EU Proposes to Force Apple to Switch iPhone, iPad, and AirPods From Lightning to USB-C

[I7guy]

Unregulated Lightning cable pose a potential for fire hazard and wiretapping.

Hence, Public Safety.

Well if we are going to by hyperbolic. Regulated USB-C means the government can force wiretapping components into the connectors.

 

[deeddawg]

Well, more or less as lighting is unable to reach usb-c data transfer speed.

so usb-c in iphones would be awesome in order to transfer large data to computer as videos or backups.
not to talk the huge compatibility with peripherals it could bring

Don't ignorantly conflate connector type (Lightning / USB Type C) with data speed / protocol (USB2.0, USB3.x, etc)

Apple's done USB3.0 over Lightning - see the 2015 ipad pro.

USBC charging cables with maximum USB2.0 data speeds are pretty common.

You do realise lightning only manages 480Mbps as it's based on USB2 standards, and cannot support high wattage charging because it's simply not built that way.

and yet USB3.0 has been done over Lightning.

iPad Pro's Lightning Port Supports USB 3.0 Transfer Speeds, New Adapters in the Works

Apple's larger-screened iPad Pro includes a Lightning port that's capable of supporting USB 3.0 speeds, according to both an iFixit teardown...

www.macrumors.com

 

[beanbaguk]

The gov’t should never poke their nose in product design decisions unless there’s a public safety issue involved. Ever. Full stop. The only possible outcome is stifling of innovation which hurts the public in the long run. This is the problem with politics today… too many narcissistic politicians who think they know what’s best for everybody.

It's hardly the outcome from a narcissistic politician. It's been an ongoing issue for about 10 years, and the industry has refused to take any action.

They were warned, they ignored, regulatory bodies kicked in.

And the only loss is the corporate profits Apple have made through their MFi program on cables.

Plus, if you wish to live somewhere where there are no rules governed by politicians, you are living in the wrong world entirely!

and yet USB3.0 has been done over Lightning.

iPad Pro's Lightning Port Supports USB 3.0 Transfer Speeds, New Adapters in the Works

Apple's larger-screened iPad Pro includes a Lightning port that's capable of supporting USB 3.0 speeds, according to both an iFixit teardown...

www.macrumors.com

With a specific MFi certified lightning cable.....(profit to Apple).

What is even more hilarious is the rhetoric on that thread (and then I look at the lack of foresight in today's crowd as we're still sitting with lightning).

🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣

This is infuriating. Why not just get rid of the stupid lightning port and move across to usb-c?!

Brilliant. I remember FW on the first iPod, which was incredible. Going down to USB was ridiculous.

I can't wait.. another adapter to add to my list.

Probably the only redeeming feature on the entire product.

I remember it taking ~4 hours to sync my 23GB music library to my old 3GS. So glad those days are over.

Hmmm. iPhone 7 USB3 speed. Why not TB 3.0? It is a lightning cable, isn't it?

it better have USB 3.0 speeds for a "Pro" model and for that price

Intel leak reveals Thunderbolt 5 could offer 80Gbps USB-C ports

Twice as fast as Thunderbolt 4.

www.theverge.com

Yup. I call that a total lack of innovation.....

Meanwhile, the fanboys dance around the Lightning fire! 🔥

 

[jlc1978]

You would trade smaller port size over not having to carry separate cable and charger? Plus, the difference would have smaller than you may think.

Yes. Wireless, however, is the way to go.

They have no power over UK because UK left, not the other way around. Besides, UK always pretended it was not actually part of the EU anyway. But it’s not the same in the rest of Europe who actually follow the rules and work together and all that.

I'm not sure what EU you live in, but the one I'm familiar with seems to argue over a lot of things, complain that other states don't follow the rules, spend too much or are too stngy, etc.

Because that was never the way the market worked. Regulation has been a central figure in the US economy, especially since the Great Depression of the 1920s. The language that companies use suggests that regulation is something new, foreign, and evil. Wonder why you have seatbelts in your car? Regulation. Why you have grounded outlets in your house? Regulation. No asbestos in your kids new school building? Regulation.

While companies resist regulation ultimately it benefits them by making it harder for competitors to enter a market, or even monopoly positions. All those car safety regulations, while they helped public safety, also ensured car makers won't have cheaper competition in their market due to the costs of compliance.

And voltages.

Yes, 120 volts worldwide and 60 cycle.

And go Metric.

Certainly.

If there is a line of USB-C iPhones, it’s cheaper for Apple just to use that exclusively. But, the key is to force them to have a USB-C on-device not via an adaptor.

Nothing I can see prevents them from using an adaptor, a non standard pinout for the plug, or simply going wireless.

 

[0924487]

What about them? They're important, but if a need arises for a tech company to have a more waterproof port, or a more durable port thaf doesn't wiggle around like a crappy dollar store electronic device, there should be laws preventing them from using it? Laws made by people that don't understand technology? Lol

Law can mandate that a new port must be approved and adopted by ISO or IEC, and at the same time, the old port is deprecated. Companies who continue to use the deprecated port will need to pay a punitive royalty that exponentially grows every months.

It‘s like LTE technology, where a lot of companies and research institutions contribute to the pool of patents, but in this case royalty-free specification proposals. For example, Bluetooth has a non-profit SIG or Special Interest Group overseeing its development.

Yes, 120 volts worldwide and 60 cycle.

The world uses 220~240 V as a standard, and there is a lot of benefit to that. One being lower current for big applications. The only reason why the US cannot change is budgetary. The only reason Canada doesn’t switch is because the US can’t switch.

Nothing I can see prevents them from using an adaptor, a non standard pinout for the plug, or simply going wireless.

It‘s easy to stipulate that the included USB-C port must be the primary port that can be used exclusively for all functionalities, and on-device.

USB-C receiver is a male, the Lightning receiver is a female. It’s not possible to design a port that can handle both.

 

[I7guy]

Intel leak reveals Thunderbolt 5 could offer 80Gbps USB-C ports

Twice as fast as Thunderbolt 4.

www.theverge.com

Yup. I call that a total lack of innovation.....

Meanwhile, the fanboys dance around the Lightning fire! 🔥

Dancing, not dancing is irrelevant. The point is government forcing product decisions that really aren't of a product safety viewpoint, which imo, this type of micro-regulation will not turn out for the betterment of consumers.

 

[beanbaguk]

Dancing, not dancing is irrelevant. The point is government forcing product decisions that really aren't of a product safety viewpoint, which imo, this type of micro-regulation will not turn out for the betterment of consumers.

Your opinion. I've no idea where you reside, but not all EU regulation is bad. I strongly believe this IS a huge benefit to the consumer and will put an end to Apple's MFi cable nonsense (for starters).

An example where "micro-regulation" has already impacted users is the UK's dumb decision to leave the EU now costing consumers small fortunes in phone bills, as operators are now rolling back antiquated roaming tariffs. The EU set standards, forcing companies, not to rip off consumers. In that time, they continued to make massive profits. Now the UK is no longer part of that union, operators have decided to charge consumers more and only to the benefit of the corporation. The consumer loses everything and ends up paying more. The corporation reaps bigger profits.

And, let's not forget, the EU warned tech companies this would happen if they didn't get their act together (almost a decade ago). Tech companies ignored this and now they're paying the price.

A win for the consumer in so many ways.

Go EU!

 

[0924487]

Well if we are going to by hyperbolic. Regulated USB-C means the government can force wiretapping components into the connectors.

USB-C is an open standard. The governments just adopt the standard, they don’t have the power to modify the standard.

Apple’s MFI program however, is a black box.

 

[beanbaguk]

USB-C is an open standard. The governments just adopt the standard, they don’t have the power to modify the standard.

Apple’s MFI program however, is a black box.

Not only a black box, but also an expensive one. Approximately, $4 for every cable goes to Apple on each purchase.

 

[deeddawg]

Not only a black box, but also an expensive one. Approximately, $4 for every cable goes to Apple on each purchase.

So I guess when places sell five cables for $10 they're making it up on volume?

 

[beanbaguk]

So I guess when places sell five cables for $10 they're making it up on volume?

Are you sure those places are selling MFi certified cables or rip-offs?

I’ve never seen that many cables for $10 before. Three for €15 is about the norm for a cable that works so the profit margins are pretty slim.

 

[Kabeyun]

Once again; Do you realise the limitations of lightning?

• 480Mbps limit vs 10Gbps+ on USB-C (TB 4 provides 40Gbps and TB5, 80Gbps....all on the existing USB-C plug.....I know; how crummy is that! Total lack of innovation!)
• $20 for a lightning lead (MFi adds about $4 per cable that goes to Apple for licensing), vs about $10 for a USB-C cable
• Lightning supports 2.4A vs up to 5A on USB-C
• USB-C standards are supported across all modern devices. Even my BMW from 2017 has USB-C ports for power in the back.

Once again, the fanboi's are the ones holding back innovation and progress. Lightning should have died years ago, and the only reason Apple keep it is for revenue as it's a multi-million dollar revenue source.

OPEN YOUR EYES!!!

So to be clear, because apparently my eyes are closed, your position is that if a lower-specced cable is out there on the market, it should be illegal. Interesting. Insane, but interesting. Should this apply to all specs of all electronics or just cables?

 

[deeddawg]

Are you sure those places are selling MFi certified cables or rip-offs?

I’ve never seen that many cables for $10 before. Three for €15 is about the norm for a cable that works so the profit margins are pretty slim.

It was more a tongue in cheek post but to your point I've ordered myriad various cables from Amazon over the years and have yet to find a lightning cable that didn't work just fine. (and the link I provided shows a 4.4 out of 5 rating across over 11000 ratings so if they are counterfeit they apparently still seem to work fine for folks...)

In general I see no noticeable price difference in Lightning vs USBC cables here in the US - and that's with cables which won't be counterfeit such as AmazonBasics and others. Though that said I also really don't buy cables very often either, maybe since I don't abuse them they don't wear out like they do for other folks? Last one that "wore out" was due to a couple summers worth of UV exposure from being kept it at the power outlet on our dock.

So... if the cost is the same, does it matter whether Apple gets some cut vs more profit to the manuf?

 

[Kabeyun]

If you have 99 good things and 1 bad thing with few alternatives. The market forces are not strong enough to force a change, especially if you have ecosystem rent-seeking behaviour.

And why should a change be forced?

 

[beanbaguk]

So to be clear, because apparently my eyes are closed, your position is that if a lower-specced cable is out there on the market, it should be illegal. Interesting. Insane, but interesting. Should this apply to all specs of all electronics or just cables?

You eyes are shut because this isn’t the reason for the legislation.

However the argument from many is this will stifle innovation which is total clap-trap.

 

[deeddawg]

• $20 for a lightning lead (MFi adds about $4 per cable that goes to Apple for licensing), vs about $10 for a USB-C cable

No offense, but you aren't a very savvy shopper if you're paying $20 for a Lightning cable.

USBA to Lightning - $9.56

Amazon Basics ABS USB Type A to Lightning Cable Cord, MFi Certified Charger For Apple iPhone 14, 13, 12, 11, X, Xs, Pro, Pro Max, Plus, iPad, 3 Feet, White

Amazon Basics ABS USB-A to Lightning Cable Cord, MFi Certified Charger for Apple iPhone, iPad, White, 3-Ft

www.amazon.com

USBA to USBC - $9.43

Amazon Basics USB-C to USB-A 3.1 Gen 2 Adapter Fast Charger Cable, 10Gbps High-Speed, USB-IF Certified, for Apple iPhone 16/15, iPad, Samsung Galaxy, Tablets, Laptops, 3 Foot, White

Amazon Basics USB Type-C to USB-A Male 3.1 Gen2 Adapter Charger Cable - 3 Feet (0.9 Meters) - White

www.amazon.com

 

[I7guy]

Your opinion. I've no idea where you reside, but not all EU regulation is bad. I strongly believe this IS a huge benefit to the consumer and will put an end to Apple's MFi cable nonsense (for starters).

An example where "micro-regulation" has already impacted users is the UK's dumb decision to leave the EU now costing consumers small fortunes in phone bills, as operators are now rolling back antiquated roaming tariffs. The EU set standards, forcing companies, not to rip off consumers. In that time, they continued to make massive profits. Now the UK is no longer part of that union, operators have decided to charge consumers more and only to the benefit of the corporation. The consumer loses everything and ends up paying more. The corporation reaps bigger profits.

And, let's not forget, the EU warned tech companies this would happen if they didn't get their act together (almost a decade ago). Tech companies ignored this and now they're paying the price.

A win for the consumer in so many ways.

Go EU!

A lose for the consumer. Go EU! It's clearly okay to "agree to disagree". Frankly, I hope Apple goes portless in the EU. However, for all I know, Apple planned usb-c for the iphone 14.

 

[jlc1978]

Law can mandate that a new port must be approved and adopted by ISO or IEC, and at the same time, the old port is deprecated.

IIRC, the International Organization for Standardization is more process oriented, so the IEC may be more relevant. Actually, having such an organization create a standard would be a boon to companies as, in my experience, the standard eventually becomes so watered down that basically any plug would comply. Look at the IEC's electrical plugs - there is no one standard for a simple 240/50 wall plug.

Another plus is it can take years to get agreement.

The world uses 220~240 V as a standard, and there is a lot of benefit to that. One being lower current for big applications. The only reason why the US cannot change is budgetary. The only reason Canada doesn’t switch is because the US can’t switch.

Switching costs are why there never will be one standard worldwide voltage or frequency, as you point out. Frequency is more troublesome in some ways due to the way it impacts components.

It‘s easy to stipulate that the included USB-C port must be the primary port that can be used exclusively for all functionalities, and on-device.

True, but that does not mean any USB C cable will be compatible if the pinouts are different; and mandating a set of pinouts would stifle innovation. Even the USB-C plug today functionals differently and is not cross compatible in all cases.

USB-C receiver is a male, the Lightning receiver is a female. It’s not possible to design a port that can handle both.

Sure. You make a small USB-C female to Lightning male adapter that plugs in, maybe sticks out a few mm like a wart on the bottom. Problem solved and the phone is compliant. A plus is you could sell them for earlier iPhone users who want to go to USB-C.

Personally, I really don't care as long as there is an adaptor that lets me use my Lightning accessories with new iPhones.

My point is this directive does not mean we will see a universal USB-C plug that works with any cable or charger; and by the time the directive is implemented by laws and implementation period has gone by, which can be as long as 4 years from when it finally gets approved, USB-C may be old news.

 

[Frobozz]

Two questions to the Forum:

1. Is there any actual technological advantage Lightning still has over USB-C? Does it help with waterproofing, charging rates, or anything else? It’s super annoying my new Apple devices, all acquired with in the last year, use different cable standards. Why?
2. The arguement of innovation stifling must be forward-looking, because Apple already uses the USB-C standard. What I assume must happen when something else comes along, like “USB-D,” is that manufacturers must agree on a standard. Apple must not want that, but Apple could also put forward a standard.

 

[deeddawg]

Two questions to the Forum:

1. Is there any actual technological advantage Lightning still has over USB-C? Does it help with waterproofing, charging rates, or anything else? It’s super annoying my new Apple devices, all acquired with in the last year, use different cable standards. Why?
2. The arguement of innovation stifling must be forward-looking, because Apple already uses the USB-C standard. What I assume must happen when something else comes along, like “USB-D,” is that manufacturers must agree on a standard. Apple must not want that, but Apple could also put forward a standard.

#1 - the lightning male connector is a solid tab that goes into the open female socket. USB Type C male connector is a hollow shell that goes into a female connector with a thin male tab. Nominally the lightning connector could be considered more robust simply from the design.

#1a - many here are conflating the connector design with the data and power transfer protocols. Lightning has been released with USB3.0 back in 2015 but hasn't really been pushed beyond that nor have the protocols seemingly been enhanced beyond that - tough to say for sure as there's not much documentation (that I've seen, but I'm not in that business so maybe there's a library of stuff I'm unaware of...

#2 - yes, forward looking. The trouble is there's less incentive for one company to come up with a new and better connector type when they're prevented from using it to give them a competitive advantage over the other major players. This is partly why you see companies promoting government regulation and governance -- it creates barriers of entry for any potentially new and disruptive technologies.

Also consider the complete clusterf--- that is the current situation in communicating to end users just exactly what sorts of capabilities their cable with USB-C connectors supports and doesn't support.

For example consider this cable -- what about the cable tells you what sort of data transfer speed you'll see if you should pick it up off your desk rather than read the product listing?

USB C to USB C Cable 100W USB C Charger Cable, 5A QC/PD USB C Cable 6ft Type C Charging Cable, Fast Charging Cord Type C Nylon Braided Data Cable for Laptop Notebook,Samsung Galaxy,MacBook,iPad, Pixel

100W 5A Fast Charging USB C to USB C Cable(6ft) NOTE: This is the USB-C to USB-C cable not the USB-C to USB-A cable, it has the same USB-C plug on the both ends, so you need a type-C wall charger to charge your device .

www.amazon.com

 

[grandM]

#2 - yes, forward looking. The trouble is there's less incentive for one company to come up with a new and better connector type when they're prevented from using it to give them a competitive advantage over the other major players. This is partly why you see companies promoting government regulation and governance -- it creates barriers of entry for any potentially new and disruptive technologies.

There you go.

 

[Karma*Police]

It's hardly the outcome from a narcissistic politician. It's been an ongoing issue for about 10 years, and the industry has refused to take any action.

They were warned, they ignored, regulatory bodies kicked in.

And the only loss is the corporate profits Apple have made through their MFi program on cables.

Plus, if you wish to live somewhere where there are no rules governed by politicians, you are living in the wrong world entirely!

An ongoing issue for 10 years? I’ve no idea what you’re referring to. If you’re talking about lightning, Apple improved on the 10 pin connector and micro USB connectors. Why should politicians warn Apple about cables? Why should they get involved at all? If people don’t like it, they won’t buy it and Apple will adapt. It really is that simple.

I find it highly ironic that you have a picture of big brother from the 1984 commercial and yet, here you are, defending big brother and wanting more gov’t regulation over... smartphone connectors.

 

[polyphenol]

Many seem to be focussing on iPhones only - entirely understandable given where we are discussing the issues!

But let's go a bit further and think about all the other things which won't need dedicated chargers/cables. Shavers. Electric toothbrushes. Torches. Hearing aids. Power tools - DIY and kitchen. Cameras.

And safety. I have goodness knows how many chargers but it is so very easy to mis-read the specifications. And end up using one with the wrong voltage, power, polarity, plug/socket spec., even AC versus DC. Whether it damages the charger, the device, or the room is a matter of luck.

 

[I7guy]

Many seem to be focussing on iPhones only - entirely understandable given where we are discussing the issues!

But let's go a bit further and think about all the other things which won't need dedicated chargers/cables. Shavers. Electric toothbrushes. Torches. Hearing aids. Power tools - DIY and kitchen. Cameras.

And safety. I have goodness knows how many chargers but it is so very easy to mis-read the specifications. And end up using one with the wrong voltage, power, polarity, plug/socket spec., even AC versus DC. Whether it damages the charger, the device, or the room is a matter of luck.

Not real happy on having usb-c connectors on many devices. This level of micro-management inhibits innovation, especially when the next connector that a smaller version of lightning and "better" than usb-c comes along. But you can't legislate incompetence.

 

[jlc1978]

The arguement of innovation stifling must be forward-looking, because Apple already uses the USB-C standard. What I assume must happen when something else comes along, like “USB-D,” is that manufacturers must agree on a standard. Apple must not want that, but Apple could also put forward a standard.

That is an issue becasue by the time it becomes mandatory it may well be outmoded but now the EU is locked into an older standard. My guess is wireless will replace USB-C anyway so in the end it may be much ado about nothing.