EU to Accuse Apple of Unfairly Blocking Third-Party Access to NFC Payment Technology on iPhone

[BaldiMac]

Learning a new skill > paying someone to do the job for you. Taking time to learn how your car works and how to fix it is not only a rewarding endeavour but can save you a lot of money or indeed make it if you also fix others cars for them.

You're just projecting your own values onto other people. I do work that's valuable and fulfilling to me and couldn't care less about working on a car. And I certainly don't want to spend time worrying about the security of my phone.

The desktop security model has cost us trillions because people couldn’t be bothered to learn how they operate. I have ran Windows for 30 years alongside Mac OS. I have never bothered with antivirus and have never had a security breach because I bothered to learn how to my computer works and how best to avoid security issues in the first place.

Blaming untrained individuals for a flawed model and malicious actors is ridiculous.

 

[PlayUltimate]

Learning a new skill > paying someone to do the job for you.

there are many things in this world that I have little skill in, or have no desire to learn, or do not have time to execute. I’d rather take my car in for an inexpensive oil change than do it myself. I’d rather pay a contractor to do a construction project because they are good at their job. And they have the tools and employees to do it well. Apple’s closed system makes it so I do not have to know the details of how my phone/computer work. Some of the money that we pay Apple goes for them making decisions about how to keep my phone and data safe; I don’t necessarily want to know how to do that.

 

[RadioHedgeFund]

You're just projecting your own values onto other people. I do work that's valuable and fulfilling to me and couldn't care less about working on a car. And I certainly don't want to spend time worrying about the security of my phone.


Blaming untrained individuals for a flawed model and malicious actors is ridiculous.

These are not untrained individuals; these are individuals that have been gaslighted by Apple into thinking that anything that systems that have worked flawlessly on Android for over a decade and on regular computers since the Babbage Differential Engine in 1822 are somehow evil.

Frankly this argument is becoming tiresome. Computers and the tech industry were never designed to be closed systems ran like a church with one entity telling you what you can and cannot do. Just as mankind grew up from the superstition of the past once scientists of the day started peering behind the curtain, just so must the current tech industry.

Argue all you like but the facts prove themselves: sideloading on Android is fine for those that bother and nothing to worry about for those that don’t. The open NFC system which lets you do everything from use PayPal in a grocery store to writing Amiibo code to 3rd party tags is fine and secure. Email has been an open-ended messaging system for decades and is fine. It has just as many scams as WhatsApp, Telegram and SMS but remains decentralised.

None of these things compromise security on Android and they won’t on Android. Wake up and stop being spoon fed everything by Apple, a company that I still adore. They make really cool stuff!

 

[I7guy]

These are not untrained individuals; these are individuals that have been gaslighted by Apple into thinking that anything that systems that have worked flawlessly on Android for over a decade and on regular computers since the Babbage Differential Engine in 1822 are somehow evil.

Gaslighted? Think for yourself. Buy android.

Frankly this argument is becoming tiresome.

It has.

Computers and the tech industry were never designed to be closed systems ran like a church with one entity telling you what you can and cannot do.

Incorrect. Software design is software design. If you want open software there are ways to achieve that.

Just as mankind grew up from the superstition of the past once scientists of the day started peering behind the curtain, just so must the current tech industry.

People who decry the current situation, could simply develop their own hardware and software and then give it away for the taking.

Argue all you like but the facts prove themselves: sideloading on Android is fine for those that bother and nothing to worry about for those that don’t.

Exactly. Sideload in android all you want.

The open NFC system which lets you do everything from use PayPal in a grocery store to writing Amiibo code to 3rd party tags is fine and secure.

Xactly, androids open nfc is there for the taking.

Email has been an open-ended messaging system for decades and is fine. It has just as many scams as WhatsApp, Telegram and SMS but remains decentralised.

None of these things compromise security on Android and they won’t on Android. Wake up and stop being spoon fed everything by Apple, a company that I still adore. They make really cool stuff!

Cool, so go to android and leave iOS alone.

 

[RadioHedgeFund]

Cool, so go to android and leave iOS alone.

I use a Pixel 6 alongside an iPad Pro and a Windows 11 laptop.

It would be nice to have a phone that ran emulators and iWork alongside each other. Heck, someone could probably build an iPhone OS emulator that ran abandonware apps outside Apple’s checks and balances.

 

[BaldiMac]

These are not untrained individuals; these are individuals that have been gaslighted by Apple into thinking that anything that systems that have worked flawlessly on Android for over a decade and on regular computers since the Babbage Differential Engine in 1822 are somehow evil.

Nope. You're just rewriting history through selection bias. Malware existed when hardly anyone used Apple products. And Android is certainly not flawless.

Frankly this argument is becoming tiresome. Computers and the tech industry were never designed to be closed systems ran like a church with one entity telling you what you can and cannot do. Just as mankind grew up from the superstition of the past once scientists of the day started peering behind the curtain, just so must the current tech industry.

Except you're not the arbiter of what other people want from the tech industry.

Argue all you like but the facts prove themselves: sideloading on Android is fine for those that bother and nothing to worry about for those that don’t. The open NFC system which lets you do everything from use PayPal in a grocery store to writing Amiibo code to 3rd party tags is fine and secure. Email has been an open-ended messaging system for decades and is fine. It has just as many scams as WhatsApp, Telegram and SMS but remains decentralised.

None of these things compromise security on Android and they won’t on Android.

Those aren't facts. They're unsupported opinions.

 

[RadioHedgeFund]

Except you're not the arbiter of what other people want from the tech industry.

Faster horses by the sounds of it.

 

[BaldiMac]

Faster horses by the sounds of it.

That's just condescending. Again, there's more to value in this world than a computer.

 

[RadioHedgeFund]

That's just condescending. Again, there's more to value in this world than a computer.

Nah man, It’s just harmless internet banter. It’s not like anything we say here has any real credit or indeed is a substitute for a proper physical discourse on the subject.

It’s like any other forum debate: we agree to disagree and go in peace.

 

[Hrvoyay]

To me it seems people vehemently against this have no idea how this actually works on android.

So, you buy a Samsung, it comes with Samsung pay preinstalled. But say Samsung pay is not available in your country (or bank), you still have possible options, you can CHOOSE to download Google Pay. In the phone settings there’s an option “Default contactless payment service”, you CHOOSE which one you want. Lock Screen payment mechanics are the same, just the provider changes, if you so CHOOSE.

Or you could change banks. Or have several banks. Or change phone you otherwise like cause it works great generally and with your iPad/Mac just cause Apple Pay is unsupported in your bank. Or protest to your bank, some guy on Twitter suggested “asking” is the way to go.

From what I read, on this site, Apple charges 0.15% on each card transaction. Others charge significantly less. That’s the main point of dispute between Apple and banks, Apple takes a huge cut while not participating in running a card business or losses, like unpaid bills for example. Shocker, specially for App Store developers, I’m guessing.

And for me personally, I hate the Apple Watch. The only redeeming quality I see in that sensitive design, mediocre sports tracking and god awful battery life is Apple Pay. The thought of using Garmin Pay on both devices is just thrilling. Or maybe Apple Watch 8 gets a week’s battery life with proper running metrics which you can browse on desktop, iPad, anywhere with a browser. First option might be more realistic thanks to EU.

Btw, I used sidloading on Android with 0 issues. I can also live without it. Android security issues are not really an issue in EU, it’s Chinese apps that end up in news, so give up that boogie man.

 

[BaldiMac]

To me it seems people vehemently against this have no idea how this actually works on android.

So, you buy a Samsung, it comes with Samsung pay preinstalled. But say Samsung pay is not available in your country (or bank), you still have possible options, you can CHOOSE to download Google Pay. In the phone settings there’s an option “Default contactless payment service”, you CHOOSE which one you want. Lock Screen payment mechanics are the same, just the provider changes, if you so CHOOSE.

I don't think anyone has a problem with adding this functionality. I've said I think Apple will release it soon. People are against the idea of forcing Apple to add functionality that they don't want to enable for whatever reason. (Apple claims security concerns. Opponents claim ********. Only Apple knows for sure.)

From what I read, on this site, Apple charges 0.15% on each card transaction. Others charge significantly less. That’s the main point of dispute between Apple and banks, Apple takes a huge cut while not participating in running a card business or losses, like unpaid bills for example. Shocker, specially for App Store developers, I’m guessing.

Apple's argument for the 0.15% (which I don't know how you classify as a "huge cut") is that it is more than made up for with the decrease in fraud.

And it's not a problem for consumers in any significant way.

 

[Hrvoyay]

Well, when the reason why Apple (or any company) doesn’t wanna do something is profit by limiting both user options and even an attempt at market competition, then anti-competitive government bodies have to step in.

Messing around with features (iMessage is a feature, I’d say) is evil interference, making them open up to competition in for-profit services not so much. Apple would remove Spotify in a heartbeat if it wasn’t against their interest, but for loss of users, and courts/governments might object. Less scrutiny and noise in banking, less user interest also, but chip exclusivity is just another (ab)use.

Cost is an issue for users if your bank is a holdout and you’re stuck with a phone that doesn’t support contactless payments. Who’s to blame is up to you, both are evil and greedy for-profits, you are the only victim.

Card companies take 1-3% for the whole business they run. Apple takes nearly a tenth of that amount for mediation.

 

[RadioHedgeFund]

I don't think anyone has a problem with adding this functionality. I've said I think Apple will release it soon. People are against the idea of forcing Apple to add functionality that they don't want to enable for whatever reason. (Apple claims security concerns. Opponents claim ********. Only Apple knows for sure.)

I think people are against the idea because of how well integrated Wallet is in iOS compared to how it is implemented in Android. (Why Google got rid of the power button menu I will never know)

Apple claim security concerns but the evidence from Android suggests this isn't the case. Saying 'only Apple knows' is a kind of willful ignorance of not wanting to read between the lines. This isn't some tin foil hat nonsense; the evidence from Android literally proves Apple are full of it in this case.

They want their tight integration because they want their 0.15% which might not sound like much but Apple pay accounts for 10% of global card transactions and made them $12bn in revenue in 2020. Thats 20% of what the App Store brings in and clearly a growing revenue stream for Apple.

 

[PlayUltimate]

Does Apple get around these issues if they no longer sell iPhones and instead "lease" them via a subscriber model?