Epic Games Store Lures EU Developers With Promise to Pay Apple Fees

[GubbyMan]

So now you agree that these things do cost Apple money to provide?

Yes, it costs Apple to maintain iOS updates. But I bought my iPhone and iOS came included with it. Are the updates just gifts from Apple given graciously to me? No, not with how they have complete control over what apps gets sold right now. Should Apple be allowed to do this? I think this starts getting into the anti-competitiveness territory. How much is Apple allowed to lock down their own platform?

 

[ultratiem]

Apple has all the monopolies so I want all the monopolies. Another idiot billionaire not happy he doesn’t have more of your money.

 

[Wowfunhappy]

Ah, that canard...The Mac grew up in a different era; an era where software manufacturers thought they could sell me their software 1 time and then provide lifetime support and upgrades to me for free.

...you mean those poor software manufacturers like Adobe, Intuit, and Microsoft who all went bankrupt selling software without a subscription?

(Sure, they sell subscriptions now, but that's just because they saw an opportunity to make even more money and took it. They weren't exactly struggling financially in the 90s and early 2000s.)

 

[rgeneral]

Just one year. Come on. It should be forever.

 

[Rogifan]

Because you think it costs nothing for Apple to provide the service?

My non-profit still has to pay for copies we make at Kinkos. Why should I demand free service from Apple?

What fee does Meta pay Apple for Facebook and Instagram downloads in the US App Store?

 

[WarmWinterHat]

Ah, that canard...The Mac grew up in a different era; an era where software manufacturers thought they could sell me their software 1 time and then provide lifetime support and upgrades to me for free.

Even though I hate the subscription model of software, I fully understand why it exists. There are ongoing costs for platforms and feature development. The Mac model was formed in naiveté. Now we live in the real world, where we want ongoing support, upgrades and new features. This costs money.

The Mac model is dead everywhere. Unless of course you want to pay for your phone through subscriptions?

It's dead on the phone? I have zero app subscriptions on my phone, and I pay for zero Apple services.

I still only buy one and done apps. If they never upgrade, other than a new version, that's fine.

 

[Timo_Existencia]

How much is Apple allowed to lock down their own platform?

There's your answer. Or at least it should be. You're making the argument that "it's my phone, I should be able to do with it what I want!!!" Why don't you grant that same argument to Apple?

 

[Timo_Existencia]

...you mean those poor software manufacturers like Adobe, Intuit, and Microsoft who all went bankrupt selling software without a subscription?

Take a look at their models now. Again, you're arguing out of nostalgia, not reality.

(Sure, they sell subscriptions now, but that's just because they saw an opportunity to make even more money and took it. They weren't exactly struggling financially.)

You actually think a business can sell you a service one timel for life that needs constant updating and feature enhancement?

Stop. Pause. And think about your argument.

 

[Timo_Existencia]

What fee does Meta pay Apple for Facebook and Instagram downloads in the US App Store?

In the EU? I'm assuming they pay the CTF like everyone else in the EU.

But in the US, under an entirely different model, that's a different question.

All that aside, how business choose to operate is not something, outside of broad safety concerns, I care for Government to dictate. If Apple wants to cut deals with different companies in different ways, that's up to Apple.

 

[Timo_Existencia]

It's dead on the phone? I have zero app subscriptions on my phone, and I pay for zero Apple services.

Exactly!!!! Because in the current model successful apps and developers are paying those costs for you. That's Apple's model. And it seems to work well for most developers and users.

I still only buy one and done apps. If they never upgrade, other than a new version, that's fine.

Until it's not, of course.

 

[Wowfunhappy]

There's your answer. Or at least it should be. You're making the argument that "it's my phone, I should be able to do with it what I want!!!" Why don't you grant that same argument to Apple?

Because it's not Apple's phone, it's my phone.

---

I will say—I agree with what the EU is doing but I actually disagree with their reasons. To me, the idea that a phone is ultimately owned by the phone manufacturer, and not the individual consumer, is extremely dangerous to democracy and free society at large. A prime example is what happened when China asked Apple to pull the Hong Kong protester safety app.

No one company should be able to control what everyone else is able to do with their phones, just because some government they want to appease wants to stop an inconvenient political movement.

Apple's approach does increase security, but the risk isn't worth it. It makes it too easy to take away people's individual freedom.

 

[surferfb]

Because it's not Apple's phone, it's my phone.

It’s Apple’s Operating System though. They own it, maintain it. You license it.

 

[Wowfunhappy]

You actually think a business can sell you a service one timel for life that needs constant updating and feature enhancement?

No, I think they provide updates for X years and then stop. And then the consumer can decide if they want to keep paying or not. That's how it used to work, and it was plenty profitable.

You could (fairly) argue that's the same as a subscription. But with a subscription I don't have the option to stay on an old version, for however long that's feasible. People rode out CS6 for a while!

 

[ProbablyDylan]

Because it's not Apple's phone, it's my phone.

inb4 "Um, actually, you only license the software that Apple owns!"

Sounds ridiculous, right? We all hate the "you don't own anything" game until it's Apple that plays it. Suddenly, they're the victim!

 

[Timo_Existencia]

Because it's not Apple's phone, it's my phone.

Welcome to the modern world of intellectual property.

But, it IS your phone, and you bought it knowing the restrictions that are placed upon it. Which is not so different than many products you buy, that can't simply be used in any way you'd like to use them. (It's MY gun, and can point it and shoot it in any direction at anytime I please!"

What Apple is doing does increase security, but the risk isn't worth it.

Hard lesson: You have to make choices in life. Utopia doesn't exist.

 

[Wowfunhappy]

Hard lesson: You have to make choices in life. Utopia doesn't exist.

...and we make laws to try to make the world better...?

 

[surferfb]

inb4 "Um, actually, you only license the software that Apple owns!"

Sounds ridiculous, right? We all hate the "you don't own anything" game until it's Apple that plays it. Suddenly, they're the victim!

Nothing is preventing you from jailbreaking your phone and sideloading to your heart’s content. Apple isn’t obligated to help you though, anymore than Sony is obligated to help you play Xbox games on your PS5.

 

[Timo_Existencia]

...and we make laws to try to make the world better...?

You make laws, often, in the naive expectation that you're making the world better. But you see through a glass darkly.

 

[JonathanX64]

The funny thing about this story is that it was always obvious that alternate app stores were never going to be some golden solution to anything, just as alternate app stores are not important in the Android world. It's simply a model that has ceased to be useful in the modern digital world.

But hey, nostalgia!!!!

Every single day, I use:
• A modified YouTube client with built-in SponsorBlock and the option to set playback speeds higher than 2x
• An app embedding yt-dlp, which allows me to download YouTube videos as files and easily share them anywhere.
• Apps for services sanctioned by the U.S. government and thus unavailable on the App Store or Google Play, which I can only install via .apk files—this includes a few banking apps.
• Apps unavailable in my region’s stores so I just downloaded them as .apks (like the app to control my Shokz headset, which is region-locked for some baffling reason, but it’s not going to stop me lol).

As you can understand, I’m clearly not doing this on an iPhone.

 

[JonathanX64]

Because it's not Apple's phone, it's my phone.

---

I will say—I agree with what the EU is doing but I actually disagree with their reasons. To me, the idea that a phone is ultimately owned by the phone manufacturer, and not the consumer, is extremely dangerous for personal liberty and free expression. My primary example of this is what happened when China asked Apple to pull the Hong Kong protest safety app. No one company should be able to control what everyone else is able to see on their phones.

What Apple is doing does increase security, but the risk isn't worth it. It makes it too easy for a government, a business executive, or anyone else to control me, to control the whole population!

Preach, brother.

People can legally own and modify things far more dangerous than computing devices. It’s legal to disable ESP on 600-horsepower sports cars from Germany, yet we can’t install a stupid video games on our portable computing bricks without the manufacturer’s consent?

Pure hypocrisy on Apple's part.

 

[SpaceJello]

So…. Why would I choose to get the game on Epic’s store instead of Apple’s? It’s already annoying when EA and Unisoft forces you to download their programs to play their games on the PC, etc. This seems like another hassle.

 

[Timo_Existencia]

People can legally own and modify things far more dangerous than computing devices. It’s legal to disable ESP on 600-horsepower sports cars from Germany, yet we can’t install a stupid video games on our portable computing bricks without the manufacturer’s consent?

Pure hypocrisy on Apple's part.

You're mixing your targets. You're saying "it's legal to modify a car;" Legal is a governmental term. But then you're saying Apple is hypocritical.

Apple is not the government.

 

[wbeasley]

What service are they providing? Let people write their own code and run it on the device they bought. Just like you can do on Mac.

you can do all that... using your own tools.

brick the device, install an OS and make your own dev environment and tools...

oh? you expect Apple to support you?

why? you just bought and own the device... the software and tools were licenced to you, just like on any other device, and you want to do something outside that licence.

knock yourself out, do it. feel free of the Apple Overlord...

 

[surferfb]

People can legally own and modify things far more dangerous than computing devices. It’s legal to disable ESP on 600-horsepower sports cars from Germany, yet we can’t install a stupid video games on our portable computing bricks without the manufacturer’s consent?

It’s legal to jailbreak your phone and install apps from wherever you want. But just like the manufacturer of your 600hp car isn’t obligated to help you disable ESP, Apple isn’t obligated to help you install apps they don’t want on their store.

 

[wbeasley]

You're mixing your targets. You're saying "it's legal to modify a car;" Legal is a governmental term. But then you're saying Apple is hypocritical.

Apple is not the government.

they should ask why the EU wont allow users to install whatever they like on their game consoles.

but some crazy arbitrary EU number of units excluded those.
it was simply a fight they didnt want to get into...

there is no reason why a game console is different to a phone these days.
similar processing power and storage and graphics.

that's the hypocrisy at play here...