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I love how Apple fans just make up stuff that doesn't even resemble reality to try to make some kind of weird argument. It certainly is entertaining.


I’m not an Apple “fan”, I’d certainly purchase an Android OS phone, or even the Ubuntu phone if it was ever actually released. I’m just a fan of common sense. Even Ray Charles can see that Spotify and Epic are greedy for more money and angry that Apple
is ‘keeping’ them from accessing it. It’s quite simple, if Spotify and Epic don’t like it, go somewhere else. My example of forcing MB to sell my Honda’s is perfect. I want access to MB’s customers and I want their sales lot with my Honda’s, but I’m upset they won’t let me use it so I’ll moan until they do. Not even the same company, but in the spirit of “fairness and competition” they should let me. It’s not right but what do I care? I just want my profits to grow and if I need to force another entity to do my bidding, so be it.
 
if Spotify and Epic don’t like it, go somewhere else.
I mean, that's what they're trying to do.

My example of forcing MB to sell my Honda’s is perfect. I want access to MB’s customers and I want their sales lot with my Honda’s, but I’m upset they won’t let me use it so I’ll moan until they do.
No it's not even close to perfect. Nobody is complaining that they aren't allowed to sell their apps on Apple's app store. They are complaining that they are forced to sell their apps on Apple's App store. It is pretty much the opposite of your example.
 
People coming out of the woodwork to essentially defend their right to get totally railed by megacorps and to make sure entrenched megacorps can never be dethroned from their position will never be not funny.
 
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The way I see it, EU is falling into Apple’s trap.

Fundamentally the issue aren’t the Apple App Store policies, or App Store policies in general. But the tie between the App Store’s and gatekeeping devices / OS, case in iOS.

The phenomena of the Internet, and its impact on digital services and apps and advances and innovation, stem from one single idea. The democratization of self publishing and self market. Today the technology is there for anyone to be able to publish their app, digital content, provide digital services and selling it lawfully. Technology has evolved to levels to a point cost is no issue to do so. From private internet connections, routers, PCs, down to databases, servers in the cloud you name it, all can be reasonably acquired or hired. People and businesses flocked to this, creating content, new ways to distribute music, video, bank transactions, digital money… you name it. This very premise around self publishing, simply imploded private networks ventures targeting the general population … remember AOL?

What we have here, is a company using the pretext of people buying their devices working at the edge of this vast infrastructure, with such numbers that equal to a siege, to demand a mandatory cut of the value generated by the very fabric of the Internet. It has done this by developing a tie between App / Digital Business Distribution and Sales (App Store) to a device people use to access the Internet, to access and use business services and everyday tools.

What EU should focus for now is not if businesses can freely communicate with their users served by Apps in the Apple App Store or any other store. But effectively create regulations that untie the App Store(s) to the devices and back, any App Store working on top of Gatekeeping devices. Protecting the very notion of Self Publishing and open commerce.

They should have a look at what Apple calls Web Publishing, no way this is DMA compliant. Its all aim to take self publishing abilities out of the Internet and take over the cash registers. The very notion of business property becomes a joke if not a Gatekeeper.

Yes Apple should be payed for their OS/Devices. They are being payed, aren’t they? Just the other day the iPhone sales accounted for 75% of Apple revenue. They should be payed for their APIs m and frameworks … sure. But no way this convoluted policies are about that. Just check how everyone is doing it. From water and electricity supply to cloud services. From internet connections to buying a device. No one is doing this for a reason …

But how can companies of any kind feel compelled to close such a deal then in other circumstances? Here is the loop hole .... You sell to one group of people a device to access the Internet, Its just a smartphone. You know, in that sense similar to any device used previously for such matter. Something that has no direct association with these companies businesses, no direct association to even these companies industries. An empty shell in terms of usefulness per si, just potential to access the Internet. Let's call this group of people, the business customers.

Once these companies customers are using the device they than ask these companies for their cash register if they want to serve their very own customers the way they expect to be served. Lovely isn't it?

The irony of it is that these companies actually believe their are communicating with their customers while never actually selling anything to them (what name is the billing receipt on the subscription, who actually pay in the end this companies, their customers? The middle man is so convincing that actually is able to sell the idea that just a customer name and VAT number on the billing receipt would be a security hazard lolololol) ... ops lost your cash register to someone? Meanwhile, without even selling anything to your customers, you are still liable to everything ... the middle man just magically vanishes out of that equation in those cases ... it is has if does not even existed. This a typical man in the middle attack in security lingo at a massive scale.

A brilliant game of perception.

No, this is not about Apple getting payed for the use of their technology. It’s about a bunch of companies potential control of the digital economy itself trough these terminals at the very edge of the Intenet, things that work on the edge of it all and others to come. Effectively a siege around the Internet and in consequence around any business that it’s connected to it. Suddenly, the potential for a mandatory final Agent to sell a 10kg of potatoes for a family to feed their children is there. Just because it may now charging 0%, once people get used to it for everything else is just a small step. After all without such device … All for nothing but the fact that people bought a device to access the Internet. What a loop hole.

The internal App Store policies in iOS would be irrelevant if a gag wasn’t put by Apple around self publishing. They even rebranded the concept … they call self publishing / market in iOS … side loading. “Well if you put like that is indeed a major security hazard”

Heheheh. Take the example of macOS … the App Store policies are irrelevant there. Why? Because one can freely self publish their App, their digital services, their digital assets.
 
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Good.

While I am unsure about illegal, deliberately convoluted and confusing? Absolutely. Scummy and disgusting? Also yes.

The more pushback so this blows up in Apple's face, the better.

This abhorrent malicious compliance has to stop.
Agreed. How dare Apple want to monetize a platform that they themselves sunk millions into for development, distribution, etc. In a free market society, everyone should be freely able to profit off of other people hard work.
 
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This is bizarre. I exchanged money for a phone. It’s mine. But some people here and Apple think Apple owns access to it. If that’s the case, I want a cut of Apple’s cut.
And you received a phone. However, you licensed the OS that comes with the phone, so Apple does still, in fact, own the OS you use on said phone. So they're within their rights to ask for compensation when third party companies use Apple's property to enable their business. If developers don't like it, Android has over 70% market share in the EU, so there are plenty of customers there.
 
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One thing I think we can all agree on here is thanking the moderators! They’ve let us all discuss our viewpoints without deleting our posts and deeming it as belonging in the, “Political”, section. Let’s all agree that it’s kind of them to allow the flow and course of discussion to continue 👏
 
And you received a phone. However, you licensed the OS that comes with the phone, so Apple does still, in fact, own the OS you use on said phone. So they're within their rights to ask for compensation when third party companies use Apple's property to enable their business. If developers don't like it, Android has over 70% market share in the EU, so there are plenty of customers there.


If the EU doesn’t like it, they can always promote the use of Nokia phones since they’re local. At a ‘whopping’ value of $3.80 a share, I’m sure Nokia would love the support 💕
 
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IF I want a phone that allow side loading, I will use android! That's the choice.

That is not the choice. That is the choice you want people to make as an Apple shareholder such as yourself. that gets money from Apple earnings at the expense of such a siege.

A regular user simply does not care has you do. In fact most of these policies are tangent to an iPhone 99% users.

So let’s not pretend that you are simply a user that happened to buy an iOS device because they saw the latest Apple commercial or friends and family use.

The choice is in people freely choose to whom they buy anything. Not just the phone. That is the freedom you have today, that some want to take it away for profit.
 
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Either Apple doesn't understand the requirements of the EU DMA law or is choosing to intentionally undermine it. I don't think the EU is going to allow this to go on so they'll be heavy fines being threatened soon.

Majority of European & International companies operate in the EU and whether they like it or not, comply with the law. It just seems 1 American company seems to want to do it's own thing.
 
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You seem like someone who has been around for a while, so I will pretend that you just simply forgot that operating systems have existed for decades and that providing development tools and SDKs for third party development is part of the job of being an operating system developer.
This has nothing to do with operating systems and everything to do with the EU mandating change in Apples’ business practices. The change in allowing multiple app stores, not letting apple bar dodgy developers from the ecosystem, changing fees an commissions all amounts to the EU playing Robin Hood.
The EU isn't giving anything of Apple's away for free. They haven't told Apple that they can no longer charge a normal annual fee for access to development tools, and they haven't told Apple that they cannot continue to charge the same fee for providing the same services for hosting apps on the App store.
They exactly have allowed a change in the fee rate structure by mandating multiple app stores. This is the point conveniently left out in the above. Sure apple doesn’t have change their fee rate structure, but they are forced to allow other stores that can charge different fee rates. This is the Robin Hood impact of the DMA.
The EU is only telling Apple that they can no longer coerce developers into only utilize Apple's store to distribute applications.
Coerce is the wrong word. Apple isn’t the only digital platform out there. Think my point was explained sufficiently above.
 
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It's a great thing then that we have legislation that attemps to quantify subjective criteria and a court system to clarify things in any and every incident where the limits are not clear.

And you still haven't explained anything regarding your claim how DMA is supposedly giving away Apple's intellectual property for free.
Explained my opinion across multiple threads.
 
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Either Apple doesn't understand the requirements of the EU DMA law or is choosing to intentionally undermine it. I don't think the EU is going to allow this to go on so they'll be heavy fines being threatened soon.

Majority of European & International companies operate in the EU and whether they like it or not, comply with the law. It just seems 1 American company seems to want to do it's own thing.
Then why don’t you elucidate what apple is supposed to do, within the law?
 
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correct, and that's their decision they'll have to live with. they knowingly bought a phone they can't side load apps into, so they should live with that decision.

Most people don't know anything about 'side loading'. They get a phone, they get the apps they want from the whatever available app store is appropriate for that platform, and that's it.

As someone that's had every flagship iPhone since the original, and whose large family has also had iPhones most of that time, they've all been able to get and use the apps they want. Not one of them has complained about Apple's stance on side-loading. I've never even heard one of them use that term; I'm willing to be bet most of them have never even heard it.

Similarly, the few extended family members that have used Android devices have never expressed joy about being able to side-load. Indeed, none of them have ever used that term and all seem to have been able to get and download the apps they want to use as well.

IMO, if an app wants to run on my phone, a device that has a tremendous amount of my personal data on it and a device I depend on hourly, it can go through the normal vetting process every other app goes through.
 
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This has nothing to do with operating systems
Your quote exactly: "All that stuff under the covers called iOS in the freeloading part." If this isn't about monetizing access to operating system APIs, then it is about gatekeeping ownership of a customer base, which is even worse.

and everything to do with the EU mandating change in Apples’ business practices.
Yes. Like any responsible governing body, the EU has identified a particularly abusive business practice by one particular corporation and is mandating that said corporation stop with that abusive business practice. That's not "playing Robin Hood", that is doing what governments are supposed to do.

They exactly have allowed a change in the fee rate structure by mandating multiple app stores. This is the point conveniently left out in the above. Sure apple doesn’t have change their fee rate structure, but they are forced to allow other stores that can charge different fee rates. This is the Robin Hood impact of the DMA.
This doesn't follow. Apple are free to continue to charge those developers who choose to remain in the Apple app store and who continue to use Apple's distribution and payment services the same commission that they currently charge developers for those services. Given the convenience and customer base currently utilizing that service, it is expected that the majority of developers will continue to use those services. Apple just aren't allowed to force developers to use those services in order to develop software for the iOS platform.

Coerce is the wrong word. Apple isn’t the only digital platform out there. Think my point was explained sufficiently above.
It is a large enough platform that pretty much everyone in the world understands how important it is that developers have access to develop software for it. Continuing to say "...not the only digital platform out there" is simple willful ignorance to a very obvious reality that everyone who has ever owned a phone in their entire life fully understands.

Coerce is exactly the right word. "Use our distribution service or allow us to audit your sales and assess an entrance fee based on a convoluted calculation designed to make compliance difficult" is absolutely coercion.
 
According to Apple, the new initial acquisition fee that developers who use links have to pay reflects the value that the App Store provides when connecting developers to customers in the EU.
That would make sense if people used the app store to search out new apps. As it exists right now, it's more of a glorified download link, and doesn't provide value for developers.
 
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I still say Apple should do the following

1.), Fully bring out what is essentially a clone of Android and rebrand iOS as IwastoodumbtojustbuyanandroidphoneOS.
2.), push out update where users get to choose which OS to install, a relaunched iOS that is as Apple developed or the Android Clone.
 
Your quote exactly: "All that stuff under the covers called iOS in the freeloading part." If this isn't about monetizing access to operating system APIs, then it is about gatekeeping ownership of a customer base, which is even worse.
Well no it’s not. It’s a time tested model that has worked well. It’s monetizing digital purchases, but obviously the entirety of what happened on an iPhone is driven by iOS. Hence the mention.
Yes. Like any responsible governing body, the EU has identified a particularly abusive business practice by one particular corporation and is mandating that said corporation stop with that abusive business practice. That's not "playing Robin Hood", that is doing what governments are supposed to do.
That doesn’t make this legislation good, right or of any value. That is exactly what it is. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc.
This doesn't follow. Apple are free to continue to charge those developers who choose to remain in the Apple app store and who continue to use Apple's distribution and payment services the same commission that they currently charge developers for those services. Given the convenience and customer base currently utilizing that service, it is expected that the majority of developers will continue to use those services. Apple just aren't allowed to force developers to use those services in order to develop software for the iOS platform.
Of course, ignore the part where apps move to alternative platforms and that is lost revenue for apple. Hence “Robin Hood”.
It is a large enough platform that pretty much everyone in the world understands how important it is that developers have access to develop software for it. Continuing to say "...not the only digital platform out there" is simple willful ignorance to a very obvious reality that everyone who has ever owned a phone in their entire life fully understands.
It is still a minority by world wide platform standards. I don’t dispute isn’t not influential though.
Coerce is exactly the right word. "Use our distribution service or allow us to audit your sales and assess an entrance fee based on a convoluted calculation designed to make compliance difficult" is absolutely coercion.
Coerce is the wrong word. Coerce brings to mind someone holding a gun to your head. That’s coercion. Opt-in is the right word here.
 
Huh. I was under the impression that Apple had a single team for malicious compliance, but these new policies keep coming out one after another. Do they have multiple teams for it?

And are they hiring? looks like a good time
 
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