Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
In my opinion what Apple is doing to Epic and others who are worth millions/billions is a form of legalised racketeering. Apple knows the games produced by Epic are extremely popular hence they look for a way to profit from Epic and they do so by forcing Epic to use Apple's own payment system which incurs a 30% charge everytime an Epic user makes an in-app purchase for one of it's games.

They force *everyone* to use Apple’s payment system, regardless of popularity, but only if the developer wants to use Apple’s intellectual property and do transactions in the app.

If you don’t want to do transactions in the app, you are free to do so outside the App Store ecosystem, and apple will still graciously allow you to use it’s intellectual property for a $99/year flat fee.

Not exactly racketeering. (By the way “legalized racketeering” is an oxymoron.)
 
  • Like
Reactions: ader42
You mention the yearly fee that Epic pays. That fee is basically to cover certificate management.

And intellectual property. It is essentially impossible to create an app that is not using Apple’s patents or copyrights. Apple grants a license to use all that for your apps that are distributed in the App Store, so long as you follow all of Apple’s rules and pay them the $99/year.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ader42
apps for the iphone are an important commodity wouldn't you say? because without apps, the iphone is worhtless. The apps make the iphone a very imporant tool and the fact that Apple controls the app store, it puts them in a very powerful position which allows them to dictate unreasonable conditions, conditions which Epic feels are unreasonable and fighting against.
I need a phone and car. I dont need an iPhone and Mercedes.
 
And intellectual property. It is essentially impossible to create an app that is not using Apple’s patents or copyrights. Apple grants a license to use all that for your apps that are distributed in the App Store, so long as you follow all of Apple’s rules and pay them the $99/year.
It is essentially impossible to run a company without using ATT telecommunications infrastructure. ATT will grant developers a license to offer their apps using their property if you agree to follow their rules and pay them $ per year...
 
It is essentially impossible to run a company without using ATT telecommunications infrastructure. ATT will grant developers a license to offer their apps using their property if you agree to follow their rules and pay them $ per year...

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. Are you claiming that iphones are a public utility? Because, if so, that’s just whacky.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ader42
I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. Are you claiming that iphones are a public utility? Because, if so, that’s just whacky.
Not really, but the logic that company A owns some property that company B depends on implies that companyA deserves a share of all revenue from company B seems suspect to me. I mean I get that there needs to be an agreement over revenue owed (since company A does deserve compensation) but I don't think simply ATT being a public utility would logically preclude them from requiring payment - merely it would require them to treat everyone the same.
 
Not really, but the logic that company A owns some property that company B depends on implies that companyA deserves a share of all revenue from company B seems suspect to me. I mean I get that there needs to be an agreement over revenue owed (since company A does deserve compensation) but I don't think simply ATT being a public utility would logically preclude them from requiring payment - merely it would require them to treat everyone the same.

I still don’t see what that has to do with the fact that apple has a right to charge licensing fees. Att built them into its customer charges too, back in the day. This is not a new concept.
 
The more likely scenario is that it was an organic pullback from an all time high. Correlation doesn’t equal causation.

View attachment 1830666
Could be, but all that does is add to my conclusion that the market didn't see this news as a win for Apple. You guys are merely arguing from an emotional position, not an objective one. I'm leaving it here, nothing more to add, we can go around in circles all day long. Over and out.
 
Could be, but all that does is add to my conclusion that the market didn't see this news as a win for Apple. You guys are merely arguing from an emotional position, not an objective one. I'm leaving it here, nothing more to add, we can go around in circles all day long. Over and out.

No, just highlighting that correlation does not equal causation. The entire Nasdaq and S&P 500 is down over the last week as well. As has already been highlighted to you, there is natural movement within any market and the moves in Apple stock are not statistically significant. If they were, you’d be able to highlight this weeks move from within the noise that another user has already posted.

The market didn’t see it as a win and they didn’t see it as a loss.…because it really is business as usual.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Analog Kid
No, just highlighting that correlation does not equal causation. The entire Nasdaq and S&P 500 is down over the last week as well. As has already been highlighted to you, there is natural movement within any market and the moves in Apple stock are not statistically significant. If they were, you’d be able to highlight this weeks move from within the noise that another user has already posted.

The market didn’t see it as a win and they didn’t see it as a loss.…because it really is business as usual.
Right. The stock market, especially in the short run is a crappy prediction of what is going on. I suspect we had a lot of day trader who read the headlines and panicked. Heck, Sears which is known to be in deep trouble financially say their stock go up in the same period.

The fact Apple won all but one point (the anti-steering one) shows the total disconnect between reality and clueless investors
 
Could be, but all that does is add to my conclusion that the market didn't see this news as a win for Apple. You guys are merely arguing from an emotional position, not an objective one. I'm leaving it here, nothing more to add, we can go around in circles all day long. Over and out.
Objectively Apple won all but one point in the lawsuit and they only lost that one point because California's antitrust laws are far broader in scope than than even the Federal government.
 
I still don’t see what that has to do with the fact that apple has a right to charge licensing fees. Att built them into its customer charges too, back in the day. This is not a new concept.
I actually agree Apple has a right to charge licensing fees, rather I am more concerned with the efficacy and long term consequences of the way in which they currently operate the App Store. Continuing my analogy with ISPs. developers would be rightly outraged if ATT started charging a percentage fee of all developers that distributed content over their network. A similar logic to the one Apple uses would apply to this fee that ATT charged, that they built the infrastructure that these developers use to make money so its only logical that they get a cut.

My point is not that Apple doesn't have a right to charge a license fee, but rather third party development adds more value to apples platform than iOS would have on its own and that if apple wants to charge a license fee it should be fair and consistent.

Kind of rambling here, I'm not entirely sure I disagree with you just that I find that the way Apple runs the App Store is not actually to the benefit of the customer in many ways. They block perfectly legitimate apps that might be seen to compete (the watch keyboard) but allow so so so many scummy games. They allow apps that are useless without a subscription (Netflix) and generate no revenue but claim they deserve IAP revenue because they built the technology that enabled the apps to thrive.
 
Kind of rambling here, I'm not entirely sure I disagree with you just that I find that the way Apple runs the App Store is not actually to the benefit of the customer in many ways. They block perfectly legitimate apps that might be seen to compete (the watch keyboard) but allow so so so many scummy games. They allow apps that are useless without a subscription (Netflix) and generate no revenue but claim they deserve IAP revenue because they built the technology that enabled the apps to thrive.
The flaw here is that App Store exists on the Mac was well as iOS and you can side load all over the place on the Mac. In fact it is not uncommon for there to be two versions of programs - one for the external website and another for the App Store. More often than not the App Store version has fewer features.
 
That changes the subject. The fact is, right now there is a way for developers to distribute apps via browser. None of them want to do so because they want the benefit of the app frameworks that Apple provides. Those app frameworks are Apple’s intellectual property. And the court, rightly, pointed out that Apple is entitled to be compensated for the use of that intellectual property.
Nope that’s a fat lie. There are multiple programs to make iOS software, you just need to Xcode to sign the thing needlessly. You could use Unreal Engine or Unity.
Apple have just done their hardest to make it as impossible to make iOS programs without using Xcode.
Xcode is only needed to make App Store apps, cydia or other stores don’t need it.

apple forces you to use their IP
 
  • Love
Reactions: Maximara
They block perfectly legitimate apps that might be seen to compete (the watch keyboard)

You know the watch keyboard wasn’t actually blocked, and is in the App Store along with lots of other watch keyboards, right? You believe everything angry developers claim?


Apple told AppleInsider that the letter shown in the Twitter thread dates from 2019 when such keyboards were not allowed on the Apple Watch. The company initially allowed the app back because of its accessibility function and, separately, has removed the constraint.
Consequently, according to Apple, there are now several keyboard extension apps for Apple Watch on the App Store. And Apple featured FlickType in its Top Apps roundup of 2020.“
 
You know the watch keyboard wasn’t actually blocked, and is in the App Store along with lots of other watch keyboards, right? You believe everything angry developers claim?


Apple told AppleInsider that the letter shown in the Twitter thread dates from 2019 when such keyboards were not allowed on the Apple Watch. The company initially allowed the app back because of its accessibility function and, separately, has removed the constraint.
Consequently, according to Apple, there are now several keyboard extension apps for Apple Watch on the App Store. And Apple featured FlickType in its Top Apps roundup of 2020.“
Huh, I must have missed the follow up reporting on that, I stand corrected.
 
Successful game developers subsidize a lot of big companies. Most of the big companies apps are free. No one pays anything (monetarily) to use Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat. What does it cost Apple to host those apps in it’s store? Why do they get to mooch but a game doesn’t?
Facebook and those Apps are provided for free to everyone and their revenue is completely seperate of the app and so are many games. When a company decides to monetize the game, either through in App purchases or sale of the app itself then it is a business. Put simply if you look at it like a mall, most malls will let you stand inside and hand out free leaflets for an event as an example as long as it is not offensive, however if you try and setup a kiosk and sell stuff for free you are not allowed to unless you rent a space. Why should Apple let you sit in their mall and make money while they pay all the space and utilities payment etc. Not sure why this is a hard concept. If you want to sell your product in another companies space, there is rent, or in this case a service charge.
 
  • Love
Reactions: Maximara
Why should Apple let you sit in their mall and make money while they pay all the space and utilities payment etc. Not sure why this is a hard concept. If you want to sell your product in another companies space, there is rent, or in this case a service charge.

I agree with everything you said. Fees are inevitable... especially in a mall.

But the issue is that Apple controls the only mall in existence. You either pay their high rent... or you don't get to have a store at all.

There's no other competing mall... no cheaper strip mall... no way to even setup a little kiosk inside Walmart... etc.

So if you don't like Apple's way... there's no other way to sell your app on Apple's platform.

Like I said earlier... I agree with the concept of fees. Every mall charges rent... every store takes a cut... etc.

So the issue should be how much are those fees.

Even Phil Schiller asked "are we gonna do 30% forever?"

I think... and I'm just some random guy on the internet... that Apple should just lower the App Store fees to 10% for everyone. Small one-man developers... giant billion-dollar developers... everybody.

Apple will still make a ridiculous amount of money due to volume... and it will greatly reduce the regulatory pressure from various nations and government bodies.

Again... I'm not against the concept of fees... but the fees themselves should be examined.
 
I agree with everything you said. Fees are inevitable... especially in a mall.

But the issue is that Apple controls the only mall in existence..
No Apple does not control the only mall in existence, even the judge stated that. Go to a Ford dealership and try to buy a Honda - that is how the judge saw Apple's market.

By Epic's loopy logic Ford dealer would be a "monopoly" because they only sold cars made by Ford. Heck you can't even work on the car via third party if you want to keep the warranty Ford has on the vehicle.

Hoag Law effectively rakes Epic's spin over the coals in Epic v Apple: APPLE LIED? Fortnite Out for (Much) Longer than a Fortnight (VL545)
 
Last edited:
Facebook and those Apps are provided for free to everyone and their revenue is completely seperate of the app and so are many games. When a company decides to monetize the game, either through in App purchases or sale of the app itself then it is a business. Put simply if you look at it like a mall, most malls will let you stand inside and hand out free leaflets for an event as an example as long as it is not offensive, however if you try and setup a kiosk and sell stuff for free you are not allowed to unless you rent a space. Why should Apple let you sit in their mall and make money while they pay all the space and utilities payment etc. Not sure why this is a hard concept. If you want to sell your product in another companies space, there is rent, or in this case a service charge.
The yearly fee pays for among other things the priviledge of 'renting' the space. Tagging on 15% & 30% to in-app purchases is just an exercise in how to money grab.
 
On Apples website it states that Apple has paid out over $230 billion to developers selling digital goods and services. So just what exactly is Apple paying the develper for? because as i understand it, app developers pay Apple a yearly fee to put their apps on the store and apps that use in-app purchases are charged a surcharge of 15% or 30%. So if Apple says that they have paid out $230 billion to developers, what are the developers doing that gets apple to pay them???
 
The yearly fee pays for among other things the priviledge of 'renting' the space. Tagging on 15% & 30% to in-app purchases is just an exercise in how to money grab.

I don’t think that $99 a year pays for as much as you think it does. It’s like paying to enter Disneyland and then complaining that you still have to pay separately for food and souvenirs.
 
No Apple does not control the only mall in existence, even the judge stated that. Go to a Ford dealership and try to buy a Honda - that is how the judge saw Apple's market.

Lol I know... I meant on iOS which is what Epic was trying to say.

Yes... I know what the judge said. And I agree with her ruling. Sorry I misspoke!

And this will set a precedent, right? So no one else can come along and try to define a monopoly again. That's good too!

:)
 
Last edited:
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.