They just might. It's the only way the EU would ever be able to make personal technology products.
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EU Orders Google to Give Rival AI Apps the Same Android Access as Gemini
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They just might. It's the only way the EU would ever be able to make personal technology products.
As I recently argued in another thread, I believe there is a middle ground.
You should inform people. Teach them, warn them.
You can "nudge" people to follow the "right* path": higher taxes on tobacco, lower taxes on healthy food, fines for driving to fast.
You can "nudge" companies to follow the "right* path": sugar tax in the UK, higher fines for unfair market practices, subsidies for healthier ingredients.
There is no need to outright ban salt, fat, alcohol. Make sure, REALLY sure, that people are aware of the consequences of their actions. There will always be a few that will act like teenagers and do the exact opposite of what is good* for them, but a lot of people will react the right* way.
Smoking in Germany is declining, the obesity numbers in UK are starting to decline, number of traffic fatalities in cities with speed limits is falling. All without banning tobacco, sugar or cars. Just by encouraging the right* behaviour.
* : I am aware that deciding what is "right" is a whoooooole other thing. That's a can of worms I'm not opening tonight anymore. 🙂
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Reason077
macrumors 601
They're not trying to help EU citizens. They're trying to protect their non-existent alternative options.
Reason077
macrumors 601
They did. They decided not to ship non-compliant products in the EU market.
I think tobacco is a good analogy:
- Tobacco is clearly harmful for the user — sharing users private data with Meta or a similar player whose business is selling users profile to advertisers is clearly harmful to the user
- Tobacco can have irreversible consequences (lung cancer) — Leaking the data to a Chinese company will be once and done; the user cannot undo the harm
- Tobacco can have negative impact to society beyond the user (other taxpayers end up paying for users chemotherapy) — Leaking a sizeable share of EU population's private data to CCP controlled AI provider can have national security implications.
I am afraid that:
- Legislation will do the opposite of requiring warnings. This time it is more likely to mandate no warnings due to them putting AI companies in competitive disadvantage.
- There will again need to be decades of harm to the population until the population learns the consequences.
mjs916
macrumors 65816
“Forcing a monopoly”. Explain how that’s what they are preventing please. Primarily the “forcing” part.
visualseed
macrumors 65816
johnsawyercjs
macrumors 68000
Siri AI isn't powered by Google Gemini, at least not in the way you might be implying.
A better way to describe the situation might be self-preferencing.
macfacts
macrumors 603
This is win-win for EU consumers.
If they pull the AI: great. Nobody wants it anyway.
If they comply, and make the AI inter-operable: great as well! Open models, and not empower a monopoly to grow? Works for me.
If they pull the AI: great. Nobody wants it anyway.
If they comply, and make the AI inter-operable: great as well! Open models, and not empower a monopoly to grow? Works for me.
Good up to a point though I'd want to make sure they're applying the same basic standard to Google as to Apple. While the compliance issues aren't identical, it seems to me Google is getting quite a bit of time to comply.
So this is a much more interesting argument than most on this thread. Regulators very often don't think as much as they should about second order effects like this, the proverbial "unintended consequence" and the like, and it's good to see someone talking about it.
alecgold
macrumors 68000
Oh, I would like sooo much going back to a computer, musu.bi notebook, Conid fountain pen and a disk-dial-landline-phone. Those where the days.
One hit on a button in the Netherlands-Europe (just a tiny 18mln peeps country) and not a single decent chip is made anywhere world wide. They control 100% of all the faster chips naar world wide. ASML.
Thee are 100’s of companies needed and several of them are a chokehold, all over the world. There is no great America that has everything. Without TSMC, without Foxconn, without… no phone, iPad, or any better Android phone is being produced.
And you can argue all you want, but living in the EU gives you a better health, better accessible health care, better education on average, better protection from harmful food additives, better consumer rights and better privacy rights then anywhere in the world.
And all of that with several countries that just joint the bloc. That have been long under Sovjet control, that are redefining themselves, that are coming from economic difficult histories.
Yelp all you want, but when was the last time the US successfully brought a country to a democratic regime change or improved the democratic rule in a country? Gave people in other countries (or for the sake of it, in the US?!?) a better government, improved health of those citizens?
Perhaps the Second World War, and that was with Australians, Canadian, British and several others.
The US has been spitting their “friends“ a lot in the face, lately. And if the US don’t want to align with the EU or other countries, fine, that’s your choice to make. But don’t complain about the choices we make and don’t complain when the EU builds better relations with China, forges strong bonds with Canada, UK, Australia and many Asian countries that are much more reliable then the US has been.
Or would you like to discuss the behaviour of the utterly unreliable partner the US had been just in the last year? From import taxes that changed daily to the president that would never start a war but still is dropping a lot of bombs on Iran?
/r
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I consent, choose to, and pay for a product that has a walled garden AI. Can I still get that feature? Or is the EU going to step in tell me "we know better"?
EU's order isn't valid against Apple unless they used the iOrder app and had an iOrder Pro subscription. They havent suggested they did.
alecgold
macrumors 68000
No, you can just use the apple standard Siri /AI, or no AI at all, just like apple gives you now. But Apple wouldn’t be allowed to keep every other AI out. Apple can set standards, they still can set rules, but not blanket deny access to all.
It would be much like the Apple App Store. I’m allowed to use apps not from Apple Store, but I choose not too.
There is a lot of "not allowed" in your reply. That's the point I'm trying to make: the provider choose to provide service in a particular manner, customers choose it. Yet big brother says no because he knows better.
alecgold
macrumors 68000
Yes, and in a full market economy I would agree with you. I would prefer that absolutely. But there is no competition between two giants (apple, Google). There is just another “winner takes all” around the corner for AI. And AI might have much more impact then the internet hype we saw a few decades ago. You know the story of Rockefeller/ standard oil/ anti trust movement? I’m seeing a lot of parallels here.
One more thing on a full market economy: the user/ polluter would have to pay all cost. But in most (if not all) economies the user/ producer/ polluter hands the cost to society or future generations. From slave labour to forever chemicals, local pollution and destruction from mining or refining and so many other things: as a European I’am not paying the full price of my wealth, but somebody is/will.
I would presume most replying to this story are Americans shocked at government reducing the rights of the individual. Fair enough. That is A point of view.
But here is the crux. This whole debacle is just fundementalt ideology differences at work.
And I’ll try to avoid saying this in a "you bad, us good" tone.
What Americans seem to not understand is that companies don’t have your best interest at heart. They’re not necessarily better or worse than government, it’s just different type of bad. What Americans completely misunderstand is that not everything government does is bad and everything a company does is good. Left to their own devices, both will abuse their powers.
And as consumers/individuals we’re not always perfectly equipped to, on the surface, correctly evaluate if what government does is good or bad. Or what a company does, on the surface, is good or bad.
But what we do know is AI is completely new, there are no real regulations around it and we have no comprehension of what it can do to our privacy. And I KNOW Americans care a whole lot about privacy (from government). So is it so wrong to want to double check we don’t implement something we can, probably, never really take back?
The EU is fundamentally interested in protecting the consumer AGAINST companies. Either from misuse, warranty, price gouging, lack of service, incorrect pricing, price manipulation etc etc.
American law seems mostly to want to protect companies and that the market will regulate itself.
But with E.U. regulations, you get a level playing field. The rules are equal to all. Which removes barriers for competition. Which companies like Apple don’t want, because they want to introduce walled gardens, because that is in THEIR interests.
And these EU rules just opens things up for competition, which ironisk VERY VERY AMERICAN.
And companies WILL take advantage of a lack of regulation. They will pollute if it isn’t in their interest to not. They will charge too much, if they can. They will try to avoid warranty claims, if they can. And more so the more powerful a company is.
While Europeans are horrified of the apparent lack of regulations, Americans are shocked at the apparent over-regulation in the E.U.
AND I will wager my left pinkie that 98.67% of users here have also no idea of the possible consequences of just letting AI roam completely free on our devices without any regulation.
BUT there should be no debate that in the intersection of these two philosophies, the end result is better for EVERYONE.
AND like it or not, adversity and restriction is what makes stuff (and life) BETTER because we become more effective and creative. Going to the gym is basically adversity and restriction.
AND yes, too much regulation can become too restrictive in the end. But we’re definitely not there yet.
But here is the crux. This whole debacle is just fundementalt ideology differences at work.
And I’ll try to avoid saying this in a "you bad, us good" tone.
What Americans seem to not understand is that companies don’t have your best interest at heart. They’re not necessarily better or worse than government, it’s just different type of bad. What Americans completely misunderstand is that not everything government does is bad and everything a company does is good. Left to their own devices, both will abuse their powers.
And as consumers/individuals we’re not always perfectly equipped to, on the surface, correctly evaluate if what government does is good or bad. Or what a company does, on the surface, is good or bad.
But what we do know is AI is completely new, there are no real regulations around it and we have no comprehension of what it can do to our privacy. And I KNOW Americans care a whole lot about privacy (from government). So is it so wrong to want to double check we don’t implement something we can, probably, never really take back?
The EU is fundamentally interested in protecting the consumer AGAINST companies. Either from misuse, warranty, price gouging, lack of service, incorrect pricing, price manipulation etc etc.
American law seems mostly to want to protect companies and that the market will regulate itself.
But with E.U. regulations, you get a level playing field. The rules are equal to all. Which removes barriers for competition. Which companies like Apple don’t want, because they want to introduce walled gardens, because that is in THEIR interests.
And these EU rules just opens things up for competition, which ironisk VERY VERY AMERICAN.
And companies WILL take advantage of a lack of regulation. They will pollute if it isn’t in their interest to not. They will charge too much, if they can. They will try to avoid warranty claims, if they can. And more so the more powerful a company is.
While Europeans are horrified of the apparent lack of regulations, Americans are shocked at the apparent over-regulation in the E.U.
AND I will wager my left pinkie that 98.67% of users here have also no idea of the possible consequences of just letting AI roam completely free on our devices without any regulation.
BUT there should be no debate that in the intersection of these two philosophies, the end result is better for EVERYONE.
AND like it or not, adversity and restriction is what makes stuff (and life) BETTER because we become more effective and creative. Going to the gym is basically adversity and restriction.
AND yes, too much regulation can become too restrictive in the end. But we’re definitely not there yet.