Environmentalists take aim at GM's civilian version of US military Humvee

[jayscheuerle]

Originally posted by iJon
they hybrid is such an awesome concept. those things get great MPG. only thing i dont like about the insight is that its fugly. but then there is the hybrid civic. it is nice but the problem for me would be that it is too slow. after having an acura legend for my first car its been great. i told my mom for next car this christmas its gotta be equal as fast or faster. i wonder if the hybrid engine is compatible with a fast car, or if you have to sacrifice that engine for speed.

iJon

You are absolutely iNsane iJon!

17 yrs. old and jonesing for your second car after the first being an Acura Legend that wasn't fast enough? And wanting to go faster?

No wonder insurance rates are so high!

At least I hope you're wearing your seatbelt!

 

[iJon]

Originally posted by jayscheuerle
You are absolutely iNsane iJon!

17 yrs. old and jonesing for your second car after the first being an Acura Legend that wasn't fast enough? And wanting to go faster?

No wonder insurance rates are so high!

At least I hope you're wearing your seatbelt!

hey now, i never asked for a new car. my mom said the legend is reaching its limit, so she said we will sell it and get a new one this christmas. personally i love my legend, i drive it more than my mom's z3 just because its faster and has a bose stero in it. and yes i always wear my seat belt, i never go in a car without it. my best friend got a bmw 3 series for his first car, its a blast to drive in, so im not that bad

iJon

 

[QCassidy352]

Originally posted by iJon
i can bet you that a mini van doesnt have as much space as my family's suburban. plus minivans are ugly, but that has nothing to do with the topic. personally i like driving the suburban. its the 2500 version so its jackedup way off the ground in stock condition. i can see everything on the road, its fast, i can go forever with out filling it up and it can fit all my friends into the car. some people hate suv's and thing they should be banned off the road, but it will never happen, because no one listens to those people and when i have kids and have a suv i will no if anyone hits me chances are much greater that my children wil be alright.

iJon

Oh good, a regular SUV wasn't bad enough - you have a jacked up SUV.
How about this for a slogan: "For when you aren't yet doing enough to endanger the drivers around you."

I am all for free choice on any issue where other people are not being put at risk, but SUVs should be banned because they are dangerous to others as follows:
1) their headlights shine directly in to the eyes (or mirrors, if going the same direction) of drivers of normal cars, even when not on high beams. It's absolutly blinding.
2) in a crash, drivers of smaller cars will be killed.
3) other drivers cannot see over or around an SUV without being an excessive distance away. And sometimes keeping such extreme distance is just not possible. (If you say otherwise, you clearly don't drive in the real world.)
4) when an SUV is hit from the side, it has a high chance of rolling over, often resulting in paralysis of the occupants. (tho I do believe that people should be able to risk their own lives if they want, but most SUV owners don't even know about the increased risk of paralysis.)

ijon, exactly how fast do you drive?? There are hardly any commerical cars available that can't hit 100 mph. Do you need to go faster than that??

 

[iJon]

Originally posted by QCassidy352
Oh good, a regular SUV wasn't bad enough - you have a jacked up SUV.
How about this for a slogan: "For when you aren't yet doing enough to endanger the drivers around you."

I am all for free choice on any issue where other people are not being put at risk, but SUVs should be banned because they are dangerous to others as follows:
1) their headlights shine directly in to the eyes (or mirrors, if going the same direction) of drivers of normal cars, even when not on high beams. It's absolutly blinding.
2) in a crash, drivers of smaller cars will be killed.
3) other drivers cannot see over or around an SUV without being an excessive distance away. And sometimes keeping such extreme distance is just not possible. (If you say otherwise, you clearly don't drive in the real world.)
4) when an SUV is hit from the side, it has a high chance of rolling over, often resulting in paralysis of the occupants. (tho I do believe that people should be able to risk their own lives if they want, but most SUV owners don't even know about the increased risk of paralysis.)

ijon, exactly how fast do you drive?? There are hardly any commerical cars available that can't hit 100 mph. Do you need to go faster than that??

well we didnt get the suburban for the hell of it. we bought it to pull a 36 foot long trailer, but after a bad experience we ended up just buying a motorhome. its not the top speed that i really want, becaus i hardly ever hit 100, only when im having fun on some open highways that i know the cops arent on. it is getting to a fast speed, acceleration is what i like. my legend is very speedy and gets up and goes. and about the lights, gmc has solved that problem, because yes the lights thing is annoying, but i have that problem with every car i drive . if i am driving down the road and lights are in my mirrors and hitting my eyes, gmc's suburban mirrors turn the light to a light green, which doesnt stare you down, its very convienent and i thank them for it. you guys can hate me for what cars my family have and how fast i drive, but i honestly dont care what you people think of my families vehicles. this all reminds me of the stupid lady in my town who lived in a tree because they were gonna cut it down to build a kohl's. the lady was an idiot and the only reason she came down was because her husband decided to divorce her and she had to come down for the court date. in court they asked her why she was against cutting down the tree, she said because they make oxygen. the lawyer asked they dont have trees in the desert and there is oxygen, she shut her mouth from then on because she realized she was an idiot. i am not saying you guys are idiots, its just all this enviromental talk makes me think of that dumb lady and its a good laugh when i think about it.

iJon

 

[Frohickey]

I drive one of those econoboxes... most of the time. This was one of those 40+ MPG small cars when the hybrids were not even being thought of yet. My reward was lower fuel costs and less maintenance costs.

I also drive one of those larger SUVs. I do not appreciate it when these born-again environmentalists tell me that my SUV is wreaking the environment, or that I'm not paying my fair share of costs for driving the SUV. Where were these environmentalists at when the first Geo Metros and Honda Civics first rolled off the line?

As to the argument that SUVs cause more injury in a collision because the large vehicle protects its occupants more than the small vehicle does. Simple, don't hit another vehicle.

There was this great article from Design News magazine, about SUVs vs lighter cars. It explored the argument about SUVs causing injuries in smaller cars, and went through various scenarios to 'fix' the problem. The ending paragraph says it all.

This could clearly be carried on endlessly of course, but aside form the humor, there are serious issues here. It is abvious that the PF (performance function) of life should include numerous factors. Among those factors are personal freedom and responsibility. As we reflect on the willingness of our astronauts and military personnel to lay their lives on the line for the sake of higher causes, we realize that there are values more precious than safety. Freedom is almost always obtained at the expense of safety, and requires an assumption of personal responsibility. Responsibility for the consequences of our choises gives us dignity in spite of our imperfections.

 

[jayscheuerle]

Originally posted by Frohickey
As to the argument that SUVs cause more injury in a collision because the large vehicle protects its occupants more than the small vehicle does. Simple, don't hit another vehicle.

But how do you keep the mass-loaded, slow stopping, aggressor piloted vehicle from hitting you?

Your scenario would have everyone buying larger and larger vehicles in order to come out on top during a collision. Where would this stop? The scariest thought is that those who know they are bad drivers, those who've had multiple accidents will probably be among the first to use this excuse to move up a weight class in order to protect themselves or their families. It's the cautious driver zipping around town in his Prius who is going to get creamed by the dolt with the cell phone and coffee in her Expedition.

The crash-victor consciousness of which you speak allows for and almost dictates a more casual state of driving. One gets sloppy when they know they've got one up on the competition. SUV pilots tend to be horrendous drivers because they can be. Environmental concerns aside, that's the biggest reason why they're dangerous.

 

[edesignuk]

I like them, kinda, but given the environmental crisis that we are all a part of, I see no reason for such a ridiculous motor. A British motoring journalist recently reviewed them on a renowned car show called Top Gear here in the UK. At one point the stupid thing was doing 1MPH!!!!! That is just totally unnecessary.
America (I think, though not 100% sure so please don’t shoot me if I’m wrong) is the largest polluter in the world, such motors do not help I’m sure.

…but I’d still love an Aston Martin V8 Vantage Lemans, no longer allowed to be made due to their crazy emissions…*Hint! Hint! Mr. Bush!*

edit: typo

 

[QCassidy352]

Originally posted by iJon
well we didnt get the suburban for the hell of it. we bought it to pull a 36 foot long trailer, but after a bad experience we ended up just buying a motorhome. its not the top speed that i really want, becaus i hardly ever hit 100, only when im having fun on some open highways that i know the cops arent on. it is getting to a fast speed, acceleration is what i like. my legend is very speedy and gets up and goes. and about the lights, gmc has solved that problem, because yes the lights thing is annoying, but i have that problem with every car i drive . if i am driving down the road and lights are in my mirrors and hitting my eyes, gmc's suburban mirrors turn the light to a light green, which doesnt stare you down, its very convienent and i thank them for it. you guys can hate me for what cars my family have and how fast i drive, but i honestly dont care what you people think of my families vehicles. this all reminds me of the stupid lady in my town who lived in a tree because they were gonna cut it down to build a kohl's. the lady was an idiot and the only reason she came down was because her husband decided to divorce her and she had to come down for the court date. in court they asked her why she was against cutting down the tree, she said because they make oxygen. the lawyer asked they dont have trees in the desert and there is oxygen, she shut her mouth from then on because she realized she was an idiot. i am not saying you guys are idiots, its just all this enviromental talk makes me think of that dumb lady and its a good laugh when i think about it.

iJon

um... so anyone who worries about the envirornment is an idiot? Ok. (not that my argument oppossed SUVs on envirornmental grounds anyway...)

What are you talking about with the lights?? I don't see how any lights would shine in your eyes on a jacked up suburban; I'm saying that *your* lights would shine in other people's eyes because and SUV is so much higher.

As to the argument that SUVs cause more injury in a collision because the large vehicle protects its occupants more than the small vehicle does. Simple, don't hit another vehicle.

Motor vehicles are going to get in to accidents. The question is how much damage is done to the involved people when the accidents do occur.

 

[iJon]

Originally posted by QCassidy352
um... so anyone who worries about the envirornment is an idiot? Ok. (not that my argument oppossed SUVs on envirornmental grounds anyway...)

What are you talking about with the lights?? I don't see how any lights would shine in your eyes on a jacked up suburban; I'm saying that *your* lights would shine in other people's eyes because and SUV is so much higher.



Motor vehicles are going to get in to accidents. The question is how much damage is done to the involved people when the accidents do occur.

no, not anyone here is an idiot, they lady in my city who became an owl for 2 weeks and had no point to back up her stupidity was an idiot, i dont know why i even talked about her, i just came to to my mind. at night when im driving on the bypass every car behind me, big or small hits my mirrors, well the suburban turns that light to a greenish tint so it is easy on the eyes and i dont have to move my head around to avoid the light, and that is why i love driving the suburban at night, its easier on my eyes.

iJon

 

[MacAztec]

SUV

SUVs kick ass. I really don't see why everyone has a problem with them. I DON'T like the SUVs that get really horrible gas milage, but I dont even think we should be using gas.

The government should have alloted enough money to the development of hydrogen fuel cells so that we can USE hydrogen cars. They are way more efficient, gas is cheaper, the cabin is safer, etc.


Currently, my family does not own any SUVs, just a minivan, BMW, ford taurus, and a ford mustang.

We used to have broncos, explorers, etc.

My dad decided its easier to drive through the grape fields in a lower car so u can see under the vine.

So, thats why we dont own an SUV. But they are still awesome vehicles, and I love 'em.

Dont complain about them using a lot of gas, complain to the government for not putting hydrogen fuel cars in the mainstream market. It would be so simple. Gas companies can just change their gas lines to hydrogen, and it works fine. I read all about it in Scientific American.

 

[jayscheuerle]

Re: SUV

Originally posted by MacAztec

The government should have alloted enough money to the development of hydrogen fuel cells so that we can USE hydrogen cars. They are way more efficient, gas is cheaper, the cabin is safer, etc.

Dont complain about them using a lot of gas, complain to the government for not putting hydrogen fuel cars in the mainstream market. It would be so simple. Gas companies can just change their gas lines to hydrogen, and it works fine. I read all about it in Scientific American.

The problem with hydrogen is that though it's plentiful in the universe, free hydrogen is not plentiful here. Pretty much all of it has escaped our atmosphere. What we do have is plenty of hydrogen bound to oxygen in the form of water. Unfortunately, the amount of energy needed to extract this hydrogen from water is large. Hydrogen cars would be non-polluting, but the plants that produce the hydrogen would now be polluting more. We'd just be shifting the source of production from one place to another.

The technological breakthrough that we need to make hydrogen in a cheap and plentiful manner hasn't happened yet.

 

[iJon]

Re: Re: SUV

Originally posted by jayscheuerle
The problem with hydrogen is that though it's plentiful in the universe, free hydrogen is not plentiful here. Pretty much all of it has escaped our atmosphere. What we do have is plenty of hydrogen bound to oxygen in the form of water. Unfortunately, the amount of energy needed to extract this hydrogen from water is large. Hydrogen cars would be non-polluting, but the plants that produce the hydrogen would now be polluting more. We'd just be shifting the source of production from one place to another.

The technological breakthrough that we need to make hydrogen in a cheap and plentiful manner hasn't happened yet.

whats up with this new concept honda (i think its a concept). i saw it when i was acura pricing. apparently it runs of water vapor or fuel cells or something? www.honda.com

iJon

 

[MacFan25]

Originally posted by tazo
as soon as i get an apology from macfan25 for stealing my avatar, although now it is changed, i will change it back...

sorry tazo. You must be referring to the iMac 'tar I had. I saw that you had a similar avatar so I changed to the iTunes logo.

Anyway, getting back on topic, I think Ford is coming out with a hybrid version of one of their SUVs, the Escape. Very cool.

 

[jayscheuerle]

Re: Re: Re: SUV

Originally posted by iJon
whats up with this new concept honda (i think its a concept). i saw it when i was acura pricing. apparently it runs of water vapor or fuel cells or something? www.honda.com

iJon

It still needs a big tank of hydrogen, which is expensive to extract (most likely from water). This Honda engine, then recombines the hydrogen with oxygen to turn it back to water, which is the only exhaust.

From the car owners point of view, it's extremely green and clean. The problem is that fossil fuels are probably being used to power the plants that extract the hydrogen from the water in the first place.

Regardless, it's still a good thing and such research helps everybody out in the end.

- j

 

[Frohickey]

jayscheuerle, I'm glad that some here have done some reading about the implications of moving to a hydrogen economy. The production of free hydrogen is what most people have NOT thought through, all they see is the low/no pollution when extracting the energy from free hydrogen, but not the pollution involved in making hydrogen to begin with.

Last I heard, environmentalists are also against genetically modified plants. Seems to me that the best thing would be to genetically modify some plants that produce free hydrogen from water and sunlight, then, you would grow these plants in large greenhouses where the hydrogen would be captured and bottled.

 

[johnnowak]

Exactly. Being against genetically modified food sources is just silly in my opinion. You get more food from the same area, and you can avoid having to move into areas you'd otherwise have to move into to continue to produce enough food.

Same thing if we stopped using pesticides to produce food... much more land would be needed.

Environments are often idealistic nuts who have no idea of how things actually work. They mean well, but often fail to realize that if they always had their way, things would actually be worse for the environment.

 

[johnnowak]

Of course.. now I realize that's not at all what you were saying.. heh.

 

[Frohickey]

I've met some rabid environmentalists that are very much against any land use, even for land that had been used for generations. Their idea of land conservation is to get humans out of the area permanently, its as if they believe humans are a disease and should be exterminated. They want population control, control over people's mode of transportation, control over people's dietary habits, control over people's use of private land. In essence, they are control freaks. Not anyone you want to have control of the government (monopoly on the legal use of force). (I said LEGAL, not MORAL use of force.)

Only saving grace is that they are also anti-war. So, they will not go for the wholesale slaughter of countries that do not subscribe to their beliefs. They are willing to fine you to death, or jail you for life though.

 

[funkywhat2]

Originally posted by jayscheuerle
SUVs (especially Hummers) are right up there with pit-bulls– extensions of manhood for the under-endowed. If you can't be a man, wear a prop.

Guns are nice for this too.

- j

Ahem...

Pardon me, but you seem not to see that most (i.e not the Hummer) SUVs can serve a purpose. For example: My family.

Two parents, five kids, dog. Car is out. The few wagons that will hold seven people that were in our price range (35-45K) had rear facing jumpseats in the back, causing mommy to eliminate them. So off Minivan shopping we (Mommy, Daddy, son) go. First to Ford. The Windstar looked good, so I get in. My seat is in the third row. Get in seat, adjust to sit comfortably and, *ouch* my head hits the plastic edging along the headliner. So I get out. Next, we go to Dodge. Same routine, same result. Honda - six month wait. Sorry, no go. Daddy avoids GM products like the plague, so no Chevy/Pontiac/Oldsmobile. Finally, Toyota. Get in Sienna. I fit. Mom gets in, dad gets in. They fit, they like it. Then comes the final test. Mom whips out the double stroller, and opens the hatch, inserts stroller, and slams hatch shut. A loud thud is heard. Not only does it not fit, but the stroller is deformed. So, as we head back into the dealership, a Jade metallic Toyota Sequoia Limited catches Mom's eye. We stroll over, and get in. I fit, with two or so inches of room in the back, the most I'd have delt with in all the autos tested. Mom gets in, dad gets in, they love it. Mom puts the now repaired stroller in the hatch, and closes it. The hatch closes, no banging heard. In fact, over three inches of clearence between stroller and door.

Needless to say, we bought that Sequoia. And we all fit. I'm now in the second row, my two school ages sisters in the third row, and two baby seats next to me in the second row. We've orad tripped at least six times in the thing, with a small carrier thing on the top. We could never have done that in a minivan.

 

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by funkywhat2
Ahem...

Pardon me, but you seem not to see that most (i.e not the Hummer) SUVs can serve a purpose. For example: My family.

Two parents, five kids, dog. Car is out. The few wagons that will hold seven people that were in our price range (35-45K) had rear facing jumpseats in the back, causing mommy to eliminate them. So off Minivan shopping we (Mommy, Daddy, son) go. First to Ford. The Windstar looked good, so I get in. My seat is in the third row. Get in seat, adjust to sit comfortably and, *ouch* my head hits the plastic edging along the headliner. So I get out. Next, we go to Dodge. Same routine, same result. Honda - six month wait. Sorry, no go. Daddy avoids GM products like the plague, so no Chevy/Pontiac/Oldsmobile. Finally, Toyota. Get in Sienna. I fit. Mom gets in, dad gets in. They fit, they like it. Then comes the final test. Mom whips out the double stroller, and opens the hatch, inserts stroller, and slams hatch shut. A loud thud is heard. Not only does it not fit, but the stroller is deformed. So, as we head back into the dealership, a Jade metallic Toyota Sequoia Limited catches Mom's eye. We stroll over, and get in. I fit, with two or so inches of room in the back, the most I'd have delt with in all the autos tested. Mom gets in, dad gets in, they love it. Mom puts the now repaired stroller in the hatch, and closes it. The hatch closes, no banging heard. In fact, over three inches of clearence between stroller and door.

Needless to say, we bought that Sequoia. And we all fit. I'm now in the second row, my two school ages sisters in the third row, and two baby seats next to me in the second row. We've orad tripped at least six times in the thing, with a small carrier thing on the top. We could never have done that in a minivan.

What about the VW Eurovan?

 

[Sun Baked]

Originally posted by pseudobrit
What about the VW Eurovan?

Then there's also the Mercedes Sprinter turbodiesel van.

Not really advertised to the public but it's around.

Of course I can't see the site right now.

www.sprinter.com/echora/dcvan/sprinter

 

[iJon]

Originally posted by pseudobrit
What about the VW Eurovan?

i guess when it comes down to it people like the looks of the car, but thats just me. when i look at the eurovan i think of the dodge cargo van getting ready to rob the bank. and im sure the toyota is much more luxorious than the eurovan, which matters to me but maybe not to others.

iJon

 

[Durandal7]

SUVs have their place, I do disapprove of their massive size. There should be some sort of size limit imposed on manufacturers so I don't have to pull my tiny car over to the side of the street to let the idiot in the Lincoln Navigator who doesn't feel like moving over a few feet by. Smog is a problem, though I find it incredibly arrogant to assume that humans are god's gift to the universe and can demolish something on the scale of a planet without trying.

What pisses me off the most is all the idiots around where I live with massive diesel pick-up trucks. I have no problem with carpenters, plumbers, contractors, etc. using them but I find it a strech that the obese guy who somehow keeps it sparkly clean, waxed and empty all the time really needs it. They are too loud and dirty to not be limited to professional use.

 

[Frohickey]

Originally posted by Durandal7
SUVs have their place, I do disapprove of their massive size. There should be some sort of size limit imposed on manufacturers so I don't have to pull my tiny car over to the side of the street to let the idiot in the Lincoln Navigator who doesn't feel like moving over a few feet by. Smog is a problem, though I find it incredibly arrogant to assume that humans are god's gift to the universe and can demolish something on the scale of a planet without trying.

What pisses me off the most is all the idiots around where I live with massive diesel pick-up trucks. I have no problem with carpenters, plumbers, contractors, etc. using them but I find it a strech that the obese guy who somehow keeps it sparkly clean, waxed and empty all the time really needs it. They are too loud and dirty to not be limited to professional use.

Someone should appoint you supreme leader, then maybe you can put these SUV drivers that you do not approve of into reeducation camps. Maybe if they do not behave, you can have them neutralized. (End_obvious_sarcasm)

I used to think just like you, that SUVs serve no purpose other than taking up room on the streets, room on the parking lots, and blocking your view of the street. Also, I have had my fair share of inconsiderate drivers, but these are not limited to SUVs, they are in sports cars, tiny econoboxes, luxury cars and even tractor trailers. But its the driver that is the issue, not the SUV.

 

[funkywhat2]

I should've mentioned the Eurovan, and even if the Sprinter was available at the time (Feb 2001) we wouldn't have bought it, due to the diesel(at least the one you mentioned, I didn't go to the site.) It's impossible to find in my area.