EU Reportedly Planning to Charge Apple for Violating Digital Markets Act

[rafark]

If your idea for a multinational tech company is "leave a very large market", rather than comply with regulations of said market....

I bet you complain about Apple complying with Chinese regulations instead of leaving that market

 

[frownface]

I don't remember this much regulation when European mobile companies Ericsson and nokia were dominant.

On the other hand; the changes enforced by europe eventually trickle down to the rest of the world. E.g. usbc

Dunno which side to cheer for.

 

[Abazigal]

Apple said their app review and notarisation process keeps users safe.
And yet AFTER that they still approved fake password managers and apps with spyware.

👉🏻Does that prove that Apple‘s review and notarisation process is useless?

It would be useless only if Apple's app review process failed to catch even a single fake app and somehow let everything through. It's similar to how airport customs doesn't always catch every attempt at smuggling contraband items in or out of the country, even though every passenger (and their luggage) is theoretically screened.

And that's really the thankless aspect of a job like this. Every fraudulent app discovered in the iOS App Store gets huge headlines and hyped up like some massive fail on Apple's part, yet we will never know about all the problematic apps that Apple did catch at the time of review and not let through, because they by definition never made it into the hands of consumers to begin with.

Otherwise, at best, one could claim that App Review is a work in progress, no doubt there is always room for improvement, it's really only as good as the person carrying out the screening, but I find it hard to make the argument that consumers would be better off if there were no app review at all.

 

[rafark]

Inadvertently revealing the true motivation here?

Funny thing is consumers are going to end up paying these fines with price increases

 

[Abazigal]

I don't remember this much regulation when European mobile companies Ericsson and nokia were dominant.

On the other hand; the changes enforced by europe eventually trickle down to the rest of the world. E.g. usbc

Dunno which side to cheer for.

It does make you wonder how the two dominant smartphone OSes are both US companies, and we see nary a squeak from the EU these days. In fact, the tech companies being targeted by the DMA are primarily from the US.

There is good in bad, and there is bad in good. Yes, there are problems stemming from unfettered capitalism, yet at the same time, it is due to this that we see all manner of ideas being born, with the hope that the good ideas will eventually float to the top. On the flip side, I suspect the EU's complex regulatory frameworks tend to prevent start-ups from being able to scale due to the costs involved.

Regulation is really the last resort the EU has to avoid falling behind in the tech sector any more than they already are,

 

[wbeasley]

Apple said their app review and notarisation process keeps users safe.
And yet AFTER that they still approved fake password managers and apps with spyware.

👉🏻Does that prove that Apple‘s review and notarisation process is useless?

This is what about-ism.

Apple NEVER said they would catch everything. Ever.
Especially when bad actor devs deliberately hide code/functions.

But they can deactivate them remotely once they know. Because of the notarization.

It does not make notarization useless at all.

You are clutching at very small straws.

Android is much easier to install bad code.
I've seen it.
An elderly client where I worked bricked her phone. From an email link she installed.
Even the phone shop couldnt get it out of the mode they set it to.

 

[wbeasley]

I seriously wonder why some posters come here to knock Apple all day, every day.
It adds nothing to the positive conversation.
It doesnt fix the issues Apple has or are perceived to have.
It's just a wind up. Day in, day out.

Anyone with such strong opinions about "Evil Apple" and their Walled Garden should reflect on whether Apple products are for them. You know what you are buying into after decades of them selling and advertising their products.

If I didnt agree with the morals of a company, I wouldnt buy their products.
Hence I cancelled my Spotify account.
And I wouldnt buy an Epic game either.

 

[frownface]

It does make you wonder how the two dominant smartphone OSes are both US companies, and we see nary a squeak from the EU these days. In fact, the tech companies being targeted by the DMA are primarily from the US.

There is good in bad, and there is bad in good. Yes, there are problems stemming from unfettered capitalism, yet at the same time, it is due to this that we see all manner of ideas being born, with the hope that the good ideas will eventually float to the top. On the flip side, I suspect the EU's complex regulatory frameworks tend to prevent start-ups from being able to scale due to the costs involved.

Regulation is really the last resort the EU has to avoid falling behind in the tech sector any more than they already are,

Yup, makes you think.

But at the same time; China is catching up fast in the tech space. And in some areas like battery/EV technology have arguably surpassed the western countries. Social media was a western tech invention; yet china has made what is objectively the most addictive platform in tiktok.

How does US/Europe respond? tariffs & regulation.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

This is what about-ism.

Apple NEVER said they would catch everything. Ever.
Especially when bad actor devs deliberately hide code/functions.

But they can deactivate them remotely once they know. Because of the notarization.

It does not make notarization useless at all.

So… let a competitor take a crack at it.

If Apple is the best then users will vote with their money…. Unless you actually don’t believe that they will.

You are clutching at very small straws.

Android is much easier to install bad code.
I've seen it.
An elderly client where I worked bricked her phone. From an email link she installed.
Even the phone shop couldnt get it out of the mode they set it to.

And we have iPhones that have been bricked from iMessages. They are both insecure in different ways.

 

[wbeasley]

Yup, makes you think.

But at the same time; China is catching up fast in the tech space. And in some areas like battery/EV technology have arguably surpassed the western countries. Social media was a western tech invention; yet china has made what is objectively the most addictive platform in tiktok.

How does US/Europe respond? tariffs & regulation.

TikTok is addictive, users give away too much information, why anyone with a work phone needs to have it installed beggars belief.

Given China's human rights record, and given TikTok is BANNED in China... you have to wonder why... perhaps regulation is needed?

The vids on there capture and stay with you forever. Wait until employers start viewing them to see if you are a good fit... or health insurers look at lifestyle risks. And you might delete them but do they linger somewhere for security forces to leverage one day? Much of the TikToks that show up on Facebook feeds are faked body image issues and soft core OnlyFans ads. It feeds the "I want to be an influencer and make money and do nothing" attitude.

 

[frownface]

TikTok is addictive, users give away too much information, why anyone with a work phone needs to have it installed beggars belief.

Given China's human rights record, and given TikTok is BANNED in China... you have to wonder why... perhaps regulation is needed?

The vids on there capture and stay with you forever. Wait until employers start viewing them to see if you are a good fit... or health insurers look at lifestyle risks. And you might delete them but do they linger somewhere for security forces to leverage one day? Much of the TikToks that show up on Facebook feeds are faked body image issues and soft core OnlyFans ads. It feeds the "I want to be an influencer and make money and do nothing" attitude.

The original china version of tiktok is very much alive and well in china; it may just be the non-china variant is region locked out of china. I use neither so don't really know for sure.

Social media platforms and stupid people have been around a lot longer than tiktok. The difference is somehow china's secret sauce is so much more addicting. Lets be honest; if facebook/google/etc could get their hands on the algorithms that make tiktok so addictive; they'd implement it without second thought

 

[wbeasley]

The original china version of tiktok is very much alive and well in china; it may just be the non-china variant is region locked out of china. I use neither so don't really know for sure.

Social media platforms and stupid people have been around a lot longer than tiktok. The difference is somehow china's secret sauce is so much more addicting. Lets be honest; if facebook/google/etc could get their hands on the algorithms that make tiktok so addictive; they'd implement it without second thought

Yes whatever algorithm they use is the key to the product value.

And Facebook and Google are always looking at new way to capture and monetize your interactions.

Whatever you post of them is also up for longterm checking by employers... years ago I responded to a group chat thinking it was one person and HR took exception to what I said about new employees - even though the word Muppet was bandied around daily in the workplace. It was just something they could nail me on... after I'd made a bullying complaint (as per their workplace posters encouraging people to report stuff) against a secretary who fiddled rosters for her friends. Lesson learned. 😉

A year after I left that workplace I ran into a resident and took a photo with her at the local shops.
The managers came and asked her a load of questions about how she met up with me.

So dont think surveillance stops once you leave a workplace either...

 

[surferfb]

Tell that to my offline library 🤷🏻‍♂️ PWAs can have offline functionality but Apple has those semi-gimped too...



I'm not moving just because I don't like the shopping mall in my town. I'm not switching platforms just because I disagree with Apple's policies.

If getting apps elsewhere makes your phone bad, I imagine the Mac is downright awful to use.

Every Apple engineer working on this crap isn’t working on new features, fixing bugs, or making existing features better. So yeah, it’s making my phone worse.

 

[JimmyHook]

Not at all, it’s just simply a different philosophy from what’s practiced in the USA. And it gives vastly different environment. EU already are in the center of innovation in different fields, but it hasn’t existed for that long as it work currently (2009).
the freedom of individuals to compete in markets) and laissez-faire (the freedom of markets from government intervention) are separated. And Nokia is still in business fyi.

Unless EU does take active measures to foster healthy competition, firms with dominant market power (such as Apple, Microsoft, ASML) will emerge, which will not only subvert the advantages offered by the market economy, but also possibly undermine the government for their own interestas well as stifling innovation as just the bair minimum is done.
Strong economic power= political power.


EU is a democratic quasi federal union. And there’s no protectionism being enacted. The rules are equal to everyone. EU doesn’t have the power to prop up any company as its illegal for both EU and individual member states unless a new treaty is ratified, and that’s unlikely.

Ordoliberalism and social market economy. Have been practiced since day one of EU.

Germany doesn’t want French companies in their market being propped up by the French government.

Oh, so citizens in European member states vote for the folks in the European Commission, the most powerful body in the EU? No? Nice “democracy”

 

[JimmyHook]

EU is paying overtime for folks to post here lol.

 

[amartinez1660]

So why would revenue outside of the EU jurisdiction be subject? Shouldn’t it just be the revenue in the EU where this law applies that they should be fined?

That would be less money for the EU, they don’t want less, they want more. If there were to be some Moon business going on they would want a piece of that too.
You can view this all as two classes: the wealth creation class (hard workers, entrepreneurs, cleaning crew, programmers, etc… the people that bear the grunt of the taxes) and the wealth extraction class (those that receive the taxes); instead of the usual civilian and political class.

The EU is just a legal mafia shaking down innocent American companies. They are specifically targeting American companies and leaving out their own super monopolistic company Spotify.

The thresholds for falling into the DMA rules and what’s considered monopoly numbers or not have been carefully crafted to engulf the biggest American tech companies but none of the EU ones. (Source: Hardcore Software: 215. “Building under regulation”, nice story that dates back to Microsoft IE monopoly days, EU was already swinging at it)

If Apple doesn't want to follow these regulations, they can simply leave the EU market. Their marketplace, their rules.

If only there was some EU, meaning “Earth Union” that would get ahold of that monopoly that the EU (European Union) has on that marketplace! That way EarthU surveys EuroU marketplace that surveys Apple’s Marketplace.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Oh, so citizens in European member states vote for the folks in the European Commission, the most powerful body in the EU? No? Nice “democracy”

It’s a representative democracy…. In most eu states you don’t elect the PM…

But I recommend you actually learn how it works.

 

[dwaite]

True, their 400 million customers (if that’s an accurate number of apple customers) would totally justify compliance. So why propose such an interesting solution? I get the wanting to protect users, and notarize apps. Couldn’t iOS just sandbox apps? Let uses activate permissions to anything or everything or give the user choice?

Sandboxing protects against known technical attacks. But the risks are generally ones of tracking/surveillance, of hovering up personal data via local API access, consuming data plans, misleading users to share login credentials or bank account/credit card details for scams, attempting to hack local infrastructure such as routers and IoT devices, etc.

It is business processes, not technical ones, that are used to help users trust that the banking app they are launching is actually from their bank, and not a malicious party. It gets even worse once you have malicious browsers/browser extensions.

 

[wbeasley]

Sandboxing protects against known technical attacks. But the risks are generally ones of tracking/surveillance, of hovering up personal data via local API access, consuming data plans, misleading users to share login credentials or bank account/credit card details for scams, attempting to hack local infrastructure such as routers and IoT devices, etc.

It is business processes, not technical ones, that are used to help users trust that the banking app they are launching is actually from their bank, and not a malicious party. It gets even worse once you have malicious browsers/browser extensions.

Seems someone who always opposes controls "likes" your post explaining the issues and risks.
For a few, there is no risk at all allowing non-signed, sideloaded apps. You've explained the risks which everyone now faces. All because the EU forced Apple to unwind some levels of protection...

 

[wbeasley]

So… let a competitor take a crack at it.

If Apple is the best then users will vote with their money…. Unless you actually don’t believe that they will.

And we have iPhones that have been bricked from iMessages. They are both insecure in different ways.

There is a competitor already. It's call Android.

And yet people still buy large numbers of Apple devices... funny that, maybe the ecosystem and focus on protection is worth paying more to them?

Bricked iPhone from a text:
Can a bricked iPhone be fixed?

Reviving a bricked iPhone or iPad. Connect the bricked iPhone or iPad to your computer using a compatible cable. Launch Finder on your Mac (with macOS Catalina or later). Alternatively, you could use iTunes on your Windows PC or Mac with macOS Mojave or earlier.3 June 2024

The Android phone I saw and tried to help a client with could not be fixed by connecting to a computer.
Even the phone shop could do nothing be sell her a new phone.
Big difference...

 

[wbeasley]

It’s a representative democracy…. In most eu states you don’t elect the PM…

But I recommend you actually learn how it works.
View attachment 2389538
View attachment 2389537

and yet after all the pretty pictures of process, all we care about is the EU is fining Apple based on Worldwide sales not EU sales and seem to be acting protect a few dodgy, whiny EU companies who are already on the app store and have customers because the can install a free app and sign up outside with Apple making no money for all the tools and environment they give away for free to them.

The customer isnt saving money or being better served/protected by scammers because of the changes.

It is purely about money.

 

[cjbryce]

It sounds terrible, but what would happen if Apple left the EU market? A solid billion is a lot to be fined for non-compliance. I respect the spirit of EU regulations to open up closed systems, to promote standards, and to protect user privacy. I wonder if the EU is too ambitious; their regulations are sometimes challenging to comply with. I’m referring to GDPR… this I’m unsure of. I hear many battles with the EU and anti-competitive practices, but at some point, switching to leave a market will become a viable option.

Leaked EU Document Could Spell Major Changes for App Store, Messages, FaceTime, Browsers, and Siri

Erm, pull out of a market consisting of circa half a billion relatively affluent potential customers? Not a chance. Even threatening it would be insane as everyone in the room would know it's a very hollow bluff.

forums.macrumors.com

 

[Beautyspin]

Look how long the EU/Ireland?Apple has dragged on with $13 Billion.

Those were ex-post regulations. These are ex ante regulations. The chances of these getting resolved quickly are high and mostly in favor of the government as the ex-ante regulations specify the desired outcomes and the companies have to self-certify that they are compliant in delivering those outcomes.

Nothing in the DMA prevents Apple from exiting a business either, they could, rather than be forced to sell, choose to close the App Store. If they are going to lose it anyway, unless they get a good enough price that may be a better option. Actually, closing it might be the best way to achieve the DMA's goals since it would force developers to find new stores, thus increasing the competitive nature of the market place as stores vie for developers and developers seek ways to stay connected with their customer base. Now they no longe have to compete with the 800 lb gorilla.

My point was that if Apple did sell it, any company with the money to be able to buy it is likely to run into the same issues Apple does.

Forcing the sale to a higher bidder, is, IMHO, a Pandora's box best left closed.

DMA will tell Apple to sell parts of its business. Imagine MS, epic, or some other company buying it. Why will there be a problem? If Apple does not allow the Appstore access to its APIs, then there will be no apps and hence there will be no buyers for iPhones. If the charge the company for API access, then the true market value of the APIs will be known to all. Apple has to be careful it will not price its APIs so that its HW business will tank.

You missed my point about federal vs confederation political systems. As a federal system, the US can react quite quickly if they want since the do not need state approval, vs a confederation where each state has a say in actions and can hold them up if they want to.

As for 100 billion, Apple at one point had over 200 billion in cash reserves alone.

Personally, while the fine potentials sound large, it would be interesting to see how those fines will be enforced; if only for the political ramifications. I suspect the EU would be as upset about the US fining an EU company 100 billion as vice versa.

I see no reason to believe the EU will blink first. Apple has already blinked first in a couple of cases (The Dutch ACM case, The Spotify case, The reinstatement of EPICs account, etc.,)

The issue becomes what is compliance. A company does X. The EU doesn't like it so the do Y. At some point, there needs to be a regulatory mechanism to get approval to remove uncertainty and the threat of fines. Uncertainly and vague outcomes are problematic, IMHO, from a regulatory sense.

The EU will explain clearly to Apple how it is failing to comply. If Apple does not correct its behavior, then the fines will start. It is all in Apple's hand whether it wants fines or whether it wants to comply.

And while Apple would not leave the EU, some companies, do to the GDPR, block website access from the EU and or have all those annoying popups to comply.; which gets to my point about collateral damage.

Yes, there is some collateral damage here too. Apple's revenue from Appstore might shrink but there can be a positive outcome for Apple. Because it becomes less walled garden type, some of the premium Android phone buyers might opt for iPhones and hence their sales may increase.

 

[wbeasley]

Leaked EU Document Could Spell Major Changes for App Store, Messages, FaceTime, Browsers, and Siri

Erm, pull out of a market consisting of circa half a billion relatively affluent potential customers? Not a chance. Even threatening it would be insane as everyone in the room would know it's a very hollow bluff.

forums.macrumors.com

thing is Apple dont have to leave... there is still one option that satisfies the problem and puts it somewhere else...

Let iOS device users choose to run Android.

Apple give people the choice as per EU directive.
And any issues then become Android's problem not Apples.

And Android can be a monopoly... so much for "this measure is create user choice and competition" 🙂

What really worries the EU is that all these efforts and changes may still not be enough.
No matter what numbers they finally settle on (and let's be clear, they should have had those numbers in the initial directive), you STILL cant make people use those alt app stores.

Many here tell us "not to worry, it wont affect you", "dont use the alt stores" (ignoring everyone is running code that has been changed to allow the EU requests already no matter where you live).

Even if all the alt store and payments were done for FREE, people have had more than a decade where they trust Apple with their credit details and know the store. They know apps are vetted and approved and rogue ones pulled. The original store has traction and stickiness. It offers a wide range of apps that suit most people's needs.

If alt stores attract only 1% of users, are they viable?

It's well known to disrupt a market you need to offer something so much better: ZIP drives became trendy storage because they were 100 times more capacity than a floppy disk. USB 3.0 is 10-20 times faster to copy files. 4K TV is 4 times the pixels of regular FHD. It doesnt matter if you can actually see much difference. It's emotional. It plays on your need to justify upgrades. There needs to be a sufficiently high motivational number somewhere to justify change.

I see little appeal of an alt app store that isnt cheaper, makes you install another app store, makes you add your credit details, unknown trust issues... this isnt the huge increase to incentivize users.

Apple even caved in on emulators on iOS.
This was by far the biggest/noisiest group wanting sideloading and alt stores.
Now they have no need for an alt app store. 😉

 

[wbeasley]

Those were ex-post regulations. These are ex ante regulations. The chances of these getting resolved quickly are high and mostly in favor of the government as the ex-ante regulations specify the desired outcomes and the companies have to self-certify that they are compliant in delivering those outcomes.


DMA will tell Apple to sell parts of its business. Imagine MS, epic, or some other company buying it. Why will there be a problem? If Apple does not allow the Appstore access to its APIs, then there will be no apps and hence there will be no buyers for iPhones. If the charge the company for API access, then the true market value of the APIs will be known to all. Apple has to be careful it will not price its APIs so that its HW business will tank.

I see no reason to believe the EU will blink first. Apple has already blinked first in a couple of cases (The Dutch ACM case, The Spotify case, The reinstatement of EPICs account, etc.,)

The EU will explain clearly to Apple how it is failing to comply. If Apple does not correct its behavior, then the fines will start. It is all in Apple's hand whether it wants fines or whether it wants to comply.

Yes, there is some collateral damage here too. Apple's revenue from Appstore might shrink but there can be a positive outcome for Apple. Because it becomes less walled garden type, some of the premium Android phone buyers might opt for iPhones and hence their sales may increase.

Seriously, the last paragraph?

Android users are going to buy Apple phones in huge numbers to make up for lost revenue just because of this change?

More likely cost of living issues will drive more purchases of middle level phones on all platforms.
And people dont swap easily.
When your info lives in the cloud it is easy to upgrade on the same platform.
Less easy to move between them. People do it.
But most non-tech people stick with what they know to avoid any pain points.