European Countries Up Pressure On iTunes, FairPlay

[Gasu E.]

I hear a lot of opinions being thrown around about "which system is better." But why spout opinion when you can measure?

It would be interesting to compare how many Europeans (or Canadians) have chosen to migrate to the USA, vs. the number that have moved in the opposite direction. Anyone happen to know?

 

[Gasu E.]

Really? given the evidence, it doesn't seem that way!



******** Your observations have proven to be very incorrect.

Your standard for proof generally seems to be that you think something is true.

I happen to know a lot of Canadians that would disagree with you on many of your points (not related to Apple DRM, the political ones). Of course, most of them have chosen to live in the USA, so they are probably biased. Should all be nicely ignorant and paranoid by now, even.

 

[Gasu E.]

Really? given the evidence, it doesn't seem that way!



******** Your observations have proven to be very incorrect.

OK, my mind is open. Let's test one of my observations scientifically. I stated that you are "intransigent." You've been involved in many discussions on these boards. Can you provide any examples of where you have either changed your position as a result of a discussion here or admitted error? That would be evidence that I'm incorrect on this.

 

[Stella]

OK, my mind is open. Let's test one of my observations scientifically. I stated that you are "intransigent." You've been involved in many discussions on these boards. Can you provide any examples of where you have either changed your position as a result of a discussion here or admitted error? That would be evidence that I'm incorrect on this.

Yes, but you can do that yourself by searching for forums yourself - I don't need to prove myself to anyone. Oh, and if I did change my mind, I may not have stated on it the forums ( and why would I? I go away and think about it and may not 'report back')

EDIT: or realised I was in error - for the same reason - as above.

 

[nptski]

Wow. That brainwashing must be really effective.

That's not anything I said. must have been from a quote I was replying to.

 

[Stella]

Your standard for proof generally seems to be that you think something is true.

I happen to know a lot of Canadians that would disagree with you on many of your points (not related to Apple DRM, the political ones). Of course, most of them have chosen to live in the USA, so they are probably biased. Should all be nicely ignorant and paranoid by now, even.

I disagree with both your points.

Why would it matter if other Canadians disagreed with my views? Canada is a free country and can have what opinions they like. But I still will debate with them ( and would probably enjoy it too ) - and why shouldn't I?

People who emigrate to the u.s would probably still read their favourite 'home' news paper or online news, i.e., perhaps torontostar.ca, or news.bbc.co.uk, generally keep abreast of world events ( i'm not saying that u.s citizens wouldn't , but immigrants wouldn't become 'ignorant'! .

 

[observer]

What would meet the Norwegian demands?

This discussion seems to have descended to name-calling and uninformed twaddle. I'm uninformed, too, but I'd like to become less so.

What would Apple have to do to make the Norwegian ombudsman happy? Apple can't sell music without DRM -- by agreement with the copyright holders. So -- do they license Fairplay to everyone who wants it? Can they charge for the license? Can they charge for the Windows version of ITunes? Do they have to make a version of ITunes for every other operating system?

I'd guess that licensing Fairplay would be the solution. Then does Microsoft have to license theirs, too? Or do they have to use Fairplay?

Any guidance from Europeans as to what the law requires and permits?

 

[Gasu E.]

I disagree with both your points.

Why would it matter if other Canadians disagreed with my views? Canada is a free country and can have what opinions they like. But I still will debate with them ( and would probably enjoy it too ) - and why shouldn't I?

People who emigrate to the u.s would probably still read their favourite 'home' news paper or online news, i.e., perhaps torontostar.ca, or news.bbc.co.uk, generally keep abreast of world events ( i'm not saying that u.s citizens wouldn't , but immigrants wouldn't become 'ignorant'! .

So, when you refer to "Americans" in general, you really only mean "native born Americans", not including people who immigrate to the USA? And would that be all native-born Americans, regardless of country of origin of their parents? I'm just trying to clarify your various meanings a bit.

 

[nptski]

Underground economies!?? Define 'underground economies'!!

Err, like a previous poster highlighted - you do realise that European countries come out on the best standard of living, education, best health care in the world, right - with the states behind?

Hows the states economy doing? Hmmm... not very well..

Hows your health care? Everyone can afford health insurance? You don't mind the high price of drugs in the u.s - the HIGHEST in the world?

Glad to hear it, maybe now you can pay back some of the billions we have loaned you. It may be a while back, but if it weren't for us, most of Europeans would be speaking German. We have worked together as countries for a long time and I get a little tired of the criticism of the US and the elite view Europe seems to take of itself. We think Europe is a cool continent, we are not terribly thrilled to make the govenment into a king.

Your comment about the US economy is silly and contentious. We have a growth rate the Fed has had to cool off to restrain inflation. The stock market is at all time highs, the interest rates are now headed down, the treasury revenues are increasing, and unemployment is at an all time low.

I do like Stella beer though, so we do have some common ground.

 

[Gasu E.]

Yes, but you can do that yourself by searching for forums yourself - I don't need to prove myself to anyone. Oh, and if I did change my mind, I may not have stated on it the forums ( and why would I? I go away and think about it and may not 'report back')

EDIT: or realised I was in error - for the same reason - as above.

Of course, you don't have to prove yourself at all! You are free to make any claim you like without specific proof. I was just providing an opportunity to close the issue in a scientific manner. But it's not at all important to do so.

 

[salmon]

Ah, the liberal point of view rings through. "Level the playing field", let someone create some awesome technology and popularize it through huge investments and risks and the same folks that think the rich shouldn't be and the poor shouldn't be no matter the effort expended or risks taken, all want everything their way because it's convenient. It is very easy to fix that, buy or build your own company and you get to make the rules. Music is not data, just like it isn't vinyl or paper, it is proprietary because not everyone can do it. Lots of people think they can sing, any bartender will attest to that, but there aren't a lot of Josh Grogan's.

Ah, the elitist point of view rings through. The need to label things as "liberal" for some people is just amazing. I think they must be programmed to. Customer protection is not some left-right (although I hate the terms) ideological issue.

1. DRM is hardly a breakthrough technology. The iPod is, and iTMS is great, but what happens if that changes in the future, and someone out-innovates Apple, after you've invested in a music collection?
2. Only the rich can do what you describe - the system we have in place is designed to make the rich richer, and allow some of it trickle down to the peons who do all the work. And the only reason as much trickles down as it does is because of government regulations. (Although I have no idea what this has to do with DRM and iTMS.)
3. The music is proprietary, that's why there's copyright laws. The medium it's stored in isn't

In every other industry, keeping consumer choice is a good thing - how about phone companies for instance? If it weren't for government intervention, they'd still have monopolies. Is that good?

The bottom line is if you take away the artificial means of keeping consumers hooked (and on the other end, how musicians can get their music distributed), then companies will still have incentive to innovate and compete on things that matter to consumers - the form factor, design and functionality of their music players, and the ease of use, price and selection of the music in the stores.

And I didn't mean that I think people are idiots, it's that technology is enormously complicated. I follow it daily, and it's what I do for a living, so I can navigate the crap from the important bits. For other people, even learning to use a computer at all should be commended. That doesn't mean it's right for these companies to take advantage of that ignorance.

If someone wants to play their music, then buy the music and the device it works with, whatever that is. Apple led the way and anyone can clone their ideas cheaper, it's the ideas that have the value. I think I hear a lot of carping that now iTunes has become the standard, it should be available to all. How ridiculous, let the also-ran's create a standard. Do you have any idea how much effort it takes to become a standard? iTunes must be a good one because everyone wants to use it. Apple owns it and if you don't like it, buy your music somewhere else, really simple.

This doesn't have anything to do with either of your points:

1. iTunes would still be dominant - why wouldn't it? It's that people who have significant (to them) investments in "FairPlay" DRMd music would, if they choose, be able to buy another music player in the future, without losing their investment. I highly doubt many would at the moment, because iPods are really cool. Now, Apple still gets to differentiate themselves with nice integration and usage, which is what they are really competing on.
2. that's what patents are supposed to do, protect real innovation, although they've become an overused monster (not by accident - they are what big business can now use to crush any up-and-comer) - protecting innovation is not what a monopoly does.

I love Apple's products as much as the next person, and I'm not easily impressed. I'm also an Apple shareholder (a very, very small one ) But keep some perspective here, guys.

 

[onlytobbe]

That's not anything I said. must have been from a quote I was replying to.

Sorry about that, I just find Americans funny.

Can't really see what's all the fuzz about
1. We will follow our laws and so will Apple if they want to sell us their products.
2. Seriously, do you really care? Nah, didn't think so either.

Over and out.

 

[Stella]

Of course, you don't have to prove yourself at all! You are free to make any claim you like without specific proof. I was just providing an opportunity to close the issue in a scientific manner. But it's not at all important to do so.

LOL :-D

 

[Stella]

Oh get real... 2nd world war blah blah blah BS.

You do realise that the states has a very low opinion in the world right now?

You critise ( spelling ) Europe but don't like it given back.

Stella in north america different than in Europe! ( personally i think its better over here )!

Glad to hear it, maybe now you can pay back some of the billions we have loaned you. It may be a while back, but if it weren't for us, most of Europeans would be speaking German. We have worked together as countries for a long time and I get a little tired of the criticism of the US and the elite view Europe seems to take of itself. We think Europe is a cool continent, we are not terribly thrilled to make the govenment into a king.

Your comment about the US economy is silly and contentious. We have a growth rate the Fed has had to cool off to restrain inflation. The stock market is at all time highs, the interest rates are now headed down, the treasury revenues are increasing, and unemployment is at an all time low.

I do like Stella beer though, so we do have some common ground.

 

[onlytobbe]

if it weren't for us, most of Europeans would be speaking German. We have worked together as countries for a long time and I get a little tired of the criticism of the US and the elite view Europe seems to take of itself.

I don't like you because your grandpa did "a good thing", nor do I hate Germans because of what their grandparents did. Why would I???

We think Europe is a cool continent, we are not terribly thrilled to make the govenment into a king.

Say again?

 

[salmon]

Sad? How about the most underground economies in the world, the European model. The higher the taxes and more the goverment controls, the more underground things go. Government is the least efficient deliverer of goods and services know to man. Why, because it produces nothing. We need government, chaos is no good either, but we also need freedom to create to produce and, sad that some might think it, doing it for gain is motivating. Unequal work and production for equal gain is not realistic but it has been tried. Same old argument, remove the reward and remove the motivation. In a perfect world I would love it if it weren't that way but it isn't a perfect world. Usually it is those that don't take risk or don't have the courage to lead out that complain the loudest. We don't all have those qualities and some do, that's why everyone isn't rich. I wish I could have invented iTunes, but I didn't think of it and didn't have the means to bring it to market. It is not paronoia, it is proprietary and if anyone on this thread believes they would do it differently if it was their product, they are silly. It is easy to what-if someone else's product, actually doing it is something else.

I don't want to get too political here, but I would argue that the problem with government is when it's not democratic enough, then it's susceptible to corruption like you describe. And I think the political debate has been focused on the left-right agenda by the media to somewhat intentionally distract debate from this fact.

That's an important point I would ask people to keep in mind, as they make political choices in the future (whatever they are).

And I completely agree that incentive is needed to foster innovation and leadership, but that's hugely different then a situation whereby the act of having wealth gives you a monopoly on the ability to create it. I looked at starting a business from a great opportunity, but due to our insufficient current wealth, we would have had to give up much ownership to make it happen - we would have been doing all of the work, and taking the more substantial (in context) risk, but somebody else with more numbers in the bank would have made most of the money. Is that incentive? I don't think so, myself.

How about the RIAA - they control what and who is promoted through their monopoly, thereby giving them the ability to create extremely unfair deals for talented bands. Is that fair, or sensible? I don't think so. Same as movie theatres. There's talk about Hollywood not liking Canada because they claim movies are pirated here, and that they're thinking of delaying releasing movies. I wish they would, so maybe we can see some diversity of movies in theatres, instead of the virtual monopoly that they have.

Again, Finland is considered the least corrupt and most democratic country in the developed world, according to wikipedia article links.

Oh dear, I went and got political... or at least philosophical. Sorry.

 

[nptski]

[*]Only the rich can do what you describe - the system we have in place is designed to make the rich richer, and allow some of it trickle down to the peons who do all the work. And the only reason as much trickles down as it does is because of government regulations. (Although I have no idea what this has to do with DRM and iTMS.)

The rich do get richer and they create businesses which is where most people work. The system is design so THAT we all have a chance to make our mark and not have it all confiscated by the government.


[*]The music is proprietary, that's why there's copyright laws. The medium it's stored in isn't

So buy some blank DVD's, you are right about the medium but the medium (iPod) didn't exist as a generic without it's supply source iTunes. They were dependent on each other to succeed and they did. Would you want to give that away.


[/LIST]
In every other industry, keeping consumer choice is a good thing - how about phone companies for instance? If it weren't for government intervention, they'd still have monopolies. Is that good?

Good point, monopplies are not healthy but holding back a company by people that do not truly understand what they are doing isn't a good thing either.

The bottom line is if you take away the artificial means of keeping consumers hooked (and on the other end, how musicians can get their music distributed), then companies will still have incentive to innovate and compete on things that matter to consumers - the form factor, design and functionality of their music players, and the ease of use, price and selection of the music in the stores.

It isn't artificial, they designed a player and a site to distribute (legally) music.

And I didn't mean that I think people are idiots, it's that technology is enormously complicated. I follow it daily, and it's what I do for a living, so I can navigate the crap from the important bits. For other people, even learning to use a computer at all should be commended. That doesn't mean it's right for these companies to take advantage of that ignorance.

I agree, it amazes me the time I have spent learning about technology and I know so litte. My first GUI was a LISA and it totally blew me away. I have never beent the same since. That people will walk into frustration and difficult situations amazes me to.

This doesn't have anything to do with either of your points:

1. iTunes would still be dominant - why wouldn't it? It's that people who have significant (to them) investments in "FairPlay" DRMd music would, if they choose, be able to buy another music player in the future, without losing their investment. I highly doubt many would at the moment, because iPods are really cool. Now, Apple still gets to differentiate themselves with nice integration and usage, which is what they are really competing on.
2. that's what patents are supposed to do, protect real innovation, although they've become an overused monster (not by accident - they are what big business can now use to crush any up-and-comer) - protecting innovation is not what a monopoly does.

I suppose it would be dominant, but anyone can take someone else's hardware and clone it cheaply, they have no development costs. Once that starts apple takes a big hit on its margin for iPods. How many sane people hire or encourage someone to take their job or business? If a product has merit, it makes it to market. If "big business" is worried about it they buy the company and usually pay a lot of money for it. I know some very wealthy people that sold their ideas or product or company to "big business" and are very happy with their CHOICE to do so.

I love Apple's products as much as the next person, and I'm not easily impressed. I'm also an Apple shareholder (a very, very small one ) But keep some perspective here, guys.[/QUOTE]

 

[BuzWeaver]

That is EXACTLY what these European countries are doing- consumer protection to give consumers choice - and it not ONLY applies to Apple - it also applies to European based on line stores.




Why it is that European countries or the EU investigate a u.s company, you americans always see it as anything other what it is, i.e., consumer protection, stop anti competitive behaviour, what either the reason stated!!!

You americans are PARANOID!!!!

Did you know that the EU fines plenty of its own companies on a regular basis? No? Thought not!

The EU is just looking for their slice of the pie and wants to inject their system and exert their will for the sake of keeping their socialist followers happy.

We see it for what it is, as I originally outlined. Suggesting that Americans are paranoid because we are protecting our interest is laughable. I'm completely aware of the micro managing and meddling that the EU does. Why should I expect anything less from a group of elitist socialist?

 

[mdriftmeyer]

This is pathetic.

You don't like the way Apple keeps their hardware/software working together then don't buy either and stop wasting your time with attempts of logic and "fair play" to convince a business they must make it so that the consumer can feel warm and fuzzy before bedtime.

It's business suicide for Apple to "license" their DRM to others.

The analogies of VHS and DVD are moronic.

A small consortium designs, drafts and publishes what those standards are just like MP3 and other formats.

How they are "implemented" is left up to the entrepreneur to invent.

Stop whining and convince the EU to develop a Socialist branded iPod Killer so you can run FLAC files on it.

 

[ruutiveijari]

You don't like the way Apple keeps their hardware/software working together then don't buy either and stop wasting your time with attempts of logic and "fair play" to convince a business they must make it so that the consumer can feel warm and fuzzy before bedtime.

It's the other way around. If Apple wants to sell us their stuff they need to follow our rules. Simple as that.

We don't let the companys make the rules but do make the companys follow ours.

 

[Spritey]

random note

Just as a random note: Having lived in Europe, Canada and the USA, I've realized that the US is awesome if you have a lot of money/above average so you can buy your own health and dental insurance OR you're a corporation. If I was a corporation, there wouldn't be a doubt in my mind where to settle down!!

Europe however, is great for consumers, because they actually still have some power on an individual basis. (i.e. products break after warranty period is over: depending on the product you can apply the the consumer's expected lifetime warranty - i.e. TVs are expected to last a minimum of 5 years, if it breaks after 4, you write a letter to the seller referring to the ext. law and they are obliged to fix it, if unsuccesful, replace it. (Expected life time is either 2 or 5 years depending on product). )

(Canada on the other hand is somewhere in between)

Anyway, this is MY OPINION...

 

[BuzWeaver]

Just as a random note: Having lived in Europe, Canada and the USA, I've realized that the US is awesome if you have a lot of money/above average so you can buy your own health and dental insurance OR you're a corporation. If I was a corporation, there wouldn't be a doubt in my mind where to settle down!!

Europe however, is great for consumers, because they actually still have some power on an individual basis. (i.e. products break after warranty period is over: depending on the product you can apply the the consumer's expected lifetime warranty - i.e. TVs are expected to last a minimum of 5 years, if it breaks after 4, you write a letter to the seller referring to the ext. law and they are obliged to fix it, if unsuccesful, replace it. (Expected life time is either 2 or 5 years depending on product). )

(Canada on the other hand is somewhere in between)

Anyway, this is MY OPINION...

Don't kid yourself we have law suits here to its that we don't always turn them into a posturing contest. As far as health care in the US there are free clinics, walk in clinics and ER's people can go to for care, just ask the Mexicans.