European Commission Made 'Fundamental Errors' in Irish Tax Ruling, Says Apple

[thekeyring]

What are the "routine functions" that are carried out in Ireland? Isn't this where all of Apple's EU sales are derived? - i.e. it's a shop, and if so, shouldn't the tax rate be equivalent to any other shop trading in Ireland?

I should perhaps add: I don't know if the above scheme would result in more or less tax than Apple currently pays in Ireland. Does anyone here have any information on that?

I think this is the crux of the court case.

Supposedly Ireland said to Apple "we'll offer you a lower tax rate, so you build your EU base here and we get the tax' rather than Apple being based in France or the U.K. and paying their income tax to those countries.

This would be illegal as any indie companies are at a disadvantage, having to pay a higher percentage tax rate.

However, Apple said Ireland didn't offer them a deal like this.

 

[dilbert99]

You publish your tax return first, please.

I'm not a public company and I was referring to Apples Tax rate, not Tims although I could have made it clear.
Nor do I do tax 'avoidance/reduction (tomato/tomato)' schemes

 

[Gasu E.]

Don't Apple pay their fair share of taxes in the US?

I was under the impression that everything it sold in the US was taxed there. Everything sold abroad was taxed abroad - unless Apple brings its offshore cash to the US.

Not trying to start an argument - honestly asking if there's something I've missed.

No, a company is taxed where it recognizes profits. That location an be manipulated through clever accounting.

 

[dilbert99]

Apple's tax rate is a matter of public record. Look it up if you really want to know. Tim's PERSONAL tax rate on HIS income is irrelevant here, and I think you darn well know it.

Sorry for the confusion, but I was referring to Apples tax rate. It seems like records peg this at 0.005% but Tim disputes this and doesn't set the record straight.

Would you like to link to the page where Apple does not pay 0.005% in Ireland?

 

[Gasu E.]

I'm happy to see Apple being called out on this sort of thing...but I don't see why Ireland should be the ones getting a $13b bonus when they are effectively co-conspirators!

Back taxes should be paid across the countries where Apple derived the income. "Profit-driving activities" is not R&D, it's selling the results of that R&D. You can do all the US-based R&D you want, it's selling those products to customers all around the world that results in a profit.

You are asking the right sorts of questions. But devising a truly "fair" tax system is far more complex than you imagine.

 

[ocnitsa]

Source where Apple has not paid all the tax that they owe in the US?

What is Apple's tax rate in the US right now?

In your opinion, how much is their fair share? 50%? 80%? 100%?

I know Apple had paid taxes in us and in Ireland. EU says they haven't paid enough related to profits through Irish office. Tim Cook says those profits should be taxed by US not Ireland. He didn't say we already paid taxes on that money....just that it should be covered in US. Sounds like a Swiss bank account...I have this money here that I don't have to pay taxes on in the US because it's over here, but I don't have to pay taxes on this money to you, because it should be taxed by US (but I don't have to because it's here). Is it a shell game or am I missing something?

 

[niun]

Don't Apple pay their fair share of taxes in the US?

I was under the impression that everything it sold in the US was taxed there. Everything sold abroad was taxed abroad - unless Apple brings its offshore cash to the US.

Not trying to start an argument - honestly asking if there's something I've missed.

From what I have worked out in my small brain.

Everything sold in U.S. is taxed in US..
Everything sold abroad (E.U.) is put through an IP ringer so that's it's not taxed in any country apart from Ireland. It's taxed there at 0.005% or another criminally low number thanks to the head office being there in name only.
Apple are saying that the cash offshore is supposed to be taxed at the very high U.S. tax rate if and when they bring it home so in theory they are paying whatever the U.S. corporation tax is.. Just not whilst the cash is outside of the U.S.
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This ruling is intended to extract the billions from the US Treasury and transfer it to the EU.

Bollox.
Just think how much cash the U.S. treasury would be bringing in if Apple were forced to bring that cash home?

And for any who say, "The government shouldn't be trusted with taxes, they just waste the cash". Apple are doing NOTHING with it.. That could be repairing roads, bridges, providing schools, hospitals etc...

 

[Rocketman]

This year my business had a casualty loss that gave me a large deduction. I paid zero tax as a result. The top line rate is one variable, but deductions are a large second variable that depending on R&D and other spending could make a single year have a net tax rate approaching zero.

 

[samh004]

Appeals by Apple and the Irish government have been made to the European Union's General Court, where proceedings may take up to two years to complete, after which the case is likely to go all the way to the European Court of Justice.

So essentially, don't hold your breath, you may be very much in the next stage of your life before a decision is actually made in this matter.

I'll see you in 5 years...

 

[Rocketman]

I know Apple had paid taxes in us and in Ireland. EU says they haven't paid enough related to profits through Irish office. Tim Cook says those profits should be taxed by US not Ireland. He didn't say we already paid taxes on that money....just that it should be covered in US. Sounds like a Swiss bank account...I have this money here that I don't have to pay taxes on in the US because it's over here, but I don't have to pay taxes on this money to you, because it should be taxed by US (but I don't have to because it's here). Is it a shell game or am I missing something?

That's about right. It is compliant with US and Irish tax rules and EU is sticking their nose into it. US allows it because it is effectively like an IRA. Tax deferred, and since the funds accumulate growth faster when deferred, once they are taxed the US will get more total revenue. That's the reason why IRS allows it.

 

[Macist]

Apple's given us loads of cool teach and directly and indirectly created hundreds and thousands of European jobs.

What's the EU done for us? Turned the continent that drove the modern world into one of the few places on the globe in rapid decline with virtually no growth, with EU fatcats fiddling away while Rome burns, borders unable to cope with a stampede, 50% youth unemployment in parts of the South, and caused the rise of the far-right due to their top-down dictatorial, centralised control (something that never works).

The EU can go do one.

 

[niun]

EU is sticking their nose into it

Again, no.
Be truthful. Ireland is part of the E.U. This comes under competition (Edit, read State Aid) laws that Ireland signed up to as part of the E.U.
What is being argued is that Apple and Ireland broke that law.
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Turned the continent that drove the modern world into one of the few places on the globe in rapid decline with virtually no growth

I think you are confusing the dodgy accounting of countries like Greece as being the fault of Brussels bureaucrats.

 

[CB1234]

I'm not a public company and I was referring to Apples Tax rate, not Tims although I could have made it clear.
Nor do I do tax 'avoidance/reduction (tomato/tomato)' schemes

So if you say you don't do tax avoidance, that means you are right and everyone should believe you. But if Apple says that they don't do it, then you shouldn't believe them... OK, got it.

 

[Rocketman]

Apple are doing NOTHING with it.. That could be repairing roads, bridges, providing schools, hospitals etc...

1. Apple has a duty to its owners, shareholders to manage its assets wisely which it is doing 100% legally.

2. Roads and bridges are paid for from fuel taxes and state revenues with very little coming from federal sources. Apple is the largest taxpayer in CA and further by concentrating so many employees there, they also pay massive income and fuel taxes.

3. Schools and hospitals are paid for from property taxation. The spaceship will vastly increase property tax revenues. Tens of thousands of employees same thing.

I would be interested to see a report from Apple about the taxes they pay and secondly, generate for tax jurisdictions from secondary and tertiary effects. The numbers would be staggaring.

 

[apolloa]

I already see the usual utterly utterly wrong and clueless posts about this issue, not surprising really and no point pointing out the facts as it's already been done numerous times before.

 

[niun]

1. Apple has a duty to its owners, shareholders to manage its assets wisely which it is doing 100% legally.

1. Am one. Would like Apple to pay taxes in Europe.
2 + 3. Fair point, I'm not a U.S. citizen.. What could that cash be used for in the U.S. then or does corporation tax just sit in a vault doing sod all?
In the U.K. / E.U. that money could be put to good use.

 

[canadianreader]

EU is "total political crap".

not to mention a dictatorship

 

[niun]

not to mention a dictatorship

A dictatorship that has input, votes and laws made from all member states? Interesting..

 

[Cineplex]

Blah blah blah. Just pay your taxes, Tim.

 

[szw-mapple fan]

Apple is happy to benefit from them though. Anything not to pay it's fair share in taxes in USA.

What a lovely company... such integrity.

Why do people always insist on companies paying their "fair" share? Apple as a company is obligated by its shareholders to pay the least amount of taxes possible. The only thing that can objectively determine what is a "fair share" is the tax laws in each country. Going after Apple will not solve the fundamental problems in this issue. If the EU wanted overseas companies to pay more then it should have went after the Irish tax laws when the low tax rates were enacted.

 

[beanbaguk]

So much ignorance in one place.....

 

[niun]

If the EU wanted overseas to pay more then it should have went after the Irish tax laws when the low tax rate were enacted.

Well, it did take them a bit of time to do a very deep investigation into this illegal state aid and I don't think Apple made it easy for them..

 

[thisisnotmyname]

If they drag out appeals past Brexit (or refuse payment past Brexit) does the EC ruling lose all force?

 

[niun]

If they drag out appeals past Brexit (or refuse payment past Brexit) does the EC ruling lose all force?

Brexit has no impact on this at all. It's an E.U. law, E.U. court.

 

[robeddie]

Sorry for the confusion, but I was referring to Apples tax rate. It seems like records peg this at 0.005% but Tim disputes this and doesn't set the record straight.

Would you like to link to the page where Apple does not pay 0.005% in Ireland?

THIS is the key question - and it hasn't been answered by anyone on this thread defending Tim, and Apple. If they do NOT pay the .005% as alleged, can anyone come up with a legitimate link showing the real number?