EU Planning to Force Apple to Give Developers Access to All Hardware and Software Features

[dk001]

As far as I know you can send a text from signal on android. And you can receive sms from iOS on signal on android. But you can’t use signal and receive or send text on iOS. Essentially a one way street.

iOS can send sms to signal(and other apps) on android

Android can send sms with signal(and other apps) to anyone if it’s your default app.

As for iOS users, you can’t send SMS messages through the Signal( and other apps) app. Apple doesn’t allow its users to change the default messaging app on their device

But it’s simple vendor lock-in for a core platform services and make it as cumbersome as possible to switch.

Essentially the sunk cost fallacy as we have

The sunk cost fallacy means that we are making decisions that are irrational and lead to suboptimal outcomes. We are focused on our past investments instead of our present and future costs and benefits, meaning that we commit ourselves to decisions that are no longer in our best interests.

And companies exploits this to the max

Been doing a bit of playing (having both Android and iOS can be a benefit..) and found a couple of things.

iOS iMessage > SMS > Default Android messaging app - usually
You cannot send a message from iOS to another Android messaging app (not default) unless they are the same app

Nice benefit of being able to choose your default app. I can choose what messaging service I want to use.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Apple should use this as an opportunity to reset the conversation and adopt RCS. There was a time that maybe it disrupted SMS but honestly most carriers offer unlimited SMS anyway so this is a moot point.

This is a really good point

They could do all the cross platform stuff we have now (macOS/iOS) with RCS and it can still be called "Messages", but simply be built on interoperable underpinnings.

It really is time for a re-think there.

 

[RadioHedgeFund]

Your link doesn't show anything about iMessage market penetration.

Thats because its so low it doesn't have any real penetration.

 

[dk001]

Not Apples fault Signal doesn't receive messages from your cell number. Should both Apple and Google solve this? Should they provide a solution to make Signal work the way you want it to? Or should Signal figure out a way to revive messages from a cell number?

Sucks.

Then don't. Seriously do you wish you could stay in one app for all your apps too? Do you stay in your mail app to answer your phone, and reply to messages in facebook, and surf the web?
Lets take it to the Nth degree. Should Teams video chat work with Zoom and WebEx, and HD Meeting? Or should they be separate applications with uniqueness to each of them?

Should they work together to form some standard they can all communicate with so each user can stay on the app they prefer? Cause if you do that, what's the point of all the other apps? You end up with a standard and they all work exactly the same. AKA you end up with a basic SMS/MMS app or Phone app. With virtually no difference between them. If you want something "new", you use a "new" application that works differently and provides different features than "standard". Signal as you use is exactly this. A different app that works the way "it" works, that's not the same as others. There for will NOT work with others. Unless there is some collaboration between these companies and or the current "standard" of SMS in sending/receiving messages.

Forcing companies to use/create a standard removes many of the reasons you use each app. They all become the same app with a different look. So what did we accomplish by doing this other than interoperability?

Also, who's storing all this data? If your on one device with one OS and one "app". Does that app company store your data, or does all of them? Since it has to be able to connect you to virtually all other similar apps. They would all have to have your data (even if it's encrypted). So if you choose to switch to another similar app one day. All your "stuff" is right there. Or do you bulk transfer from your device to the next device and or app?

It is. You want to text someone and you don't know what they use. use SMS that's built in. I think you're choosing to make this difficult, when it's incredibly simple.

It was meant to be. Clearly.

YES! Why are you asking for improvement on something that truly doesn't need it? It's like NotePad on Windows verses Text Edit on Mac. Do we need to improve that? If you feel that way, why not use one of a bunch of alternatives that already "is" an improvement over both? And just like text messaging (SMS) it's a default app on both platforms and both platforms read .txt just fine.

Ok. Well, maybe Apple should design a phone and OS just for you?

Could be. Can't say for sure. Some changes maybe a zero affect on them. Others could be a higher percentage than they would otherwise wish to deal with. I personally don't think Apple does everything they do for profit only. Some things are long term plans that "will" benefit them financially but cost in the short term. If any of these changes had the potential to benefit them in the long term. They would most likely do it and do so quickly. I imagine the same would be true in reverse. If they don't see it as a long term benefit or just a total negative all around. They would fight to not do it. How does opening up their software/hardware "benefit" them? They have mostly been a closed "we make the whole widget" company.

Take the M1 for example. Apple could have just added AMD CPU's to their line up of offerings like any other PC company. AMD offered "better" CPU's right now vs intel. And I'm sure at better pricing. Since they already had Apple's dGPU business. But long term. Apple did not see a benefit to staying on x86 period. Didn't matter who made them. Too hot, and not advancing as quickly as Apple "wants". So, they looked at the CPU's they already made in the A series and said "you know what? I think we can make this work. Lets hire more people and get all the resources we need to make this happen. We will do it ourselves. It will cost us to do this in the short term. But long term, it will be another differentiator between us and the PC industry. We can control "our" own destiny as we always wanted".

Apple has every right to control what they make. Just like any other company. Unless it's illegal to make something that only works with other products made by the same company. And up until recently that was perfectly legal to do, whether you or anyone likes it or not. Every business has to make money/profit. This is no more illegal or immoral than anyone else in business.

Wow. I think, IMO, you went a bit much on your replies and making claims and assumptions.

btw - it is Apples fault. They have locked us into the default iMessage platform and have made it difficult.

Part of the issue from your point, IMO, is you feel no need for improving either usability for the consumer or updating a dated technology (SMS). many feel very different. Doesn't mean they would stop using the iPhone, rather would get better use from it, less open to changing to another platform, and more likely to recommend it.

As for Apple's, or any companies right to control what they make, they is true until they use that control to negatively impact consumers or to stifle innovation or market entrance. That, in the opinion of many Governments and groups, is exactly what Apple, Google, Amazon, Meta, and others are doing. The degree varies by each.


In the end

• You appear to see no reason for a change(s)
• I see reasons for some changes
• Others like the EU see reasons for a lot of changes

It will be interesting as this moves forward.

 

[BaldiMac]

Thats because its so low it doesn't have any real penetration.

That's certainly an assumption. Alternatively, Apple doesn't release the numbers. I've seen surveys in the US and UK that have 25% of users using iMessage regularly. For example:

HelpCenter – MessengerPeople HelpCenter

www.messengerpeople.com

Estimates are all over the place globally up to a billion active users, but that includes SMS messages in the Apple Messages app, so there aren't any good numbers.

iPhone and iPad Archives

There's a reason iPhones and iPads are so popular, and we're here to bring you honest impressions and reviews.

www.androidauthority.com

Of course, Apple only has around 20% of the global smartphone market, so that does limit the potential share of the messaging market. But that doesn't mean iMessage is a failure.

 

[lartola]

Your comment belongs in 2012 where you would have a point.

His comment also belongs to someone who has clearly never owned a high-end Android device and is based upon prejudice rather than actual experience.

 

[I7guy]

This is a really good point

They could do all the cross platform stuff we have now (macOS/iOS) with RCS and it can still be called "Messages", but simply be built on interoperable underpinnings.

It really is time for a re-think there.

Think apple is waiting for telegraph, signal and WhatsApp to sync up and see how they do it before apple starts to update their own messages code base.

 

[djphat2000]

Wow. I think, IMO, you went a bit much on your replies and making claims and assumptions.

btw - it is Apples fault. They have locked us into the default iMessage platform and have made it difficult.

The fact that you have another platforms device/os and a 3rd party app contradicts you or anyone else being locked in to anything Apple. You have a choice to leave or stay or both.

Part of the issue from your point, IMO, is you feel no need for improving either usability for the consumer or updating a dated technology (SMS).

SMS is what it is. Just like rotary phones. It was updated to touch tone, and for a time you could use both. But it's still a phone. SMS is old, not arguing that. But, it is exactly what it "is". The upgrades you ask for are already out there. Your using them. You just want it to work with SMS too and/or other 3rd party apps. Which IMHO, makes no sense. Just use the newer apps?

Why make all of these apps conform to a standard that will ONCE AGAIN become stale and old and in need of replacement? Let the companies innovate a better app or a better way to communicate. And if it happens to also work with old tech, cool. But they should not be tied down to it. Or forced to use it. It's no different than the EU wanting all mobile devices to standardize on USB-C. So what we can't have D or E?

many feel very different. Doesn't mean they would stop using the iPhone, rather would get better use from it, less open to changing to another platform, and more likely to recommend it.

People will feel however they feel. We can't pretend to speak for everyone. People change devices every day. Or buy newer versions of the brand they like.

As for Apple's, or any companies right to control what they make, they is true until they use that control to negatively impact consumers or to stifle innovation or market entrance.

Which they haven't. They had this before anyone cared about anything that is going on today. They innovated in a space they entered into. So did others. We all had basic SMS then MMS in the beginning. And when iMessage came out, both those older standards still worked!

That, in the opinion of many Governments and groups, is exactly what Apple, Google, Amazon, Meta, and others are doing. The degree varies by each.

You said it. Governements. I don't hear the people complaining except in these forums.

In the end

• You appear to see no reason for a change(s)

Far from it. I welcome change. I work in IT. Which changes all the time.

• I see reasons for some changes

We all do, just IMHO your changes make no sense. You want a universal app for messages. Build one. You're free to do it. I'm sure you will make a lot off of it.

• Others like the EU see reasons for a lot of changes

You should change this to standards. They seek standards. And sharing lots of sharing.

It will be interesting as this moves forward.

That's for sure

 

[macar00n]

I'm saying that in 2012 the iPhone was ok, Android was rubbish and Windows Phone made them both look like dinosaurs.

In 2022 the iPhone is great and Android is great.

Cool so if the iPhone isn't great enough, buy an Android phone and stop trying to make laws to change the iPhone. Thanks

 

[macar00n]

Considering This hasn’t happened to android or any store on the planet. Then why would we expect them to do this for no financial gain? Multi homing is important to reach a broad market

what do you do currently if they remove their app and only exist on android?

Right now, if some company wants to reach iPhone users, it has to do so through Apple's secure and at least somewhat moderated app store. If this passes, the company can still reach iPhone users but by coercing them into using a crapper and less secure app store that respects privacy less

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Think apple is waiting for telegraph, signal and WhatsApp to sync up and see how they do it before apple starts to update their own messages code base.

There are already apps doing it. Currently in test flight and not officially released on iOS as the rules don’t support their functionality.

Why make all of these apps conform to a standard that will ONCE AGAIN become stale and old and in need of replacement? Let the companies innovate a better app or a better way to communicate. And if it happens to also work with old tech, cool. But they should not be tied down to it. Or forced to use it. It's no different than the EU wanting all mobile devices to standardize on USB-C. So what we can't have D or E?

DMA isn’t asking for a standard. The how is up to the market to construct. Universal standard, an API etc it’s completely free to decide as long as it is interoperable.

You said it. Governements. I don't hear the people complaining except in these forums.

The government is the people. And so far the vast majority of parties with the vast majority of voters on their side supports this.

Far from it. I welcome change. I work in IT. Which changes all the time.

We all do, just IMHO your changes make no sense. You want a universal app for messages. Build one. You're free to do it. I'm sure you will make a lot off of it.

You should change this to standards. They seek standards. And sharing lots of sharing.

Then like this would be good.

Beeper — All your chats in one app. Yes, really.

A single app to chat on WhatsApp, Telegram, Instagram and 11 other chat networks. You can search, snooze, or archive messages. And with a unified inbox, you’ll never miss a message again.

www.beeper.com

They just wait for the DMA to become law so they can take the app from iOS TestFlight and officially release it.

New EU law could spark gold rush of iMessage alternatives

As large tech platforms are asked to become interoperable

www.theverge.com

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Right now, if some company wants to reach iPhone users, it has to do so through Apple's secure and at least somewhat moderated app store. If this passes, the company can still reach iPhone users but by coercing them into using a crapper and less secure app store that respects privacy less

It’s not going to happen if you read the DMA text for side loading

DMA: significant additions made it into the final text - Euractiv

The long-waited final text for the Digital Markets Act, seen by EURACTIV, contains some unexpected last-minute changes.

www.euractiv.com

The gatekeeper shall allow and technically enable the installation and effective use of third party software applications or software application stores using, or interoperating with, its operating system and allow those software applications or software application stores to be accessed by means other than the relevant core platform services of that gatekeeper. The gatekeeper shall, where applicable, not prevent the downloaded third party software applications or software application stores from prompting end users to decide whether they want to set that downloaded software application or software application store as their default. The gatekeeper shall technically enable end users who decide to set that downloaded software application or software application store as their default to carry out that change easily.
The gatekeeper shall not be prevented from taking measures to ensure that third party software applications or software application stores do not endanger the integrity of the hardware or operating system provided by the gatekeeper, provided that such measures go no further than is strictly necessary and proportionate and are duly justified by the gatekeeper.
Furthermore, the gatekeeper shall not be prevented from applying measures and settings other than default settings, enabling end users to effectively protect security in relation to third party software applications or software application stores, provided that such measures and settings go no further than is strictly necessary and proportionate and are duly justified by the gatekeeper.

The text mandates that gatekeepers’ app stores, search engines, and social media have to respect fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory (FRAND) access to their services for business users.

IAPP

iapp.org

Perhaps read the text befor making false assumptions

 

[RadioHedgeFund]

Cool so if the iPhone isn't great enough, buy an Android phone and stop trying to make laws to change the iPhone. Thanks

We wouldn't need sideloading if Apple was more loose with its App Store policies. It blocks apps from accessing the file system and executing code which makes emulators illegal. Over on Android the Play Store has some brilliant emulators.

But I want a phone with emulators and Apple Arcade.

 

[macar00n]

We wouldn't need sideloading if Apple was more loose with its App Store policies. It blocks apps from accessing the file system and executing code which makes emulators illegal. Over on Android the Play Store has some brilliant emulators.

But I want a phone with emulators and Apple Arcade.

Go buy an Android phone.

 

[macar00n]

It’s not going to happen if you read the DMA text for side loading

DMA: significant additions made it into the final text - Euractiv

The long-waited final text for the Digital Markets Act, seen by EURACTIV, contains some unexpected last-minute changes.

www.euractiv.com

The text mandates that gatekeepers’ app stores, search engines, and social media have to respect fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory (FRAND) access to their services for business users.

IAPP

iapp.org

Perhaps read the text befor making false assumptions

This is just going to let in a bunch of malware that will be the fault of the same mouth-breathing users still riddled by malware on other platforms, but will be the problem of the entire ecosystem.

Maybe buy an Android phone before passing laws to make the iPhone work better for you at the expense of the vast majority of its users

 

[RadioHedgeFund]

Go buy an Android phone.

I already did. I use Google services on my iPad Pro because Apple don't live in 2022 where users need to access their data on a variety of devices. I don't have the option of a Mac at work so use a high-end Windows PC. I need a cloud service that lets me access and edit my data in a browser so I can go between my Pixel 6, iPad Pro, Chromebook and Windows PC. iCloud.com is a bit of a joke at this point and won't let me even create a reminder let alone edit a photograph.

 

[I7guy]

There are already apps doing it. Currently in test flight and not officially released on iOS as the rules don’t support their functionality.

Maybe they will stay in testflight forever, or imessage won't be part of it. Who knows such things?

DMA isn’t asking for a standard. The how is up to the market to construct. Universal standard, an API etc it’s completely free to decide as long as it is interoperable.

SMS is the standard...isn't it?

The government is the people. And so far the vast majority of parties with the vast majority of voters on their side supports this.

What? The government is for the people as long as they get something out of it, lining their pockets. The "vast" majority support this? Where?

Then like this would be good.

Beeper — All your chats in one app. Yes, really.

A single app to chat on WhatsApp, Telegram, Instagram and 11 other chat networks. You can search, snooze, or archive messages. And with a unified inbox, you’ll never miss a message again.

www.beeper.com

They just wait for the DMA to become law so they can take the app from iOS TestFlight and officially release it.

The end of security for imessage.

New EU law could spark gold rush of iMessage alternatives

As large tech platforms are asked to become interoperable

www.theverge.com

 

[Sophisticatednut]

This is just going to let in a bunch of malware that will be the fault of the same mouth-breathing users still riddled by malware on other platforms, but will be the problem of the entire ecosystem.

Maybe buy an Android phone before passing laws to make the iPhone work better for you at the expense of the vast majority of its users

How? Apple is allowed to set a reasonable security standard for the functionality?

Maybe they will stay in testflight forever, or imessage won't be part of it. Who knows such things?

iMessage is already a part of it. It’s just apples store policy that stops them.

SMS is the standard...isn't it?

SMS isn’t a standard and EU isn’t calling for a standard. On iOS iMessage is the only one that can receive sms.

What? The government is for the people as long as they get something out of it, lining their pockets. The "vast" majority support this? Where?

is currently expected that the representatives of EU member states will approve the formal text of the DMA at the Competitiveness Council on 9–10 June and the European Parliament envisages a plenary vote on the DMA in July

Aka: democratic vote

The end of security for imessage.

No evidence for that claim

 

[I7guy]

How? Apple is allowed to set a reasonable security standard for the functionality?

iMessage is already a part of it. It’s just apples store policy that stops them.

SMS isn’t a standard and EU isn’t calling for a standard. On iOS iMessage is the only one that can receive sms.

is currently expected that the representatives of EU member states will approve the formal text of the DMA at the Competitiveness Council on 9–10 June and the European Parliament envisages a plenary vote on the DMA in July

Aka: democratic vote

No evidence for that claim

We clearly disagree on such matters. But different strokes for different folks.

imessage,imo, is a value add product the government has no business in regulating. And whether imessage gets opened up or not we will see in the future. And whether Apple let's imessage get opened up will be interesting. It could kill it in the EU.

SMS is clearly the lowest common denominator.

Give someone the decryption keys and yeah they can decode your message.

 

[BaldiMac]

How? Apple is allowed to set a reasonable security standard for the functionality?

Sure would be hilarious solution if Apple allowed third-party app stores, but still required the same app review, the same platform rules, and the same 15-30% as a "platform fee". Maybe bump the fee up a little to support the extra administrative costs.

iMessage is already a part of it. It’s just apples store policy that stops them.

And the law. It's still illegal to access to a computer system without permission.

SMS isn’t a standard and EU isn’t calling for a standard.

SMS is a standard. It was created by standards bodies.

SMS - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

On iOS iMessage is the only one that can receive sms.

Not quite. iMessage and SMS are different protocols that are supported by the Messages app. It also supports MMS.

 

[macar00n]

How? Apple is allowed to set a reasonable security standard for the functionality?

How will it be less secure if I or other users have to give personal and payment information to some random third party in order to download an app from a third party app store? Is that your question?

Apple did set a reasonable security standard. The standard is, Apple collects our personal info and doesn't use it in a scumbag way, and we give our payment info to Apple and they don't lose it in a data breach.

Go get an Android phone. The choice you want already exists without worsening the iPhone

 

[Beautyspin]

How will it be less secure if I or other users have to give personal and payment information to some random third party in order to download an app from a third party app store? Is that your question?

Apple did set a reasonable security standard. The standard is, Apple collects our personal info and doesn't use it in a scumbag way, and we give our payment info to Apple and they don't lose it in a data breach.

Go get an Android phone. The choice you want already exists without worsening the iPhone

Apple collects the same data that Google collects on iOS and uses it in the same scumbag way. Open your eyes and stop drinking the koolaid.

Does Apple Sell Your Data? Everything You Need To Know

It is completely justified if you want to know how Apple uses your data, and I think we have a somewhat complicated answer to this question

fossbytes.com

Its privacy moves are to deny others from getting the data while benefitting from the data that it can easily collect.

Apple’s privacy changes create windfall for its own advertising business

iPhone maker’s share of mobile app advertising market has tripled in six months

www.irishtimes.com

Apple is a scumbag company like all the others. At least the other companies provide you with free services for using your data. Apple takes the data and also gives the customers nothing in return.

 

[macar00n]

Apple collects the same data that Google collects on iOS and uses it in the same scumbag way. Open your eyes and stop drinking the koolaid.

Does Apple Sell Your Data? Everything You Need To Know

It is completely justified if you want to know how Apple uses your data, and I think we have a somewhat complicated answer to this question

fossbytes.com

Its privacy moves are to deny others from getting the data while benefitting from the data that it can easily collect.

Apple’s privacy changes create windfall for its own advertising business

iPhone maker’s share of mobile app advertising market has tripled in six months

www.irishtimes.com

Apple is a scumbag company like all the others. At least the other companies provide you with free services for using your data. Apple takes the data and also gives the customers nothing in return.

Yes, and you're saying we can trust random third parties to be equally or more secure and equally or more respectful of our privacy?

 

[BaldiMac]

Apple collects the same data that Google collects on iOS and uses it in the same scumbag way. Open your eyes and stop drinking the koolaid.

Does Apple Sell Your Data? Everything You Need To Know

It is completely justified if you want to know how Apple uses your data, and I think we have a somewhat complicated answer to this question

fossbytes.com

Its privacy moves are to deny others from getting the data while benefitting from the data that it can easily collect.

Apple’s privacy changes create windfall for its own advertising business

iPhone maker’s share of mobile app advertising market has tripled in six months

www.irishtimes.com

Apple is a scumbag company like all the others. At least the other companies provide you with free services for using your data. Apple takes the data and also gives the customers nothing in return.

Your own article refutes your point.

"You Should Also Know: A recent report by 9to5Mac says that Google collects over 20 times more data from Android than what Apple collects from its iOS UI. It comes as no surprise as Google’s own privacy policy, which you can read here, tells all about how everything from Maps to YouTube is used to track you."

 

[Beautyspin]

Your own article refutes your point.

"You Should Also Know: A recent report by 9to5Mac says that Google collects over 20 times more data from Android than what Apple collects from its iOS UI. It comes as no surprise as Google’s own privacy policy, which you can read here, tells all about how everything from Maps to YouTube is used to track you."

Apple does not have access to data on Android.
Apple and Google collect the same data on iOS.
How's maps supposed to function without tracking you? So, Apple maps do not track you?
Go figure.