Epic Games Began Planning Antitrust Lawsuit Against Apple Two Years Ago With 'Project Liberty'

[Arsenikdote]

I'm talking about running JavaScript within WKWebView. For example if you place an HTML file with embedded CSS and JavaScript on iCloud drive and try opening it on an iOS device, WKWebView will try previewing it rather than opening it in Safari; which you'd expect the natural behavior to be for an HTML document. And while WKWebView can render HTML and CSS to preview and interact with the document, it cannot render JavaScript hence my response.

You cannot run a server locally on iOS of course, but you can load a website and have some stuff stored in a very limited cache but if it's a webapp then the rules are very sketchy as I mentioned re-service workers.

I have not seen the issue you have pointed out in my own enterprise development. We use javascript to interact with multiple data sources and have no issue. Also it seems that cmaier has a different app that works just fine for him. I am not saying EVERYTHING is possible with HTML apps, native apps have their benefits, but they also have their drawbacks in some cases. We have intentionally chosen to use both in our environment and have over 300 daily users doing thousands of API calls a day with no issue with the HTML app.

 

[Krizoitz]

It's time for the U.S. Gov't, my U.S. Gov't, to force AAPL to spin-off the NON-Game portion of the App Store into a Public Utility, taking a 1% cut for transactions.

🤣🤣🤣

Yeah no. There is no way thats going to happen. Theres no legal precedent for it. Theres no need for it. Its laughable on its face. The AppStore is not remotely a "public utility". Thanks for the laugh.

 

[Krizoitz]

Monopoly vs being desperate is exactly what the courts will be looking at . Apple game is up.

Except Apple isn't a monopoly. Android remains quite popular and available in the US. You can choose to buy an Android phone easily. So no, Apple's "game" is not up, your understanding of the situation is however.

 

[Krizoitz]

I wonder how people would react if Microsoft closed down windows and made it so everything had to be installed through the Microsoft app store. No steam, no epic, no itunes allowed. Only web apps. Would everyone here be pulling for Microsoft?

Depends, is Microsoft a monopoly or not? If not, then, I might think its a bad decision and choose a different platform because of it, but that wouldn't mean I think they should be forced to change by the government. Theres a difference between "I don't like this and I wish they would change" and "I want them to be forced to change". The former is ok, the latter depends on circumstances (monopoly, actually harmful behavior, etc.)

 

[BanjoDudeAhoy]

While I do think that 30% can be too much for a hobbyist or indie dev, I also think that sueing after you willfully and after years of planning breach the terms of a contract doesn’t really make you look too good.

You could argue that with the lawsuit, Epic brought the lower fee for small business about but I honestly believe that this could have been achieved in a different, less shady way as well.

 

[SurferPup]

At Harvard University law classes in the not too distant future, Lecturers will be citing the frivolous law suit of 2021: Epic versus Apple and the next generation of students will be asking Siri, "Who was Epic?"

 

[usagora]

Wow what a completely lopsided post. “...while still taking advantage of apple’s...” ..... no bias here

"taking advantage of" can have both a positive and negative meaning. Here it is positive. It simply means they are utilizing something beneficial to them. That's not the same thing as saying, for example, "You are taking advantage of poor people" which would mean you're exploiting them in an unfair or otherwise unethical way.

 

[m4mario]

iOS and macOS support service workers. You can download and cache content ahead of time within your app's origin, which allows for offline use.

Thanks for pointing it out. Did not know.

 

[pacalis]

Tim Sweeney is a megalomaniacal edgelord alt-right douchebag. He's so far up his own ass that he's probably convinced himself that he really is fighting for "freedom" and "liberty."

Agreed. A good board would never let their CEO do something this ridiculous.

 

[CubeHacker]

I know you can develop for the Mac and bypass the App Store. But isn’t it Apple’s decision on how they monetize the technologies they develop?
And tell me, which has more apps? Mac or iOS? Windows desktop or iOS?
It looks to me that the Apple curated iOS AppStore has helped in iOS gaining more quality apps.

I would argue that there are more apps on iOS, but not necessarily quality apps. Tons of shovel ware, apps loaded with forced advertising after every minute of play, and plenty of useless apps that don't do what they are supposed to. Apple isn't curating much here.

 

[m4mario]

I would argue that there are more apps on iOS, but not necessarily quality apps. Tons of shovel ware, apps loaded with forced advertising after every minute of play, and plenty of useless apps that don't do what they are supposed to. Apple isn't curating much here.

Ya, if you download free apps, that’s how they are. Yes, there are tons of free, low quality apps out there that work based on ads.
what I meant was, when you count the quality apps(mostly paid), iOS wins all other platforms by a large margin in that count.

 

[Arsenikdote]

Not to get all tinfoil hat, but some nation states have a strategic interest in weakening Apple's platform. The cost of the long shot lawsuit is peanuts compared to the chance to cripple Apple.

"In a December 2020 article in Foreign Policy, a former senior official of the Central Intelligence Agency stated that the CIA concluded that Tencent received funding from the Ministry of State Security early on in its foundation."

I am not sure I follow....most people think that Apple is in bed with foreign governments. Apple produces in those countries and their focus on privacy and security prevents the NSA and other entities from intercepting transmissions. What on earth would those people have to gain by taking down Apple? I think the idea that Apple is working with a foreign government is ridiculous and people who think that obviously have never run a company of any size. But to think other nations are against them is even more bizarre to me. Huh.....

I would argue that there are more apps on iOS, but not necessarily quality apps. Tons of shovel ware, apps loaded with forced advertising after every minute of play, and plenty of useless apps that don't do what they are supposed to. Apple isn't curating much here.

I would argue its both. Apple both curates AND allows the filler apps. I don't think it is an either or proposition. I think the better question is more along these lines....

Back before the App Store launched, what did it look like to get software to fill a need? Shopping at stores, trying to find websites that maybe reviewed a bunch of disparate apps that acted like they solved a need...point is while it "worked" for the day, it is no where near what it is like today.

Today you can find an app for most anything you could dream of. We have now been spoiled to worry about the app not doing every little thing we want it to, when before we would have been happy just to find an app we feel we didn't wast $59.99 on.

So yeah, there is a bunch of junk in the App Store, absolutely! But there are also hundreds?....thousands? of useful apps now that are changing the way we interact with software. And there are certainly more of these quality apps on the Apple ecosystem than on Android.

Not sure I can go as far as to argue that all the way to the Windows operating system however....LOL

 

[Nephster]

I am not sure I follow....most people think that Apple is in bed with foreign governments. Apple produces in those countries and their focus on privacy and security prevents the NSA and other entities from intercepting transmissions. What on earth would those people have to gain by taking down Apple? I think the idea that Apple is working with a foreign government is ridiculous and people who think that obviously have never run a company of any size. But to think other nations are against them is even more bizarre to me. Huh.....

As you say, control is a priority for the Chinese and hand in hand with that is economic dominance. China targets a industry by orchestrating technology transfers and weakening the non-Chinese competitors through espionage, subsidies, and basically any lever they can pull legal/illegal, fair or not. Anything to get the production in China, then monetize it and leverage soft power with it later.

If they can weaken Apple's value proposition, essentially breaking the walled garden, using the US legal system, that is a long run win for Chinese handset makers as Apple will then have the same morass of security and compatibility issues associated with more open app stores. I am simply raising the possibility that the lawsuit is best understood in the broader strategic context. Epic/Tencent knows it is a long shot, but to weaken Apple would support Chinese strategic economic goals. In this context, lawyers are cheap and they probably get points with the CCP leadership for doing it.

 

[demodave]

Article Link: Epic Games Began Planning Antitrust Lawsuit Against Apple Two Years Ago With 'Project Liberty'

Really? What a waste of time and money.

whoever didn’t say “this is stupid” should be fired.

 

[quarkysg]

As you say, control is a priority for the Chinese and hand in hand with that is economic dominance. China targets a industry by orchestrating technology transfers and weakening the non-Chinese competitors through espionage, subsidies, and basically any lever they can pull legal/illegal, fair or not. Anything to get the production in China, then monetize it and leverage soft power with it later.

A bit thick on the conspiracy theory front? Isn’t this true for all government in power?

Besides you cannot force a cow to drink if it doesn’t want to right?

 

[31 Flavas]

I so hope Apple loses so I can finally install non Tim Apple approved apps without having to worry about Apple randomly pulling the dev’s certificate.

Why aren't you using Android then?

 

[I7guy]

You're completely wrong here. Online games require servers that are an ongoing expense and must be paid for. Apple has zero involvement in maintaining Amazon's AWS servers or even the development tools used for those servers. Games like fortnite sell items in the game to fund those servers. The stuff being purchased exists in the cloud, not on the device. There's no reason Apple should get a 30% cut of money that is going to AWS.

I suppose you also think when you rent a movie, Apple should get 30% of the proceeds because of all of their involvement in creating that movie?

The 30% is the commission for hosting and management that one agrees to when the become a dev for $99. Simple. Don’t like the fee, don’t sign up.

 

[31 Flavas]

So buy an iPhone or an android? The consumer only has two options? Google is also being sued, so Epic is clearly saying that there is a monopoly in the smartphone App Store market, not the console market. Plus, consoles like the Nintendo switch are solely gaming devices and don’t event have a browser, whereas the iPhone can do much more than gaming and has a browser. I think it is baffling that a consumer is fine with giving up the right to browser downloads of apps or being fully informed about other methods of payment other than in-app purchases, as it should be the consumers choice! Macs do just fine with security by allowing browser downloads and other payment methods.

Both, Sony and Xbox both have web browsers on the current and past consoles. Even Nintendo's Wii and Wii U systems had a web browser you could use. So, since Xbox and Playstation both have web browsers - going on your logic - Why should Xbox or Playstation consumers be fine with giving up browser downloads of games or apps? I've read Epic's excuse - but, that's self-serving because they're covering their a$$... If they purposefully hot fixed in 3rd party payments into Microsoft, Sony, and Nintendo games, then sued and attacked them, they'd also get booted there too. But, that action should just be even further and even more justification illegal "market" monopolization of their respective hardware exists -- just like Epic's claim(s) against Apple's own monopolization of their hardware.

 

[Abazigal]

So buy an iPhone or an android? The consumer only has two options? Google is also being sued, so Epic is clearly saying that there is a monopoly in the smartphone App Store market, not the console market. Plus, consoles like the Nintendo switch are solely gaming devices and don’t event have a browser, whereas the iPhone can do much more than gaming and has a browser. I think it is baffling that a consumer is fine with giving up the right to browser downloads of apps or being fully informed about other methods of payment other than in-app purchases, as it should be the consumers choice! Macs do just fine with security by allowing browser downloads and other payment methods.

I find that responses like this are indicative of one larger overarching issue.

Nobody can really define just what a computer is and isn't.

Here, you are arguing that an iPhone is a computer because it has a browser. Yet in another thread, people are arguing that an iPad isn't a computer because you can't code on it (and the iPad and iPhone run pretty much the same hardware and software). Heck, the playstation has specs that could rival any low end computer. Sony just chooses to limit what people can do on a playstation console and market it as being specifically for gaming and entertainment. Why shouldn't I be able to run Excel on my console?

Some people make the argument that stores like Playstation are entitled to collect a commission on games they sell because they sell their console at a loss. To which I respond - so what? That's a choice. Just like it is a choice by Apple to sell their hardware at a handsome profit, and I don't see why that in any way makes it illegal for them to collect a 30% cut from developers, or sell other accompanying accessories and services at a profit as well. It just means that Apple is good at what they do.

Last I checked, I can't exactly side load games onto my Nintendo Switch either, so I think it's BS that Epic has this double standard where they are specifically attacking Apple while leaving the consoles alone.

Apple has never marketed the iPhone as a computer, and just because it is supposedly indispensable to modern life doesn't make it one either.

My question still stands. What makes a "general purpose computer"? Is it the hardware? Is it the OS? Is it something else? I do not deny that smartphones are nifty. In my world, that doesn't automatically make them "general purpose computers" that need to be held to a different standard compared to consoles.

 

[Nephster]

A bit thick on the conspiracy theory front? Isn’t this true for all government in power?

Besides you cannot force a cow to drink if it doesn’t want to right?

These positions put forward in the same line are mutually exclusive, If you want to be taken seriously you have pick one or the other. It can't be both "crazy talk" and "everyone does it".

 

[amartinez1660]

Wait, so Epic's decision when their revenue is declining is to hire lawyers and PR firms to bite Apple and Google? And they literally planned to break the ToS through a hot fix?

Do people still want to side with Epic?

true all that.
To not beat the Epic bush even more, I’m just gonna emphasize the point that it is possible to hire firms and lawyers, you know, those upholding citizens of the law that swear to protect it and play fair and all those good things, to break established contracts and who knows, for sure nastier illegal things. It’s like hiring a Doctor for killing instead of healing.

And? There’s nothing unprecedented or illegal about that. iOS isn’t a market, smartphones and devices are. The only way to get digital games on the Xbox is through Microsoft’s store. The only way to get them on PlayStation is through Sony’s store. Want to sell your game for Nintendo, Microsoft or Sony’s platform? You have to get their approval and follow their rules. Since none of them have a monopoly the consumer can choose which platform or platforms they want to engage with. Same with smartphones. Apple offers one approach, Google a different one. Consumers can choose which one they like. If you don’t like Apple walled garden model it’s really really easy to not buy an iPhone.

I don’t get how you managed to get downvotes on such a rational take... nevertheless, well said.

 

[quarkysg]

These positions put forward in the same line are mutually exclusive, If you want to be taken seriously you have pick one or the other. It can't be both "crazy talk" and "everyone does it".

I guess my response is vague.

My conspiracy theory is in response to blaming China for intentionally targeting the West.

My government response is to state my opinion that all government in power aims to build a lead in economic powers So as to improve the lives of their citizens.

And finally the cow analogy is to state my opinion in that if companies do not find it attractive to invest in a country, and in this case, the discussion is on China, it doesn’t matter what China do to attract FDIs, nobody will invest.

 

[Krizoitz]

I don’t get how you managed to get downvotes on such a rational take... nevertheless, well said.

Some people seem to have an irrational belief that their personal preference for how they'd LIKE the AppStore/iPhone to be handled and what should be required are the same thing. What can ya do? Thanks for the compliment

 

[Blowback]

Tim Sweeney must know something that we don't. It looks like a clear cut case for Apple winning but you don't fight a war unless you think you can win it. I'm sure Sun Tzu said something like that in The Art of War.
Perhaps Apple throwing the towel in with Qualcomm was his inspiration, but then Qualcomm had Intel's ineptitude to help them.

Tell that to the (many) who have decided to fight two-front wars throughout history....there is always a loser and quite often it is the original instigator of hostilities. But the Great Mike Tyson summed it up best: 'Everyone has a plan...until that first punch to the face'.....

 

[Blowback]

And? There’s nothing unprecedented or illegal about that. iOS isn’t a market, smartphones and devices are. The only way to get digital games on the Xbox is through Microsoft’s store. The only way to get them on PlayStation is through Sony’s store. Want to sell your game for Nintendo, Microsoft or Sony’s platform? You have to get their approval and follow their rules. Since none of them have a monopoly the consumer can choose which platform or platforms they want to engage with. Same with smartphones. Apple offers one approach, Google a different one. Consumers can choose which one they like. If you don’t like Apple walled garden model it’s really really easy to not buy an iPhone.

Krizoitz: Agree with you. Much of this, on and off of this forum, is another example of the 'power' of the MSM to determine for people their 'issues' and 'foes'...add in that once you are seen as 'filthy Rich' its all but another strike against (esp. in Texas!) and all of this is nothing new under the sun. Compared to all of the jobs/wealth/ new 'private companies (read: at home gig work) that Apple has created...etc....while at least 'trying' to do good (unlike FB and others)...well...'par for the course'. I have lived long enough to almost expect no less...