Epic Games Expands Fortnite Legal Dispute With Apple to the UK

[theotherphil]

That's fine, no one is saying get rid of the App Store or that anything changes for you. But if you own a device, you should be able to freely install an app on it without having to go through the App Store. This system obviously works perfectly fine, as demonstrated by the laptops/desktops. Apple and software companies compete in a free market, and consumer choice wins.

The free market can choose the Single App Store of the iOS ecosystem or the more open Android compatibles. There’s great choices out there. What you are arguing for is to remove my choice for an ecosystem with a single App Store. This is one of the things that differentiates Apple from it’s competitors.

I choose the iOS ecosystem exactly because of the single App Store. A single, trusted entity with my credit card details. A single point of contact for all of my subscriptions. A very narrow attack surface area for hackers and a company with the resources and motivation to keep my data safe.

I do not want to go to an epic store for their games and give them my CC details.
I do not want to go to a MS store for my Office software and then give them my CC details.
I do not want to go to an Adobe Store and give them my CC details.
I do not want an Affinity store and give them my details.
I do not want an Activision store and give them my details.
I do not want an EA store and give them my details.
Etc, etc, etc.

You say that I could continue to use the Apple App Store and nothing would change for me but you fail to consider that these companies will not be releasing their app on the Apple Store when they have their own stores.

It will turn into the Wild West of poor user experience and large attack surface area for hackers. I would then have to change my CC/ personal details with every store for any change in my circumstances. There will be multiple privacy policies etc etc. This is exactly the problem that iOS fixes and just because it has always been different on desktop, doesn’t mean we should embrace the suck on mobile.

NO THANK YOU!

With Apple moving to their own Silicon and making it easier to target Mac and iOS at the same time, it will likely mean more devs will choose to put their desktop apps on the Mac App Store and we’ll move away from the terrible model of going to a random webpage, giving them all your personal details and downloading a potentially dangerous piece of malware.

 

[FrankieTDouglas]

The free market can choose the Single App Store of the iOS ecosystem or the more open Android compatibles. There’s great choices out there. What you are arguing for is to remove my choice for an ecosystem with a single App Store. This is one of the things that differentiates Apple from it’s competitors.

I choose the iOS ecosystem exactly because of the single App Store. A single, trusted entity with my credit card details. A single point of contact for all of my subscriptions. A very narrow attack surface area for hackers and a company with the resources and motivation to keep my data safe.

I do not want to go to an epic store for their games and give them my CC details.
I do not want to go to a MS store for my Office software and then give them my CC details.
I do not want to go to an Adobe Store and give them my CC details.
I do not want an Affinity store and give them my details.
I do not want an Activision store and give them my details.
I do not want an EA store and give them my details.
Etc, etc, etc.

You say that I could continue to use the Apple App Store and nothing would change for me but you fail to consider that these companies will not be releasing their app on the Apple Store when they have their own stores.

It will turn into the Wild West of poor user experience and large attack surface area for hackers. I would then have to change my CC/ personal details with every store for any change in my circumstances. There will be multiple privacy policies etc etc. This is exactly the problem that iOS fixes and just because it has always been different on desktop, doesn’t mean we should embrace the suck on mobile.

NO THANK YOU!

With Apple moving to their own Silicon and making it easier to target Mac and iOS at the same time, it will likely mean more devs will choose to put their desktop apps on the Mac App Store and we’ll move away from the terrible model of going to a random webpage, giving them all your personal details and downloading a potentially dangerous piece of malware.

Speaking of Apple moving to their own silicon...

macOS beta code suggests Apple will block users from sideloading unsupported iOS apps on M1 Macs [U] - 9to5Mac

Apple today released the second beta of iOS 14.4 and macOS Big Sur 11.2 for developers — and although the...

9to5mac.com

This system is also potentially being used as an opportunity to block "sideloading" on your desktop, too.

 

[hot-gril]

Well that’s not true if the App Store wants to operate in the U.K. it has to follow English law. For example many apps have the protection of the US first amendment were as our hate laws are different and they cannot operate in the British App Store.

Yes, but the UK alone probably doesn't have enough clout to change Apple's ways. There is the option of Apple pulling out. I didn't mean to suggest it has to do with where Apple is headquartered. Maybe that matters somehow, but I don't know.

 

[theotherphil]

Speaking of Apple moving to their own silicon...

macOS beta code suggests Apple will block users from sideloading unsupported iOS apps on M1 Macs [U] - 9to5Mac

Apple today released the second beta of iOS 14.4 and macOS Big Sur 11.2 for developers — and although the...

9to5mac.com

This system is also potentially being used as an opportunity to block "sideloading" on your desktop, too.

Did you even read the article? Apple will block side loading of iOS apps on MacOS where the developer has indicated that it is not to be ran on MacOS.

An example of this will be when a developer has 2 seperate apps, one for iOS and one for MacOS. The developer will then indicate that the iOS version is not to be ran on the Mac and the MacOS version should be used instead.

Apple have clearly indicated, not only in WWDC but in multiple interviews afterwards, that you will continue to be able to install apps from outside the App Store on Mac. I just think it’ll be easier for devs not to in future.

Sounds reasonable to me.

 

[hot-gril]

You say that I could continue to use the Apple App Store and nothing would change for me but you fail to consider that these companies will not be releasing their app on the Apple Store when they have their own stores.

This is exactly what happened with PC games. For a while they were all on Steam, then everyone started making exclusive stores, not even because Steam got greedy. Same with TV/movie streaming moving from Netflix.

 

[garylapointe]

The fact that the Epic Games MacOS storefront is so poor hasn't been brought up, just blows my mind.

Most of the items at the front of the store aren't even for MacOS Games (you can't even tell and I think it's only a coincidence if it happens to be MacOS compatible).

The MacOS section is severely lacking, I don't mean lacking in games (which it is), I mean all the MacOS games are not properly tagged as MacOS! When clicking on a Mac/Windows app, the Mac requirements should be the table selected by default on a Mac...

There isn't any reason for PC games to be in there at all, but I'd be okay with it as long as MacOS (and hybrids) are presented upfront. I actually don't know if there are any MacOS only games in there.

 

[Naraxus]

I do not want to go to an epic store for their games and give them my CC details.
I do not want to go to a MS store for my Office software and then give them my CC details.
I do not want to go to an Adobe Store and give them my CC details.
I do not want an Affinity store and give them my details.
I do not want an Activision store and give them my details.
I do not want an EA store and give them my details.
Etc, etc, etc

Ok then you don't have to. Problem solved.

You say that I could continue to use the Apple App Store and nothing would change for me but you fail to consider that these companies will not be releasing their app on the Apple Store when they have their own stores.

It will turn into the Wild West of poor user experience and large attack surface area for hackers. I would then have to change my CC/ personal details with every store for any change in my circumstances. There will be multiple privacy policies etc etc. This is exactly the problem that iOS fixes and just because it has always been different on desktop, doesn’t mean we should embrace the suck on mobile.

Welcome to the free market at work. If they don't want to release it on a given store then why should they be forced to do so? I'm not sure if you know this or not but software distribution's been done this way on the desktop for decades with little issues so your "Chicken Little" argument falls flat.

 

[JKAussieSkater]

This whole debate is entirely about the “should be possible”. This question is the highest relevance.

Also, since Terms of Service are non-negotiable, the people depend on the government to determine if such terms are fair and beneficial, in case they need to be legally overruled.

Declining the TOS on the basis of “I can buy or make a different phone if I don’t agree to these handcuffs” is essentially a non-negotiable contract, and needs further moderation from the government.

Whether that "should" be possible is irrelevant. When you buy an iOS device or use the App Store you are required to accept or decline the terms of service, and there is nothing illegal about Apple requiring people to abide by the terms they agree to.

 

[wubsylol]

"If at first you don't succeed..."

Keep trying and failing.

 

[Mac4Brains]

Apple needed to clamp down on another issue they faced back in 2012/14 with the apps store. At the time kids were charging for power-ups in the games and the parents suddenly received $500 to $5000 bills. So, Apple needed to funnel all of the charges threw them so they can spot and cap issues like that. Epic games just wants to go back to a time where they can charge parents outrages prices that hedge into the thousands.

 

[Tech198]

Once your proud of something, you just gotta keep going. Epic doesn't wanna admit defeat.

 

[DaveN]

"puggsly" made this comment on a similar story on 9to5mac. I thought the comment was, well, epic.

"Please allow me to create in game skins and weapons that I can sell to your players through my own store. Your monopolistic power that allows you to be the sole creator of these in game items is unacceptable."

 

[Alan Wynn]

The free market can choose the Single App Store of the iOS ecosystem or the more open Android compatibles. There’s great choices out there. What you are arguing for is to remove my choice for an ecosystem with a single App Store. This is one of the things that differentiates Apple from it’s competitors.

This exactly!

I choose the iOS ecosystem exactly because of the single App Store. A single, trusted entity with my credit card details. A single point of contact for all of my subscriptions. A very narrow attack surface area for hackers and a company with the resources and motivation to keep my data safe.

It also saves me time and hassle not needing to create a new account for each of a million different stores.

I do not want to go to an epic store for their games and give them my CC details.
I do not want to go to a MS store for my Office software and then give them my CC details.
I do not want to go to an Adobe Store and give them my CC details.
I do not want an Affinity store and give them my details.
I do not want an Activision store and give them my details.
I do not want an EA store and give them my details.
Etc, etc, etc.

Nor do I want to live with their privacy policies.

You say that I could continue to use the Apple App Store and nothing would change for me but you fail to consider that these companies will not be releasing their app on the Apple Store when they have their own stores.

This exactly.

What those on the other side fail to understand is that not only will this go away for those of us that want the single store experience, but that even the positive things they like about the store will go away for them. It is not just that they will be able to buy porn apps for their iPhones, but all the security and privacy protections will go away. Facebook has made it clear that they do not want to abide by these policies, but they have no choice. If Apple were forced to let them have their own store, you can be sure they would have no spying limits and their apps as well as those from other who chafe under these restrictions will only be available there.

It will turn into the Wild West of poor user experience and large attack surface area for hackers. I would then have to change my CC/ personal details with every store for any change in my circumstances. There will be multiple privacy policies etc etc. This is exactly the problem that iOS fixes and just because it has always been different on desktop, doesn’t mean we should embrace the suck on mobile.

Completely agree.

With Apple moving to their own Silicon and making it easier to target Mac and iOS at the same time, it will likely mean more devs will choose to put their desktop apps on the Mac App Store and we’ll move away from the terrible model of going to a random webpage, giving them all your personal details and downloading a potentially dangerous piece of malware.

Exactly!

 

[Alan Wynn]

Welcome to the free market at work.

Sorry, we are in a free market now. No one is forced to buy an iOS device. No company is forced to release a product into the App Store. What you want is a regulated market eliminating my preferred option.

If they don't want to release it on a given store then why should they be forced to do so?

No one forces them to release into the App Store. However, if they want access to those customers who have chosen this option, they can decide to do so. Android’s market share is much larger than that of iOS and yet developers make much more money in the App Store. This is due in a large part thanks to Apple’s policies.

I'm not sure if you know this or not but software distribution's been done this way on the desktop for decades with little issues so your "Chicken Little" argument falls flat.

I am not sure if you know this or not, but piracy, viruses, and malware have been issues on the desktop (as well as on Android) for years, so your argument that ignores that falls flat.

 

[Alan Wynn]

Speaking of Apple moving to their own silicon...

macOS beta code suggests Apple will block users from sideloading unsupported iOS apps on M1 Macs [U] - 9to5Mac

Apple today released the second beta of iOS 14.4 and macOS Big Sur 11.2 for developers — and although the...

9to5mac.com

This system is also potentially being used as an opportunity to block "sideloading" on your desktop, too.

“Side Loading unsupported apps” is just another way of saying “piracy.” The content owner has not licensed you to run their app on macOS for whatever reason and Apple should do everything they can to enforce that license agreement.

 

[Alan Wynn]

Declining the TOS on the basis of “I can buy or make a different phone if I don’t agree to these handcuffs” is essentially a non-negotiable contract, and needs further moderation from the government.

One does not need to make a different phone, one just needs to buy the dominant platform (Android) that already supports this choice. There is a free market and if people do not like Apple’s restrictions, they should feel free to vote with their money for a different set of choices. No one is forced to buy Apple devices. In no country are they the majority share.

 

[hot-gril]

Ok then you don't have to. Problem solved.



Welcome to the free market at work. If they don't want to release it on a given store then why should they be forced to do so? I'm not sure if you know this or not but software distribution's been done this way on the desktop for decades with little issues so your "Chicken Little" argument falls flat.

Free market means Apple runs the store the way they want.

 

[Naraxus]

Sorry, we are in a free market now. No one is forced to buy an iOS device. No company is forced to release a product into the App Store. What you want is a regulated market eliminating my preferred option.

No one forces them to release into the App Store. However, if they want access to those customers who have chosen this option, they can decide to do so. Android’s market share is much larger than that of iOS and yet developers make much more money in the App Store. This is due in a large part thanks to Apple’s policies.

I am not sure if you know this or not, but piracy, viruses, and malware have been issues on the desktop (as well as on Android) for years, so your argument that ignores that falls flat.

What I want is the OPTION to install what I want, from WHEREVER I want, on MY devices. You can still get your apps through the App Store if you wish. Ain't nothing stopping you. If a developer decides it doesn't want to go through Apple then oh well. That's how the free market works.

 

[Naraxus]

Free market means Apple runs the store the way they want.

No. That is most certainly NOT what a free market means.

 

[hot-gril]

No. That is most certainly NOT what a free market means.

Unless Apple is the government, it is. They're private.

 

[BuffaloTF]

No. That is most certainly NOT what a free market means.

It’s actually exactly what it means. If a government were to step in and dictate market terms to Apple... that’s regulation. That’s stepping away from a free market.

And by the way... “iOS” isn’t a relevant market. Smartphones are. And there’s many other choices within that market if you’d like to exercise your individual consumer rights within the free market.

 

[Alan Wynn]

What I want is the OPTION to install what I want, from WHEREVER I want, on MY devices. You can still get your apps through the App Store if you wish. Ain't nothing stopping you. If a developer decides it doesn't want to go through Apple then oh well. That's how the free market works.

The current situation is a free market. You do not want a free market, you want one that is regulated in a way that benefits you and hurts everyone who wants what Apple is offering. If you do not like what Apple offers, do not buy it. Stop trying to ruin everyone’s else’s choice. There is a platform that offers the experience you want. It is the market share leader and is offered by many phone manufacturers. It is called Android.

 

[Alan Wynn]

No. That is most certainly NOT what a free market means.

It is Apple’s store. No one forces you to buy Apple’s products, and no one forces developers to sell their software on iOS/iPadOS/tvOS/WatchOS. If you (and/or they) do not like Apple’s rules, do not purchase their products. If enough people agree with you, Apple will stop being profitable and will have to change. You oppose letting the market decide and want the government to force your preference on everyone.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Apple needed to clamp down on another issue they faced back in 2012/14 with the apps store. At the time kids were charging for power-ups in the games and the parents suddenly received $500 to $5000 bills. So, Apple needed to funnel all of the charges threw them so they can spot and cap issues like that. Epic games just wants to go back to a time where they can charge parents outrages prices that hedge into the thousands.

Ohhhhhhhh, you know what, this makes a LOT of sense

 

[Unregistered 4U]

The current situation is a free market. You do not want a free market, you want one that is regulated in a way that benefits you and hurts everyone who wants what Apple is offering.

Pretty much this right here. I want a free market, but the free market is choosing an iPhone that’s JUST the way it is. So now I DON’T want a free market because the market doesn’t want what I want!!