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surferfb

macrumors 6502a
Nov 7, 2007
540
1,328
Washington DC
Yeah. Average Smartphone selling price in the US around $800, average smartphone selling price in India 21000 rupee ($250).

I think you’re forgetting the number of people in India. Large denominator makes the average price low, but there are a LOT of people buying iPhones in India.

This is from last year, and everything I read shows iPhone sales are growing there:

For Apple, India overtook Germany and France for iPhone sales in the June quarter, and is now behind the U.K., Japan, China and the U.S., Counterpoint Research told CNBC on Tuesday. It is the first time India has been one of Apple’s top five markets for iPhone sales.

Notice the two largest counties in Apple’s Europe (the UK and India) aren’t in the EU. That 7% of Apple’s total revenue is looking more realistic the more I dig in.
 
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Mrkevinfinnerty

macrumors 68020
Aug 13, 2022
2,058
6,528
I think you’re forgetting the number of people in India. Large denominator makes the average price low, but there are a LOT of people buying iPhones in India.

This is from last year, and everything I read shows iPhone sales are growing there:



Notice the two largest counties in Apple’s Europe (the UK and India) aren’t in the EU. That 7% of Apple’s total revenue is looking more realistic the more I dig in.

Two largest in what sense? Population? Germany is bigger than the UK, France too by official figures.

UK and India are also investigating Apple's business practices by the way.

This is really an rathe pointless debate anyway. Nobody, outside Apple, is going to know how many units they are moving of what in any individual region or nation.

Their revenue from the EU is enough that Apple will, eventually, have to comply with regulation there.
 

wbeasley

macrumors 68000
Nov 23, 2007
1,792
2,126
Yeah. Average Smartphone selling price in the US around $800, average smartphone selling price in India 21000 rupee ($250).
the most populated country and hugely diverse economic statuses...

of course the average price is low but the smaller top end love their expensive toys and can afford them.
Middle Class is booming there. Same with Arab countries.
 

vantelimus

macrumors regular
Feb 16, 2013
228
404
Gotta charge for the added value is what apple seems to be about, so i guess app developers can start charging apple for the added value their apps bring to apple? I doubt many iPhone users only use the apps Apple makes so companies like facebook and google bring lots of value that they by apples own logic should be paid for.
For the most part, apps have zero value to apple compared to the value they have for the app makers. Sure, there are a few big apps (like those from Adobe, Microsoft, and the like) which someone might not buy Apple were they not available on iPhone. But those are not the companies whinging about not making enough money. I use a free guitar tuner app from Fender. Fender gets quite a bit more value keeping its name in my face than Apple gets from that app being on my phone.

Whether you like it or not, Apple has built the most valuable affluent customer base by providing value that Nokia, Google, and others don’t want to provide. If Facebook wants to retreat to a user base that excludes affluent users, they absolutely should drop iPhone and iPad support. Sell your Meta stock before that happens because their advertising revenue will plummet.
 
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Nuno Lopes

macrumors 65816
Sep 6, 2011
1,348
1,265
Lisbon, Portugal
Maybe you heard about epic vs apple where epic tried to define a market as one way but the market was ultimately decided to be another way. The definition of a market is malleable.

In iOS ecossystem you have multiple buyers, one seller using multiple suppliers. That is how a shop works, not a market. As I said this is easily verifiable though looking at the invoicing. App Store policies and the reasoning behind becomes way more clearer, as they would make no sense in the context of a Market.

I took time to give an example of a place that works both ways. As a shop and a market.

I believe it so simple that you know and understand this.

Now, you are saying to me that the reason why you used wrongly the term is someone else's fault. Ok. But I don’t care what Epic does nor what Costco does in this context. Maybe they also lie about what defines a Market. Any first year economics child know the difference between a Market and a Shop.

Now if you say the term it’s malleable, than I assume that a lie is consciously being told. An exercise of diffusing the term yet not its common public perception.

If you use the term Market, as of Apple created a Market you are implying something distinct from what it is. A level a freedom and self protection that suppliers of a shop and customers of a single shop don't have if they want to keep being suppliers and using their products ... unlike a Shop or Buyer in a Market. You want to establish what it implies, a market dynamics, as a fact and create all sorts of concepts on top. But it does not have such dynamics of course. The reasoning behind such shop policies become way clearer for what it is.

Not interested in debating things in those terms. I find it intellectually dishonest.
It becomes a fight of words, not actual issues.

Cheers.
 
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I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
34,811
24,800
Gotta be in it to win it
In iOS ecossystem you have multiple buyers, one seller using multiple suppliers. That is how a shop works, not a market. As I said this is easily verifiable though looking at the invoicing. App Store policies and the reasoning behind becomes way more clearer, as they would make no sense in the context of a Market.

I took time to give an example of a place that works both ways. As a shop and a market.

I believe it so simple that you know and understand this.

Now, you are saying to me that the reason why you used wrongly the term is someone else's fault. Ok. But I don’t care what Epic does nor what Costco does in this context. Maybe they also lie about what defines a Market. Any first year economics child know the difference between a Market and a Shop.

Now if you say the term it’s malleable, than I assume that a lie is consciously being told. An exercise of diffusing the term yet not its common public perception.

If you use the term Market, as of Apple created a Market you are implying something distinct from what it is. A level a freedom and self protection that suppliers of a shop and customers of a single shop don't have if they want to keep being suppliers and using their products ... unlike a Shop or Buyer in a Market. You want to establish what it implies, a market dynamics, as a fact and create all sorts of concepts on top. But it does not have such dynamics of course. The reasoning behind such shop policies become way clearer for what it is.

Not interested in debating things in those terms. I find it intellectually dishonest.
It becomes a fight of words, not actual issues.

Cheers.
You’re trying to convince me of your definition of a market. And when I didn’t agree you said it was intellectual dishonesty. I still don’t agree if your definition of a market. I haven’t agreed in the past and won’t agree in the future. Totally understanding governments can do what they want. That doesn’t mean all they do is good, fair or beneficial. As always YMMV.
 

surferfb

macrumors 6502a
Nov 7, 2007
540
1,328
Washington DC
And, the EU would stop that ransom in time in the EU. The Americans can go on paying...and that's their right. 😏
Why do you think developers deserve to use Apple’s intellectual property (iOS) without paying?

I think you’d agree if Apple used Spotify’s music recommendation algorithm for Apple Music, Spotify would be within their rights to ask for compensation. (Yes I know Spotify wouldn’t license it, but humor me for the purposes of an analogy).

So why isn’t Apple within its rights to ask Spotify for compensation for Spotify’s use of iOS? Why is that “ransom”?
 

wbeasley

macrumors 68000
Nov 23, 2007
1,792
2,126
These companies aren't using Apple's services but apple still wants to tax them with a "CTF" fee.
its called a Core Technology Fee for a reason.... Apple spent time, money and effort setting up a system, advertising, making training materials and tools and establishing trust with customers and they let others use it.

it's core tech to the whole iOS experience.

you stay in the store, you get that included in your commission fee.
you go outside, you pay for the use of these things. it's not that hard to understand.
unless you think everything should just be free to use.
there's a word for that: freeloader.

you get it for free means every other person pays for you to enjoy the spoils.
how exactly is that fair?
 

ric22

macrumors 68030
Mar 8, 2022
2,677
2,773
Why do you think developers deserve to use Apple’s intellectual property (iOS) without paying?
Luckily it doesn't matter what our opinion is- uninhibited sideloading is now a legal obligation in the EU, and fees that contravene the spirit of the law will very quickly be removed by Apple (depending on the imminence of potential fine).
 

Nuno Lopes

macrumors 65816
Sep 6, 2011
1,348
1,265
Lisbon, Portugal
You’re trying to convince me of your definition of a market.

It's not at all my definition.

It's the definition that any economics professor will teach you. A market is not a shop and vice versa. The App Store is a shop with multiple suppliers, not a market. It does not have any market like policies. There might be competition between suppliers to better serve the shop customers and get payed more money by the shop due to it ... but that is just it.

Cheers.
 
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Mrkevinfinnerty

macrumors 68020
Aug 13, 2022
2,058
6,528
Not interested in debating things in those terms. I find it intellectually dishonest.
It becomes a fight of words, not actual issues.

Cheers.


You've got to realise how many members on this forum are loaded up with AAPL stock. They aren't trying to debate the principle they are thinking about what adds the most value for them.

If Samsung or Microsoft were behaving the way Apple does they would be waving their pitchforks.
 

chmania

macrumors 6502a
Dec 2, 2023
813
620
Why do you think developers deserve to use Apple’s intellectual property (iOS) without paying?

I think you’d agree if Apple used Spotify’s music recommendation algorithm for Apple Music, Spotify would be within their rights to ask for compensation. (Yes I know Spotify wouldn’t license it, but humor me for the purposes of an analogy).

So why isn’t Apple within its rights to ask Spotify for compensation for Spotify’s use of iOS? Why is that “ransom”?
Oh, I am, we are, not against your right to pay.
 
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wbeasley

macrumors 68000
Nov 23, 2007
1,792
2,126
You've got to realise how many members on this forum are loaded up with AAPL stock. They aren't trying to debate the principle they are thinking about what adds the most value for them.

If Samsung or Microsoft were behaving the way Apple does they would be waving their pitchforks.
what exactly is the number of AAPL stock holders on here? You have that figure on hand to back your claim?
 

webkit

macrumors 68040
Jan 14, 2021
3,304
2,874
United States
Operating for smartphones are a natural duopoly due to network effects.

Third-party developers will develop for only one, two, maybe the three or four most used operating systems - and consumers will converge on them, due to app availability. It‘s a feedback loop, if you will.

Ok, but a developer choosing to develop for only one or a few operating systems is a choice and doesn't necessarily make the market a "natural" anything (monopoly, duopoly, oligopoly). Natural monopolies are typically tied to a specific region such as an electric company or an ISP being the sole provider to a town and are (supposed to be) more strictly monitored and regulated by that local government.
 

Nuno Lopes

macrumors 65816
Sep 6, 2011
1,348
1,265
Lisbon, Portugal
You've got to realise how many members on this forum are loaded up with AAPL stock. They aren't trying to debate the principle they are thinking about what adds the most value for them.

If Samsung or Microsoft were behaving the way Apple does they would be waving their pitchforks.

True. But being a stock holder does not mean one needs to tell behave like a douche. One can be ruthless in business while sticking to the truth and loyal to the exchange.

For instance, there is a story of a guy that sold his Digital Marketing company focused on In-App Ads to Apple. His company created a platform that developers could use to deploy in app Ads, etc etc ... one of the first if not best of its kind back then. He settled the price of X with head of Apple business. It just needed the final approval from SJ. He went to the meeting with SJ, and SJ re-traded for Y million less than what was previously agreed with the business staff. The guy was pissed with the attitude because the value was already agreed. SJ argument was something like "Well, in the end it's me who signs the deal. It is closed when I say it's closed. You have a nice platform here and we are interested in it ... we think we can go really far with it. You know that we can simply change policies and block your tech from working on all iPhones ... right? Go and explain that to your board". He, swallowed it and accepted the deal.

SJ did not try to redefine common truths to get his point through.

PS: Under the DMA such property transfer approach to a negotiation would be probably illegal if it happened in the EU. But the fact is, there was nothing illegal on SJ approach to the negotiation at the time and place. Nothing lacking clarity and truth. Its's a Shop, Apple shop, the customers are Apple's Customers. Not the suppliers. The iPhone ability to run Apps is Apple's. There is no regulation protecting the buyers ownership of the iPhone in these deals, neither the suppliers.

Everyone but Apple is just doing a leap of faith. It's not just Apple trying to pursue this approach towards the new economy. Technically backed up by comparatively cheap glorified file distribution systems. There is nothing liberal about it.
 
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ric22

macrumors 68030
Mar 8, 2022
2,677
2,773
Glad you're at least up front about supporting government theft!
I'm sad for you that that's how you see it. Are you also unhappy that Microsoft don't get money from every independent dev that writes software for Windows?

By the way, did you read up on the direct hotel booking concept after our messages here yesterday? You didn't realise that Google were charging hotels to use their platform, did you? As you were sad about the loss of direct bookings for hotels and thought they were losing out bad. Bless your little heart! Mean ol' uncle Google and auntie Apple tricked you into thinking they were the good guys fighting the good fight for the little man against the evil EU. 🥲
 
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