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European Commission Made 'Fundamental Errors' in Irish Tax Ruling, Says Apple
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If these taxes were actually due in the US rather than Ireland did Apple pay any tax to the US government for this revenue/profit or did they dodge that?
Regardless, I'm confident Apple will lose this case eventually and end up with a massive tax bill. I'm sure the people of Ireland will find a good use for the money.
Regardless, I'm confident Apple will lose this case eventually and end up with a massive tax bill. I'm sure the people of Ireland will find a good use for the money.
They will not pay any tax on this cash bundle until it's repatriated.
Apple will not do this until Trump slashes the corporate tax.
My understanding of all this :
- Apple declared/funnelled a lot of international revenue through Irish registered companies because of loose Irish company law.
- Apple (or their representatives) asked the Irish Government what taxes they owed, and they replied tax was owed only on the revenue relating to the Irish operations.
- If that's accurate, then Apple and Ireland are "all square", legal and above board. However, Apple has managed to get away without paying tax based on revenue generated elsewhere.
- Ireland facilitated this, inadvertently or 'wink wink' deliberately. Apple has been very good to Ireland, which means they have less incentive to tighten company law to the detriment of Apple but for the benefit of other nations.
- The entire basis of the judgement, however, is that Ireland effectively offered state aid to Apple by giving them a special deal. I believe this is false, nothing about this is specific to Apple.
- One problem is, Cook DID mention an Irish deal (which the Taoiseach Enda Kenny had to repudiate).
If that's correct, the ruling is flawed. BUT Apple and/or Ireland don't come out of this looking good. And the notion that some are presenting here in Ireland - that the Government is for some reason rejecting a €13 billion payment that we could well use - is also likely nonsense. Even if Apple is determined to owe that amount, it's hard to see why/how Ireland should be the nation to receive it.
- Apple declared/funnelled a lot of international revenue through Irish registered companies because of loose Irish company law.
- Apple (or their representatives) asked the Irish Government what taxes they owed, and they replied tax was owed only on the revenue relating to the Irish operations.
- If that's accurate, then Apple and Ireland are "all square", legal and above board. However, Apple has managed to get away without paying tax based on revenue generated elsewhere.
- Ireland facilitated this, inadvertently or 'wink wink' deliberately. Apple has been very good to Ireland, which means they have less incentive to tighten company law to the detriment of Apple but for the benefit of other nations.
- The entire basis of the judgement, however, is that Ireland effectively offered state aid to Apple by giving them a special deal. I believe this is false, nothing about this is specific to Apple.
- One problem is, Cook DID mention an Irish deal (which the Taoiseach Enda Kenny had to repudiate).
If that's correct, the ruling is flawed. BUT Apple and/or Ireland don't come out of this looking good. And the notion that some are presenting here in Ireland - that the Government is for some reason rejecting a €13 billion payment that we could well use - is also likely nonsense. Even if Apple is determined to owe that amount, it's hard to see why/how Ireland should be the nation to receive it.
I think - someone will have to correct me on this - that Apple can effectively mark this down as taxed income as it will be taxed once it's back in the U.S.
This is good info. Many of these tax haven countries are used [ab-used] to evade US taxes.
That’s fine brah. We know what you meant.
Was in a meeting today where I found out that a subsidiary of a company we were looking to deal with, buys a product cheaply somewhere in Europe. That subsidiary then sells it back to the parent company at a massivley increased cost that reduces the amount of profit they make on paper. They then pay less tax
For all those that think Apple is paying the correct tax rate think about that for a moment. This is the kind of thing big companies do. Regularly.
Apple has accounted for - but not paid - U.S. taxes on about half of its foreign earnings which have not yet been remitted to the parent company. It hasn't accounted for U.S. taxes on the other half because it intends for them to be permanently reinvested overseas. That, of course, could change if there is a tax holiday on such as-yet unremitted foreign earnings.
Arrangements of the type Apple and others use, via Ireland, effectively make profits which are not taxed in Ireland "stateless" and not subject to tax anywhere until a future event, such as a repatriation to the US, occurs.
Were these "stateless" profits to be repatriated to the US, they would be subject to US income tax at that time.
This is why the US Treasury supports Apple's argument - as there remains at least a *theoretical possibility* that these untaxed non-US profits will be subject to US taxation at some future point. The main reason, however, is because the "theoretical possibility" that they would be subject to US income tax goes down the crapper in the event that the EU argument prevails...
It's not the "political crap" Tim Cook may claim, it's a game. Companies who use these structures are rolling the dice and are simply gambling that their preferred tax position will withstand scrutiny. None of what is happening in Europe right now should be news to any multinational who chose to use arrangements like these as any tax adviser worth their salt would likely have advised that there will always be risks associated with structures like these. These risks would most likely have included whether or not there is/was sufficient substance to the arrangement in question and also the risk that the arrangements could fall foul of provisions like those the EU is now seeking to enforce.
Trump has a higher IQ than the entire world combined! The voices in his head tell him what to do!
Breaking News:
Details on the "fundamental errors" emerged this morning. It was reported that the error was largely due to file compatibility as the report itself was typed on an old PC running Windows 95, which Apple described as "alarming." The company said it had difficulties opening the document and complained that they couldn't use Pages. When asked about the complaint from Apple, the commissioner responded by saying "what is Pages?"
Apple eventually succeeded in opening the report by recruiting the iTunes for Windows team, as they are the only people at Cupertino still well versed in working with an outdated, bloated and useless software that no one in the right state of mind is still actually using. Apple then questioned the claim that the EU commission was unfamiliar with Pages by saying that millions of Macs equipped with Pages and other "amazing, incredible, stunning and well-ahead-of-its-time software" have been sold and shipped to the EU. Apple said the company was deeply disappointed that the EU commission didn't care to notice and appeared to be unaware of all those sales. Tim Cook, the CEO of Apple, promptly added - "Oh, ****... We didn't mean to say that" before quickly leaving the press conference. Some witnesses reported seeing Cook running down the hall screaming "Dongles, guys... the plan is dongles. We need to sell them more dongles. This is all political crap" It's unclear what he meant, but the commission is sure to investigate.
In the meantime, The EU commission apologized for the report errors. They stated that they had a plan to buy new Macs but didn't have enough funding because a giant corporation cheated them out of their fare share of taxes due. EU will look into this "Pages" thing right away and will expedite the review, adding that the government was "very efficient." The new report will be published in about two years
In unrelated news. I am having a slow day at work and have nothing better to do
Details on the "fundamental errors" emerged this morning. It was reported that the error was largely due to file compatibility as the report itself was typed on an old PC running Windows 95, which Apple described as "alarming." The company said it had difficulties opening the document and complained that they couldn't use Pages. When asked about the complaint from Apple, the commissioner responded by saying "what is Pages?"
Apple eventually succeeded in opening the report by recruiting the iTunes for Windows team, as they are the only people at Cupertino still well versed in working with an outdated, bloated and useless software that no one in the right state of mind is still actually using. Apple then questioned the claim that the EU commission was unfamiliar with Pages by saying that millions of Macs equipped with Pages and other "amazing, incredible, stunning and well-ahead-of-its-time software" have been sold and shipped to the EU. Apple said the company was deeply disappointed that the EU commission didn't care to notice and appeared to be unaware of all those sales. Tim Cook, the CEO of Apple, promptly added - "Oh, ****... We didn't mean to say that" before quickly leaving the press conference. Some witnesses reported seeing Cook running down the hall screaming "Dongles, guys... the plan is dongles. We need to sell them more dongles. This is all political crap" It's unclear what he meant, but the commission is sure to investigate.
In the meantime, The EU commission apologized for the report errors. They stated that they had a plan to buy new Macs but didn't have enough funding because a giant corporation cheated them out of their fare share of taxes due. EU will look into this "Pages" thing right away and will expedite the review, adding that the government was "very efficient." The new report will be published in about two years
In unrelated news. I am having a slow day at work and have nothing better to do
No, they've effectively deferred payment of U.S. taxes. In accordance with the law.
They do include deferred tax payments in their financial statements. I don't think it's for the full amount though, since some of the funds will be invested outside the U.S.
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The EU encourages tax sheltering when it is done by their members to non-members. That is where they lose sympathy from me. This comes down to sovereign states enforcing international tax/trade agreements on each other. A google of tax havens will quickly reveal that many gross offenders are EU. I am not suggesting illegal tax evasion. Only ruthless abuse within the letter of international treaty.
Apple is one of many investigations into State Aid all over the E.U. Many Governments have done dodgy deals over the years but I don't think it was or has ever been E.U. policy.
Stop the talk, just give out half of your cashes to us, we are all badly in need of money after the 2008 economic crash. You are still very wealthy after that, why should not you just simply do it!
This is not accurate. The EU has launched state aid/tax ruling proceedings against member states such as Belgium for an "excess profit" arrangement where most of the beneficiaries were reportedly EU businesses, and also launched state aid investigations with Luxembourg involving FIAT and GDF Suez/Engie (all EU headquartered businesses)
Apple denies any wrong doing in these tax matters like Samsung denies copying apple.
Both stupid stories will go on for years and Both apple and Samsung are guilty, but if you got the cash you just string it out for years and years
[doublepost=1487706703][/doublepost]
Doubt that applies to MR community average.
Both stupid stories will go on for years and Both apple and Samsung are guilty, but if you got the cash you just string it out for years and years
[doublepost=1487706703][/doublepost]
Doubt that applies to MR community average.
You know for me I don't care who does it, it sickens me.
Big companies get tax breaks which makes the playing field uneven for smaller companies. I’d love to be able to defer all of my income tax by keeping my British earnings in Sparkasse.
The scale or size is entirely irrelevant here. Either you have the decency to comply with the rules laid out for everybody or you don't.
I understand what you are saying in general, but not how it pertains to the Apple situation. They aren't getting any "tax breaks" that aren't available to smaller companies. What's stopping you from setting up your own double Irish?