Epic Games Loses Again in Battle With Apple Over App Store Rules

[Mrkevinfinnerty]

Sounds like you don't like that ecosystem and should not move in. Sounds like you should do research beforehand and live in the Android ecosystem.

I did my research and I enjoy 1 app store for everything I need on my phone. So I moved into iOS.

You will still be able to do that when regulators have finished opening iOS up

 

[Detnator]

You will still be able to do that when regulators have finished opening iOS up

No. We won’t. And it’s been explained countless times why.

Developers of some apps we want or need will move out of the Apple App Store and we won’t have a choice if we want or need those apps still.

They will do so so that they are no longer required to conform to things that protect users from user-unfriendly developer practices, like ATT, and so user experience will suffer.

 

[Detnator]

That‘s the equivalent of saying „get divorced, if you don’t like it“ to every single instance someone tells you of his small marital problems.

Meanwhile this new approach is like saying “make the courts change your spouse if you don’t like it” to someone’s marital problems.

 

[Mrkevinfinnerty]

No. We won’t. And it’s been explained countless times why.

Developers of some apps we want or need will move out of the Apple App Store and we won’t have a choice if we want or need those apps still.

They will do so so that they are no longer required to conform to things that protect users from user-unfriendly developer practices, like ATT, and so user experience will suffer.

You can then choose to not use those apps, same way people in this thread keep telling people to switch to Android if they want choice.

ATT is a useless anyway, sorry its a marketing tool.

 

[Detnator]

You can then choose to not use those apps, same way people in this thread keep telling people to switch to Android if they want choice.

ATT is a useless anyway, sorry its a marketing tool.

No. It’s not the same. I chose the Apple platform because of the walled garden. Apple = walled garden. Android = free for all. That’s the choice. That’s the free market working. Regulators forcing Apple to become like Android takes that choice away from those that WANT the walled garden. It puts power back in developers hands away from users.

And ATT is not useless. Nor is it the only thing I will lose.

 

[Mrkevinfinnerty]

No. It’s not the same. I chose the Apple platform because of the walled garden. Apple = walled garden. Android = free for all. That’s the choice. That’s the free market working. Regulators forcing Apple to become like Android takes that choice away from those that WANT the walled garden. It puts power back in developers hands away from users.

And ATT is not useless. Nor is it the only thing I will lose.

So...

Apple dictating to other companies how they interact with their own customers = good

Government telling Apple how to interact with their own customers = bad

You can still have your walled garden, nobody is forced to 'sideload' anything on either platform

Developers can have the choice of selling their software in Apples App Store on not. That is the free market working.

 

[tripsync]

You will still be able to do that when regulators have finished opening iOS up

research says there will not be a viable closed, end to end curated mobile platform in EU.

now what?

 

[Abazigal]

The eco-system is a closed monopoly and at odds with a market economy. You know, like the one you live in.

Your argument is one in defence of the kind of country I’m sure you wouldn’t like to live in.

Or maybe you would? Then at least you’d be away from the rest of us.

One’s preference of a computing platform has no correlation with what sort of political system they would rather live under.

What the EU is doing here is pure protectionism, plain and simple. They believe it will benefit small businesses (and they deem this a priority because Apple and Google are American companies, and their political system is simply not conducive for the creation of tech giants because it’s way too regulated), and I feel it’s perfectly fine to acknowledge that end users will ultimately come out on the losing end of this, because the DMA was never designed with our benefit in mind.

Woman who scanned QR code with malware lost $20k to bubble tea survey scam while she was sleeping

Downloading apps from dubious sites that can lead to malware being installed onto victims’ mobile phones. Read more at straitstimes.com. Read more at straitstimes.com.

www.straitstimes.com

Kaspersky’s Mr Yeo said Android operating system software is open source, allowing anyone to modify it.

He added: “This makes it easier for hackers to discover and exploit security vulnerabilities in the software in case of developer mistakes. In turn, this results in malicious apps finding their way onto Android devices easily, increasing the susceptibility of Android users to attacks.”

On the other hand, he said, iPhone users are less susceptible to malware scams via apps as iOS users can download apps only from the Apple App Store, which has stringent guidelines for app developers. This ensures only legitimate and secure apps are available to users.

 

[Mrkevinfinnerty]

research says there will not be a viable closed, end to end curated mobile platform in EU.

now what?

'Curate' it yourself?

 

[AppliedMicro]

I did my research

So did I.

I prefer iOS - despite it having only one App Store. So do most other consumers…

Apple = walled garden. Android = free for all. That’s the choice

Smartphones aren’t bought due to the number of available app stores or sources of apps.

Developers of some apps we want or need will move out of the Apple App Store and we won’t have a choice if we want or need those apps still.

If needing one App and having and being forced to install one app from one source is an issue of lack of choice, what‘s having to install all apps from one single choice? And even greater lack of choice.

research says there will not be a viable closed, end to end curated mobile platform in EU.

You are still free to use your mobile platform end-to-end curated.

What the EU is doing here is pure protectionism, plain and simple

No, it’s not.
Quite the opposite.

The EU isn’t restricting trade - Apple is acting protectionist.
And the EU is curbing Apple’s protectionist practices by mandating free(er) trade.

 

[tripsync]

So did I.

I prefer iOS - despite it having only one App Store. So do most other consumers…

And?

I prefer cheap Echo hardware but want to install Google Assistant.

I prefer Tesla, but would like to install Android Auto and Apple CarPlay to see how well it works.

I prefer Xbox but sometimes I want to install some Playstation games on it.

I prefer XYZ platform, but ABC platform has 123.

You're telling me we should create a law to force companies to do all of those things? If so, you have no idea how fast Amazon is going to pull their hardware from the market (or at least jack up the prices of all the devices considering Amazon loses money from selling the device). That's just one of many consequences.

Smartphones aren’t bought due to the number of available app stores or sources of apps.

Subjective and anecdotal. Plenty buy iPhones because the fact it's 1 store and because of Apple's strict guidelines. Overall quality of apps are higher than Android which makes iPhone a better choice for many.

If needing one App and having and being forced to install one app from one source is an issue of lack of choice, what‘s having to install all apps from one single choice? And even greater lack of choice.

What? This is some crazy mental gymnastics. You have a choice of buying Android if you need multiple sources of apps. And you have a choice of buying iOS if you just want a device where every app available through one source.

If "install all apps from one single choice" is something you don't like, you can choose Android. See how that works?

You are still free to use your mobile platform end-to-end curated.

No. Work requires XYZ app. XYZ moved out from App Store to iOS Microsoft Store.

 

[tripsync]

'Curate' it yourself?

then the statement "I did my research and I enjoy 1 app store for everything I need on my phone" is no longer true, making the statement "You will still be able to do that when regulators have finished opening iOS up" false.

 

[Mrkevinfinnerty]

then the statement "I did my research and I enjoy 1 app store for everything I need on my phone" is no longer true, making the statement "You will still be able to do that when regulators have finished opening iOS up" false.

By 'curate' it yourself I meant don't install anything that isn't from the app store. You will still be able to do that. Thats your choice.

 

[tripsync]

By 'curate' it yourself I meant don't install anything that isn't from the app store. You will still be able to do that. Thats your choice.

re-read. "1 app store for everything I need on my phone"

if that one thing i need leaves the app store for another store, i will not have everything I need from 1 app store.

this new law changes the product i did research on after i bought and invested into it.

 

[AppliedMicro]

And?

Well, government regulation may work in my favour and enable simple installation of apps from other sources on iOS.

You're telling me we should create a law to force companies to do all of those things?

No - I’m telling you it may be a good idea in cases where a company has created a dominant platform that other businesses can’t ignore - and leverage that platform power anticompetitively.

Plenty buy iPhones because the fact it's 1 store and because of Apple's strict guidelines.

Subjective and anecdotal.

You have a choice of buying Android if you need multiple sources of apps. And you have a choice of buying iOS if you just want a device where every app available through one source.

And you have a choice of only using apps curated by and downloaded from Apple - to continue using your end-to-end curated ecosystem.

If "install all apps from one single choice" is something you don't like, you can choose Android. See how that works?

My work and family require iOS (irrespective of how many app stores or sideloading exists for it).

So I can‘t just choose Android - just as you supposedly can’t choose anything else than „XYZ app“ from Microsoft. See how that works?

 

[AppliedMicro]

re-read. "1 app store for everything I need on my phone"

There never was, is or will be a guarantee that you can get „everything you need“ from one single app store. As you‘ve done your research before purchasing your iPhone, you surely know that.

On the one hand, developers aren’t legally obliged to develop, publish or update what you need in Apple‘s App Store. A Company can pull the XYZ app you need from the App Store anytime or discontinue it.

On the other hand, Apple can, at their sole discretion, prevent you from being able to get everything you need by just disallowing and app from their App Store. Even if the only reason is that they don’t like an app or it would compete with their own offerings (e.g. game streaming apps competing with their own gaming revenue).

if that one thing i need leaves the app store for another store, i will not have everything I need from 1 app store.

Maybe you should reconsider what you need then.

Same as you (and that doesn’t mean only you personally) are telling all the people referring them „buy Android instead“. They may not be able to get what they need on Android, even though it’s available on iOS.

 

[Snahbah]

I didn’t elect these people yet their actions will impact me and my family directly.

The balance should be in consumers favour, not in developers favour.

That's called democracy - you're welcome to join in.

 

[tripsync]

Well, government regulation may work in my favour and enable simple installation of apps from other sources on iOS.

And it may work against the user, forcing users to work through complex stores just to recover their failed workflow because apps left the store.

No - I’m telling you it may be a good idea in cases where a company has created a dominant platform that other businesses can’t ignore - and leverage that platform power anticompetitively.

1. Android is the dominant platform in terms of marketshare.
2. Web is a viable option on iOS, especially when Apple just released push notification support. Apple has no control over the content of what is released on the web.

Businesses have options. They just don't want to go that route. There is nothing to suggest that businesses must develop for the App Store on iOS.

Subjective and anecdotal.

Glad you understand how dumb it is to provide subjective and anecdotal evidence like "Smartphones aren’t bought due to the number of available app stores or sources of apps.". That was the point.

And you have a choice of only using apps curated by and downloaded from Apple - to continue using your end-to-end curated ecosystem.

Not when I already did my research and invested in the device and apps that are currently available from Apple, no.

My work and family require iOS (irrespective of how many app stores or sideloading exists for it).

So I can‘t just choose Android - just as you supposedly can’t choose anything else than „XYZ app“ from Microsoft. See how that works?

Your family chose iOS so that's irrelevant. And you are doing your work on iOS currently, right? Nothing is stopping your work full stop at the moment, so there's not really an issue.

And my work requires XYZ apps from App Store. So if those leave the App Store, what choice do I have if work still requires it? Currently you and I can do our work on iOS, but this change suddenly makes it where you can do your work in your preferred way while I can't work without being forced to install something new. See how that works?

 

[tripsync]

There never was, is or will be a guarantee that you can get „everything you need“ from one single app store. As you‘ve done your research before purchasing your iPhone, you surely know that.

Wrong, I have everything **I** need from Apple's App Store at this point in time. Can that change? Sure. If it was because Apple decided to do something out of their own greed, then I'll happily move over to Android because Apple no longer was building products for what **I** need. Now if it was because of gov intervention, then I have a problem with that.

On the one hand, developers aren’t legally obliged to develop, publish or update what you need in Apple‘s App Store. A Company can pull the XYZ app you need from the App Store anytime or discontinue it.

On the other hand, Apple can, at their sole discretion, prevent you from being able to get everything you need by just disallowing and app from their App Store. Even if the only reason is that they don’t like an app or it would compete with their own offerings (e.g. game streaming apps competing with their own gaming revenue).

Big difference between Apple and/or app developers doing something that prevent my needs and the government doing something that prevent my needs.

Apple can suddenly stop serving me my iCloud data and I'll be fine with that because that's my fault for trusting Apple to not play with my data and I'll just move to Android like how capitalism is supposed to work. However, people like you complained to the gov, and the gov is forcing their hand onto Apple's products. It's not my fault for trusting Apple and it's certainly not Apple's fault. It's the government's fault for being unreasonable. I then have move on to Android at no fault of my own or Apple's fault and that I have an issue with.

You're suddenly ignoring the government from the picture.

Maybe you should reconsider what you need then.

My needs are currently met because I did my research and bought what I needed. Your demands however are interfering with my needs through government intervention and it's affecting what I already purchased and invested in. That's the problem.

 

[AppliedMicro]

And it may work against the user, forcing users to work through complex stores just to recover their failed workflow because apps left the store

The market will take care of these consumer-unfriendly app stores.
Especially if there’s a first-tier alternative that’s supposedly more consumer-friendly.

While we‘re at it, Apple’s monopoly on App Stores has already worked against me, the user. Why is there no single one-tap button or method (as it used to be!) at the bottom of the App Store app to get an overview at updateable apps in their App Store app anymore? Because Apple decided they‘d need shoving down their bloody „Arcade“ offering down user‘s throats. And they can get away with it because there’s no competition.

1. Android is the dominant platform in terms of marketshare.

And Apple’s iOS and App Store, once you look at mobile app revenue.

Web is a viable option on iOS, especially when Apple just released push notification support. Apple has no control over the content of what is released on the web.

Do I wish more services would be available with a web-interface rather than forcing me to download an app that’s - more or less - just showing or replicating a web site? Absolutely. But web isn’t a viable option for everything.

Big difference between Apple and/or app developers doing something that prevent my needs and the government doing something that prevent my needs.

You don‘t need to be restricted to one app store to do your work - you prefer it.
Other users may be prevented from doing their work on iOS - because Apple won’t allow their apps.

The irony is that Apple themselves are acting like a quasi-government in governing their iOS platform. Including making laws on what’s (morally) acceptable as an app and and taxing users and consumers for it.

Opening up the distribution of apps through third-party sources will enable others to get what they want or need - that can‘t get it from Apple today.

 

[tripsync]

The market will take care of these consumer-unfriendly app stores.

Oh so now you believe in market forces. Odd how you only use it when it works in your favor.

While we‘re at it, Apple’s monopoly on App Stores has already worked against me, the user. Why is there no single one-tap button or method (as it used to be!) at the bottom of the App Store app to get an overview at updateable apps in their App Store app anymore? Because Apple decided they‘d need shoving down their bloody „Arcade“ offering down user‘s throats. And they can get away with it because there’s no competition.

"The market will take care of these App Store shenanigans"

And Apple’s iOS and App Store, once you look at mobile app revenue.

User marketshare is not the same as mobile app revenue.

Do I wish more services would be available with a web-interface rather than forcing me to download an app that’s - more or less - just showing or replicating a web site? Absolutely. But web isn’t a viable option for everything.

"The market will take care of web apps "

You don‘t need to be restricted to one app store to do your work - you prefer it.

We're operating under your hypothetical scenario, preventing XYZ.

 

[AppliedMicro]

Oh so now you believe in market forces. Odd how you only use it when it works in your favor.

Of course. That’s how government should legislate and regulate: filling in the gaps that the market doesn’t adequately provide - or that concern goods and services deemed too essential to leave to free market forces.

The market will take care of these App Store shenanigans

It doesn’t - cause cause there’s no competition to Apple’s App Store on iOS. Customers are basically forced to the App Store. The service and its user interface are tied to a core platform (that the user chooses).

User marketshare is not the same as mobile app revenue.

Not the same - but revenue is at least as relevant when it comes to developer relations (and their choices).

 

[I7guy]

[…]It doesn’t - cause cause there’s no competition to Apple’s App Store on iOS. Customers are basically forced to the App Store. The service and its user interface are tied to a core platform (that the user chooses).
[…]

It’s called android - the competition.

 

[BaldiMac]

Why is there no single one-tap button or method (as it used to be!) at the bottom of the App Store app to get an overview at updateable apps in their App Store app anymore? Because Apple decided they‘d need shoving down their bloody „Arcade“ offering down user‘s throats.

There is. Open the App Store. Tap on the Account icon in the top right corner.

And they can get away with it because there’s no competition.

There is plenty of competition. It's just in the smartphone market. Not the made up subset that you want to focus on.

 

[AppliedMicro]

It’s called android - the competition.

It’s not. It’s not in any way relevant competition to make Apple change their way regarding that.
No one will buy an Android phone due to Apple unfriendly placement of a button.

There is. Open the App Store. Tap on the Account icon in the top right corner.

Not as convenient for one-handed operation. Also, you have to scroll more.
Last but not least, it’s not intuitive. Updating purchased/installed apps is a core function of any package manager that shouldn’t be hidden behind a non-descriptive account icon like that.

Also, it’s factually misleading and wrong - since the sheet popping up is titled “account” - yet may contain updateable apps that were purchased with a different account than the one shown.

There is plenty of competition. It's just in the smartphone market. Not the made up subset that you want to focus on.

It’s no less “made up” or arbitrary than your definition of smartphone market.

Your suggestion of the overall smartphone market as a relevant market makes little to no sense - because smartphones could all run the same OS and App Store (with no competition for those) while being manufactured by different competing hardware manufacturers. Similar to Windows as a desktop OS.

Neither the U.S. court that handled the Epic vs. Apple trial nor the EU recognised the overall smartphone market as relevant - nor do I.