doing a great job at making it quite inconvenient, which is all they need to influence the minds/thoughts of their people. And it's practically impossible to block everything, China just focuses on the big players first where the most impact can be made (its not like China is being generious in letting some services off the hook). Like you said, Signal happened to grow the point of concern, hence the censor.

 

[CouldBeWorse]

While the app remains available in the App Store

Isn't it illegal for an app with end-to-end encryption to exist in the Chinese App Store?

 

[ruka.snow]

1. As much as the great firewall may be to stop "big bad western" influences, its also China blocking access to any criticism. There's a slew of propaganda China is promoting (cultural, historical, political, etc.) among their people. How would you brainwash people if the internet/app eco system was truly open?

You don't really need a closed internet to influence people with propaganda. In actuality the west manages this really effectively with the likes of Facebook and news agencies. Even the BBC which are the gold standard for non-biased news, they themselves will have a right, middle, or left stance depending on who is in power.

 

[BeefCake 15]

The end of dictatorships would be good, but has to be home grown movements. Regards to communism, when that does come it'll be lovely. China is not communist; communism doesn't support billionaires, a middle class that is larger than the population of the USA, private business, and dictatorships.

If China where communist then their entire population would be equally wealthy with no prospect for areas of extreme poverty and extreme wealth.

China is more akin to the USA, except in the USA they can vote in a different dictator every four years from a choice of two.

except the genocidal part too...

 

[iamPro]

You don't really need a closed internet to influence people with propaganda. In actuality the west manages this really effectively with the likes of Facebook and news agencies. Even the BBC which are the gold standard for non-biased news, they themselves will have a right, middle, or left stance depending on who is in power.

Not this argument again. Whataboutism, or even worse false equivalency - the typical response when bring up censorship and propaganda in places like China.

I agree propaganda or some form of agenda will always be pushed by the media/government all over the world. The US, Brits, etc. are no exception.

However, the major difference is (also alluded in the previous post) whether the common people have access to opposing views (open internet, etc) and/or the government isn’t a single party with no opposition. The US for example have media from each extreme of the political spectrum and everything in between with people having unhindered access to any. The political parties couldn’t be more polarizing. You just can’t equate places where debates and opposition are commonly presented with the political state and the propaganda pushed by the likes of China.

 

[ericwn]

That’s a shame.

But on the plus side they block Facebook and Twitter. They should shutdown Weibo, Tiktok, Clubhouse and all other social media mind warping malware too. Then everyone in the world will see the benefit of a mentally healthier natural thinking society and follow.

We lose nothing without social media. Word of mouth, traditional advertizing and product placement has always been the greatest and most reliable promoter of good businesses and we don’t get spyware crap from word of mouth.

Wonderful how you went from the actions of an oppressive Orwellian superstate that the article is about to talk about social media. And for sure , they have no interest in stopping their social media (bread and games of the modern day regimes).

 

[ericwn]

The end of dictatorships would be good, but has to be home grown movements. Regards to communism, when that does come it'll be lovely. China is not communist; communism doesn't support billionaires, a middle class that is larger than the population of the USA, private business, and dictatorships.

If China where communist then their entire population would be equally wealthy with no prospect for areas of extreme poverty and extreme wealth.

China is more akin to the USA, except in the USA they can vote in a different dictator every four years from a choice of two.

Well said, and the US tend to have their camps where they disregard human rights outsourced while the Chinese regime prefers to have it in house.

 

[1258186]

China is becoming more and more liked the dystopian nightmare presented in the book 1984 by George Orwell.