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If on App Store day one developers added that 30% as their business cost and pass it to customers while maintaining the same pricing on website or whatever, preventing Apple from accusing them putting iOS users in disadvantage, 10 years later, we’d never had this discussion in the first place, and customers wouldn’t even know that 30% cut exist. Better yet, Apple and google could raise the cut slowly to 50% or 70% or some other crazy numbers over the years, all passed on to customers. They gets far more money, customers would not complain much, and everybody would be happy.

Well, too late now.
 
And how many “regular users” know about this side loading and the third party app stores? Isn’t that like saying people can jailbreak iOS and install cydia or whatever?
No its very easy to sideload on android. It's a simple as turning on a setting to allow Downloads from third party apps. That's all you need to do then you can install whatever you want. Jail breaking and rooting are much more complex.
 
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The antitrust lawsuit will put an end to mandatory 30% fee through Apple Payment method for subscription and in-app purchases. The customer is going to have more ways of making payments inside the third party application and the app store must not interfere with how it works.
 
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Now you’re being vengeful. Apple Card is for *purchases*. We pay. We didn’t earn. You (Epic) earn. That’s why you got charged 30%.
If I earn then of course I’m willing to get charged 30%. What’s there to understand further?

You are just switching around words dude. I can say, let Apple Card charge 30% of transaction fee for the ones accepting i, (as they are the ones to earn and have the privilige of accepting Apple Card customers), the cash flows are literally the same.

By your logic that's ok.
 
I can say, let Apple Card charge 30% of transaction fee for the ones accepting

....

By your logic that's ok.

You’re not making any sense. What credit card charging vendors 30%. Please list one.

Most credit cards charging vendors from 0.5-3%. I’m sure Apple Card also fall into this bracket, so what’s the problem? What’s there to understand again? You don’t have to pull number out of your ass because Apple already has its own credit card and the charging fee is more or less normal market rate, just as App Store fee.

If most credit card charging vendors 30% then nobody will complain when Apple Card charges the same, aren’t they?

Your example doesn’t make any sense, and your thinking is illogical.
 
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Apple has no right to take a 30% fee for in-app purchases, subscription and obstruct alternative payment even though the application gets free via the app store.
Apple can do what they want because it’s their AppStore. If the developer doesn’t agree then they don’t have to put their app on the AppStore. Apple don’t owe developers a living.
 
Not if you actually read the article:

"Epic had asked Apple for permission to bypass the in-app purchase system and allow Fortnite players to pay for in-game currency directly"

If Apple allowed Fortnite players to bypass Apple's IAP and pay the developer directly, a) every single user capable of downloading the Fortnite app would see that it is possible, and b) all other developers would demand Apple let them do the same, given their "treat every developer equally rhetoric".

That remains the original and whole point.
No. It would have been a secret deal between Epic and Apple. They are now trying to pretend that they are being noble and taking on a fight for all developers. However if Apple had given Epic their special deal there would be no lawsuits and no 1984 videos and no outcry against Apple.
 
The way I understand it, the underlying complaint is that Apple is somehow "tying" IAP to iOS. "Tying" can be an antitrust violation and AFAIK it doesn't require the existence of a monopoly, only the existence of market power, which Apple definitely has.

I'm not sure why they are using the "monopoly within iOS" angle, I don't think it has any chance of succeeding unless it's some sort of PR way to present the "tying" argument, which will be IMHO the fundamental one.

I am also not sure whether the "tying" argument will fly, but it seems to me at least plausible whereas the "monopoly within iOS" is not.
A smaller market where monopoly in fact is not established through anti-competitive conduct is not illegal. However, Apple's App Store monopoly is established through anti-competitive conduct (bundling App Store with iOS, preventing users from using anything else). Apple's App Store monopoly would be legal only if iOS users had the opportunity to use something else but willingly chose to use App Store.


"Proving market power isn’t typically required for practices considered per se antitrust violations, but it is for tying." So if they can't show that Apple is a monopoly, they don't have a leg to stand on.

I don't think the claim that this is illegal tying is going to get very far. They don't seem like separate products (buying apps, buying features?). You aren't forced to use IAP. Apple isn't using this to prevent Epic from competing, only to protect the user experience on the Apple platform. Epic has plenty of other routes to market.

And, as @cmaier points out, there is precedent stating that you can't have a monopoly in your own product. This actually references back to an older suit against Apple by Psystar concerning Mac OS. A suit Apple won.

But winning the suit isn't really what they're after here. They're slinging mud, plain and simple. They're trying to build a narrative of Apple as the oppressor. They're hoping that by going after Apple's image, they'll force Apple into a more defensive posture. I don't see that happening either.

Apple seems to know exactly what the rules are, and they seem to know they're playing inside of them. I think that's a lot of the reason for how they deal with Amazon and Spotify-- they know that there is much greater risk of getting called out for using whatever market power they have in smartphones to gain market power in music or video. Again, I don't see Apple as a monopoly of anything right now, so I don't think there's much risk in music or video, but I could imagine Apple has aspirations to dominate a few of those eventually. Either way, that's not the problem with Epic, though.
 
You want to know whats irony is.... the people who’s taking Apples side on this wants socialism in our government lol

Wait, the people who think the government should leave private enterprise alone are the socialists? I don't think that word means what you think that it means...

Or are you actually using the word "irony" correctly? I just assumed you got it wrong because most people who throw socialism into unrelated conversations usually do...
 
Wait, the people who think the government should leave private enterprise alone are the socialists? I don't think that word means what you think that it means...

Or are you actually using the word "irony" correctly? I just assumed you got it wrong because most people who throw socialism into unrelated conversations usually do...

I think @mrcloaked is purposely being sarcastic for the sake of being sarcastic. He was one of the earliest critics of this issue and it’s hard to believe he has done a complete 180_degree turn overnight.
 
They can do whatever they want with their system. The phone is a different matter. It's not their phone, it's my phone. The customer should be able to do with their phone whatever he wants. Government must make sure that's the case. Alternative app stores would make it possible. Apple may charge 30% or 90% fee. That’s their prerogative. Other stores may be able to lower the fees to, say, 10%. Let the customer and the developer choose the store they like more.

Your phone but THEIR operating system. YOU agreed to these terms and conditions even you first activited it.
 
Something in common that supporters of Epic seem to have is an irrational belief that opening up the app store landscape would be a great thing for developers.

But here's the thing: despite Apple having a single app store, app developers sell more iOS apps than they do Android - by a large degree.

And remember they when one looks at Global numbers, Google leaves Apple in the dust when it comes to user base.

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So, I'd really like to know just what this justification is to open up to third party app stores because right now the status quo looks pretty gosh darned good for iOS developers.
 
The antitrust lawsuit will put an end to mandatory 30% fee through Apple Payment method for subscription and in-app purchases. The customer is going to have more ways of making payments inside the third party application and the app store must not interfere with how it works.
I don’t think this will end as you believe. But that’s my opinion.
 
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"Proving market power isn’t typically required for practices considered per se antitrust violations, but it is for tying." So if they can't show that Apple is a monopoly, they don't have a leg to stand on.
I don't see how your conclusion follows: "market power" does not equal "having a monopoly": you can have enough market power to distort competition without being a monopoly. I do agree Epic needs to prove Apple has such market power, I disagree it means they need to prove Apple is a monopoly.

I don't think the claim that this is illegal tying is going to get very far. They don't seem like separate products (buying apps, buying features?). You aren't forced to use IAP. Apple isn't using this to prevent Epic from competing, only to protect the user experience on the Apple platform. Epic has plenty of other routes to market.
Apple's IAP and iOS are undeniably tied together: if you want your app to be available in iOS you have to use Apple's IAP for your in-app purchases. Apple's claim will likely be that a) they are not separate products or services b) even if they are, the tying is legal. Epic will likely beg to differ of course.

But winning the suit isn't really what they're after here. They're slinging mud, plain and simple. They're trying to build a narrative of Apple as the oppressor. They're hoping that by going after Apple's image, they'll force Apple into a more defensive posture. I don't see that happening either.
I can actually agree this might be Epic's strategy, but even assuming it's what Epic is trying, it doesn't make sense without a lawsuit that, even if Epic's lawyers believe it's unlikely to win, has at least some teeth.

If Epic has zero credible legal arguments the suit would be quickly dismissed and they'd then have a much harder time with their "mud slinging". Epic needs a credible lawsuit and their lawyers have definitely assessed whether they have at least some argument to leverage to push it forward.

If not, they will crash and burn quite hard, but this is clearly something they have been planning for a while and I cannot imagine they'd make such a blunder.
Apple seems to know exactly what the rules are, and they seem to know they're playing inside of them.
I've read such claims already in the past: back in the day it was the Apple + Publishers eBook collusion case. Apple lost badly that one...
 
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Doing something to breach a contract because you think its "illegal" is not the right way to handle disputing problems.

So all the lawyers looking into Apple conveniently missed this? It wasn't until Epic pointed it out that they are doing illegal things? Or is it just that Epic feels its illegal?
For now, Epic "feels" its illegal: they might be right or wrong. The ultimate decision will be made by the courts.

It's definitely a gamble from Epic's part: if the clause is found to be valid of course Epic will be found in breach of it and will have to pay the consequences. More importantly, Apple would not need to revise it. Alternatively, if the clause is found to be invalid Epic cannot be sanctioned for breaching it and Apple would have to revise it.

Apple's lawyers likely believe they have a good legal standing to defend Apple's position. This doesn't mean they will win though.

Furthermore, even if the clause is illegal, first someone needs the "guts" to actually challenge it and only then it could potentially become void. Until then, Apple keeps reaping the benefits.
 
That was then and this is now. (Reminds me of comparing Apple to Blackberry by those who didn't think Apple would survive under Tim Cook...and look where they are now.)
Of course, the point is that in general these issues are usually not as clear-cut as many might believe.
 
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