European Countries Up Pressure On iTunes, FairPlay

[babyj]

Just close the iTunes store and see them cry. Apple does not make that much from the iTunes store and it is unlikely to affect their bottom line much.
Just shut it down and shut them up. There are others with their own proprietary scheme out there, why they don't go after them too?

IMHO they are Apple bashing, close the store. F$%* them.

If Apple did close the iTunes store to the whole of Europe (which incidentally is a bigger market than the USA) the only people that would be crying would be Apple shareholders as sales of iPods and other Apple products would collapse.

No one is picking on Apple. If this is forced through it will be applied to everyone else as well - Apple is in the spotlight as the market leader.

Plenty of other companies that have broken the rules have been hit by the EU before, Microsoft got fined €500 million (about $600 million) for anti-competitive behaviour and there is the potential for more trouble for them with Vista.

The EU does do some really stupid stuff, but at least they've got the bottle to take on any company when they step out of line. Though at present it appears to be Norway that is the most vocal in their criticism and they are not part of the EU (Europe and the EU are two different things).

 

[BuzWeaver]

If Apple did close the iTunes store to the whole of Europe (which incidentally is a bigger market than the USA) the only people that would be crying would be Apple shareholders as sales of iPods and other Apple products would collapse.

No one is picking on Apple. If this is forced through it will be applied to everyone else as well - Apple is in the spotlight as the market leader.

Plenty of other companies that have broken the rules have been hit by the EU before, Microsoft got fined €500 million (about $600 million) for anti-competitive behaviour and there is the potential for more trouble for them with Vista.

The EU does do some really stupid stuff, but at least they've got the bottle to take on any company when they step out of line. Though at present it appears to be Norway that is the most vocal in their criticism and they are not part of the EU (Europe and the EU are two different things).

The EU is a consortium of special interest groups permeated with socialist ideology and methodology. When the EU exerts its will it considered admirable, fair and is seen as leveling the playing field. In short it is a committee system disguised as a unified government system. When the US exerts its will we are seen as tyrannical bullies, international criminals with carte blanche disregard to other nations interest or 'approval'.

The EU is just looking for their slice of the pie and wants to inject their system and exert their will for the sake of keeping their socialist followers happy.

 

[Stella]

That is EXACTLY what these European countries are doing- consumer protection to give consumers choice - and it not ONLY applies to Apple - it also applies to European based on line stores.

When the EU exerts its will it considered admirable, fair and is seen as leveling the playing field.

Why it is that European countries or the EU investigate a u.s company, you americans always see it as anything other what it is, i.e., consumer protection, stop anti competitive behaviour, what either the reason stated!!!

You americans are PARANOID!!!!

Did you know that the EU fines plenty of its own companies on a regular basis? No? Thought not!

The EU is just looking for their slice of the pie and wants to inject their system and exert their will for the sake of keeping their socialist followers happy.

 

[ftaok]

Why it is that European countries or the EU investigate a u.s company, you americans always see it as anything other what it is, i.e., consumer protection, stop anti competitive behaviour, what either the reason stated!!!

You americans are PARANOID!!!!

I don't think it's paranoia. It's more experience than anything else. We've been around the block long enough to know that politicians are never looking after the consumer. They are always looking to line their own pockets and help out their buddies.

Now this may be hearsay, but I do believe that in France, airlines are required to buy Airbus planes, even if Boeing were to give them a better deal. Doesn't sound too much like consumer protection there.

Again, back on the paranoia point. I think Americans (and I'm one of them) are generally jaded and cynical. We can see these things for what they are. It's just a power grab.

For what it's worth, if the whole one-size-fits-all DRM does come about, who would determine how it's implemented? I don't trust any government or government agency deciding these standards.

slightly off topic - We in the US, and to a slightly lesser degree - Canadians, have had to deal with the FCC meddling in creating technology standards that don't have the consumer's interest in mind. Like HDTV, for example. Why are there 2 different broadcast standards? Who benefited from having 2 standards? Well, back in the early days, I've read that the TV manufacturers wanted to have one standard to support, 720p. However, Zenith was still a US manufacturer and they were still cranking out CRTs, which have been interlaced for ages. They pushed the FCC for an interlaced standard, hence 1080i. Fast forward 10 years and you'll notice that just about all HDTVs being made are progressive displays. Having the 1080i standard is a hassle more than anything. And Zenith is out of business too.

ft

 

[Rauha]

I don't think it's paranoia. It's more experience than anything else. We've been around the block long enough to know that politicians are never looking after the consumer. They are always looking to line their own pockets and help out their buddies.
ft

Maybe on your side of the Atlantic, but don't generalise it to be so on the whole planet. It's besides the point anyway, since there's no politicians involved with this issue (consumer organizations and agencies).

Now this may be hearsay, but I do believe that in France, airlines are required to buy Airbus planes, even if Boeing were to give them a better deal. Doesn't sound too much like consumer protection there.

Simply untrue. Usual american right-wing paranoia and fantasy about the french. French airlines have plenty on Boeing planes, I have personally been in one. Simple Google search will bring up truck load of links to Boeing planes and orders in France.

 

[salmon]

Apple is using DRM to sell hardware and gain a monopoly on it. Microsoft is using DRM to protect their OS monopoly. They both desperately want to control the distribution of digital content, using DRM to dictate what people will be able to buy in the future. None of this is in any way good for CITIZENS (I am not a consumer unit). What would be good for people is governments to stand up and legislate data must be in open, non-proprietary formats, so they can be free to buy the best tool for the job based on their requirements.

And you can pontificate all you want, but the average user has no concept of the ramifications of the decisions they make. I know, I spend a lot of time educating them. Nor could a reasonable person expected to understand everything about every product they buy, as they have a certain amount of trust in being able to buy things without consequences, to have a healthy market economy. DRM is sleazy and completely unintuitive. This is what MS and Apple are counting on.

This applies in other industries. Governments help to protect everybody, but ensuring products are labelled within certain standards or meet certain safety requirements. I actually think all this DRM crap is just going to end up in a lot of lawyers making a lot of money from class-action suits, myself.

I don't buy DRM'd music, nor will I buy HDMI TVs or HD/DVD or BluRay or anything else, and I encourage others to do the same. I vote with my wallet and can happily give up a movie or something if it doesn't fit my parameters. When it's available, I happily buy music in MP3 format. I also buy many DVDs that I can happily rip (still legal in Canada, AFAIK, but not that I really care). I am insulted by companies that consider me a criminal by default, nor do I want a corporation to have any more control over my life than they already do (far, far more than is appropriate).

The only issue with what Norway is doing is they it's not broad enough to apply to all technology. As an Apple shareholder, this isn't good for me, but there's a much bigger issue than that, and my hat's off to Norway for taking a leadership position :applause: - but only if it applies to MS too, and only if they keep going with it into other areas (like file and media formats).

I love Apple products, and I believe that they don't need to play these DRM games to be a successful, profitable company. They make great products that are fun to use, as opposed to the vast majority of crap out there. DRM is a distraction from this.

Oh, and as an aside, I personally greatly admire Scandinavia (and Finland) for the societies they've built, which I consider tops in the world from where I sit. I think Canada should look to their leadership.

 

[ftaok]

Maybe on your side of the Atlantic, but don't generalise it to be so on the whole planet. It's besides the point anyway, since there's no politicians involved with this issue (consumer organizations and agencies).

Who's generalizing? I was simply responding to someone's point that American's tend to be paranoid when other countries criticize/attack/maul US companies. I was adding insight to the comment.

As for politicians not being involved, that's technically true since it's only consumer agencies calling for action. But for this to pass, the government's need to get involved. Last I checked, consumer groups didn't have to power to create/modify laws. If this is different in Europe, then I stand corrected.

Simply untrue. Usual american right-wing paranoia and fantasy about the french. French airlines have plenty on Boeing planes, I have personally been in one. Simple Google search will bring up truck load of links to Boeing planes and orders in France.

OK, I stand corrected on this one. Still, I don't believe that politicians in Europe are any different than the ones in the States. They all have agendas. If these consumer groups have enough political clout, then these laws will be passed. If not, then screw the consumers.

 

[dejo]

And you can pontificate all you want, but the average user has no concept of the ramifications of the decisions they make.

As I've said before: "The average consumer is an idiot". It's an axiom of mine.

 

[Stella]

The u.s can't talk about protecting their industry- - going against the WTO and ignoring rulings how the states sees fit!!!

As for the rest, the other poster summed it up nicely!

The u.s wants globalisation - but - ONLY - on their terms.

edit: As for your claim regarding French airlines don't buy boeing - well, that was confirmed as bull - took me less than 60 seconds of searching on Google. Air France actually DO buy boeing planes - something that you can easily confirm for yourself.

I don't think it's paranoia. It's more experience than anything else. We've been around the block long enough to know that politicians are never looking after the consumer. They are always looking to line their own pockets and help out their buddies.

Now this may be hearsay, but I do believe that in France, airlines are required to buy Airbus planes, even if Boeing were to give them a better deal. Doesn't sound too much like consumer protection there.

Again, back on the paranoia point. I think Americans (and I'm one of them) are generally jaded and cynical. We can see these things for what they are. It's just a power grab.

For what it's worth, if the whole one-size-fits-all DRM does come about, who would determine how it's implemented? I don't trust any government or government agency deciding these standards.

slightly off topic - We in the US, and to a slightly lesser degree - Canadians, have had to deal with the FCC meddling in creating technology standards that don't have the consumer's interest in mind. Like HDTV, for example. Why are there 2 different broadcast standards? Who benefited from having 2 standards? Well, back in the early days, I've read that the TV manufacturers wanted to have one standard to support, 720p. However, Zenith was still a US manufacturer and they were still cranking out CRTs, which have been interlaced for ages. They pushed the FCC for an interlaced standard, hence 1080i. Fast forward 10 years and you'll notice that just about all HDTVs being made are progressive displays. Having the 1080i standard is a hassle more than anything. And Zenith is out of business too.

ft

 

[Stella]

That is because americans are mis-informed.

You don't get world news presented to you like other countries.

Who's generalizing? I was simply responding to someone's point that American's tend to be paranoid when other countries criticize/attack/maul US companies. I was adding insight to the comment.

 

[nptski]

Ah, the liberal point of view rings through. "Level the playing field", let someone create some awesome technology and popularize it through huge investments and risks and the same folks that think the rich shouldn't be and the poor shouldn't be no matter the effort expended or risks taken, all want everything their way because it's convenient. It is very easy to fix that, buy or build your own company and you get to make the rules. Music is not data, just like it isn't vinyl or paper, it is proprietary because not everyone can do it. Lots of people think they can sing, any bartender will attest to that, but there aren't a lot of Josh Grogan's.

If someone wants to play their music, then buy the music and the device it works with, whatever that is. Apple led the way and anyone can clone their ideas cheaper, it's the ideas that have the value. I think I hear a lot of carping that now iTunes has become the standard, it should be available to all. How ridiculous, let the also-ran's create a standard. Do you have any idea how much effort it takes to become a standard? iTunes must be a good one because everyone wants to use it. Apple owns it and if you don't like it, buy your music somewhere else, really simple.

 

[onlytobbe]

I don't think it's paranoia. It's more experience than anything else. We've been around the block long enough to know that politicians are never looking after the consumer. They are always looking to line their own pockets and help out their buddies.

Now this may be hearsay, but I do believe that in France, airlines are required to buy Airbus planes, even if Boeing were to give them a better deal. Doesn't sound too much like consumer protection there.

Again, back on the paranoia point. I think Americans (and I'm one of them) are generally jaded and cynical. We can see these things for what they are. It's just a power grab.

For what it's worth, if the whole one-size-fits-all DRM does come about, who would determine how it's implemented? I don't trust any government or government agency deciding these standards.

That's just sad.

 

[Stella]

Nope its called Consumer rights.

I'm glad I don't live in the states were consumers come second best to businesses.

But, hey, if you prefer corporate rights over consumer rights, then thats your freedom of opinion: prepared to to be screwed over, consistently.

EDIT:
The case of Norway - if Apple's situation is illegal - as suggested - do you think that Apple should be allowed to flout local laws with impunity? Or do you think its a case of "when in Roman, do what the Romans do"?

Ah, the liberal point of view rings through. "Level the playing field", let someone create some awesome technology and popularize it through huge investments and risks and the same folks that think the rich shouldn't be and the poor shouldn't be no matter the effort expended or risks taken, all want everything their way because it's convenient. It is very easy to fix that, buy or build your own company and you get to make the rules. Music is not data, just like it isn't vinyl or paper, it is proprietary because not everyone can do it. Lots of people think they can sing, any bartender will attest to that, but there aren't a lot of Josh Grogan's.

If someone wants to play their music, then buy the music and the device it works with, whatever that is. Apple led the way and anyone can clone their ideas cheaper, it's the ideas that have the value. I think I hear a lot of carping that now iTunes has become the standard, it should be available to all. How ridiculous, let the also-ran's create a standard. Do you have any idea how much effort it takes to become a standard? iTunes must be a good one because everyone wants to use it. Apple owns it and if you don't like it, buy your music somewhere else, really simple.

 

[nptski]

Sad? How about the most underground economies in the world, the European model. The higher the taxes and more the goverment controls, the more underground things go. Government is the least efficient deliverer of goods and services know to man. Why, because it produces nothing. We need government, chaos is no good either, but we also need freedom to create to produce and, sad that some might think it, doing it for gain is motivating. Unequal work and production for equal gain is not realistic but it has been tried. Same old argument, remove the reward and remove the motivation. In a perfect world I would love it if it weren't that way but it isn't a perfect world. Usually it is those that don't take risk or don't have the courage to lead out that complain the loudest. We don't all have those qualities and some do, that's why everyone isn't rich. I wish I could have invented iTunes, but I didn't think of it and didn't have the means to bring it to market. It is not paronoia, it is proprietary and if anyone on this thread believes they would do it differently if it was their product, they are silly. It is easy to what-if someone else's product, actually doing it is something else.

 

[Stella]

Underground economies!?? Define 'underground economies'!!

Err, like a previous poster highlighted - you do realise that European countries come out on the best standard of living, education, best health care in the world, right - with the states behind?

Hows the states economy doing? Hmmm... not very well..

Hows your health care? Everyone can afford health insurance? You don't mind the high price of drugs in the u.s - the HIGHEST in the world?

Sad? How about the most underground economies in the world, the European model. The higher the taxes and more the goverment controls, the more underground things go. Government is the least efficient deliverer of goods and services know to man. Why, because it produces nothing. We need government, chaos is no good either, but we also need freedom to create to produce and, sad that some might think it, doing it for gain is motivating. Unequal work and production for equal gain is not realistic but it has been tried. Same old argument, remove the reward and remove the motivation. In a perfect world I would love it if it weren't that way but it isn't a perfect world. Usually it is those that don't take risk or don't have the courage to lead out that complain the loudest. We don't all have those qualities and some do, that's why everyone isn't rich. I wish I could have invented iTunes, but I didn't think of it and didn't have the means to bring it to market. It is not paronoia, it is proprietary and if anyone on this thread believes they would do it differently if it was their product, they are silly. It is easy to what-if someone else's product, actually doing it is something else.

 

[whooleytoo]

Why it is that European countries or the EU investigate a u.s company, you americans always see it as anything other what it is, i.e., consumer protection, stop anti competitive behaviour, what either the reason stated!!!

You americans are PARANOID!!!!

"Just because you're paranoid, don't mean they're not watching you!"

If true, I can't blame Americans for being distrustful of European governments. I'm worried about US interference with European companies, after reading reports how intelligence gathered in Europe for the 'war on terror' was being passed onto US companies to give them a competitive advantage.

To be honest, I think being distrustful of governments is a very healthly state of mind (funnily enough, it's kind of a major point in the US constitution!).

What I find unfathomable though, is why Americans, in particular, seem to place trust in companies! Forget about war, it's business which brings out the ugliest, most base and unscrupilous sides of people. There is no loyalty in business, lifelong employees or company co-founders get kicked out without hesitation (ask Jobs!). There's certainly no consideration for customers.

Which is why I don't understand the 'American' culture of corporate self-regulation, unlike the more European culture of heavy regulation. To me, that's like asking crooks to police themselves.

I don't think this move is anti-Apple, or anti-American companies; it just reflects the more pro-consumer attitude here, rather than pro-business.

 

[nptski]

Nope its called Consumer rights.

I'm glad I don't live in the states were consumers come second best to businesses.

But, hey, if you prefer corporate rights over consumer rights, then thats your freedom of opinion: prepared to to be screwed over, consistently.

EDIT:
The case of Norway - if Apple's situation is illegal - as suggested - do you think that Apple should be allowed to flout local laws with impunity? Or do you think its a case of "when in Roman, do what the Romans do"?

Just a thought here, you have to HAVE business to PRODUCE what consumers consume. If a business has no incentive, there is no production. If Norway's (or any country's) consumers want to use iTunes, then buy an iPod. If they want the music to run on some other device, buy the music somewhere else. How hard is that? There is no greater consumer "right" than the right to buy from whomever you want. There is no intrinsic "right" to buy anything from anyone, it is a choice. Unless you own it, you have no "right" over a company just like they have no right over you!

If you think you are getting screwed then don't buy from them. This is licensed music coming from someone else's company, not yours. Basic rule, it is not your company, you have no rights over them other than not to do business with them.

 

[Stella]

People do not buy iPods for iTunes. In fact they don't buy many tracks from iTMS.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/5350258.stm

They buy iPods for the device itself.

Take your consumer right example.

Currently the EU are investigating cellphone networks due to the high charges whilst roaming ( thats using your cellphone outside your country - using the same SIM card - but using a foreign network ). The EU will force the networks to lower these charges because the EU thinks they are excessively high. All networks charge high roaming fees.

Do you think:
a) this is a good idea - to protect the consumer in this way
b) EU should mind its own business and let competition take its course ( there is no competition because all networks charge excessively high roaming charges )

Just a thought here, you have to HAVE business to PRODUCE what consumers consume. If a business has no incentive, there is no production. If Norway's (or any country's) consumers want to use iTunes, then buy an iPod. If they want the music to run on some other device, buy the music somewhere else. How hard is that? There is no greater consumer "right" than the right to buy from whomever you want. There is no intrinsic "right" to buy anything from anyone, it is a choice. Unless you own it, you have no "right" over a company just like they have no right over you!

If you think you are getting screwed then don't buy from them. This is licensed music coming from someone else's company, not yours. Basic rule, it is not your company, you have no rights over them other than not to do business with them.

 

[Spritey]

I think this is ridiculous.

Apple's not forcing anyone to use iTunes. If you want to use it then buy an iPod as well, I see nothing wrong with this.

But what if you own an iPod, eventually it dies, and there's this new cool and cheap mp3 player out. Or maybe you want to put the songs you've purchased it on your cell phone player (in Europe iPhone's a year away anyway, and a lot of people won't be able to afford it either). Then what are you going to do with the iTunes library you've built up over the year?

You're forced to buy an iPod, which sucks for the consumer since he/she is not longer able to freely choose the mp3 player of his/her choice.

Also, (VERY hypothetical), say 's next generation of iPods is horrible and someone else came out with something better, you're still forced to use the iPod if you want your iTunes songs on your player.

And you might say it's a matter of burning the songs onto a cd, ripping them in regular format. Well, too bad if you have purchased a lot of songs, and/or just don't want to spend the extra time doing that.

 

[Gasu E.]

You americans are PARANOID!!!!

Generalization.

 

[Gasu E.]

Maybe on your side of the Atlantic, but don't generalise it to be so on the whole planet. <...> Usual american right-wing paranoia and fantasy about the french.

"Usual"? Don't generalize yourself.

 

[onlytobbe]

America is the best, totalitarian kapitalism for all. Bend over and shut up!

Wow. That brainwashing must be really effective.

 

[Gasu E.]

That is because americans are mis-informed.

Generalization. My four main news sources: BBC, NPR, The Economist, NY Times.

Stella, once again you prove to be as intransigent, ill-informed, and prejudiced as the average American.

No offence intended, just an observation.

 

[Gasu E.]

The u.s wants globalisation - but - ONLY - on their terms.

Generalization.

 

[Stella]

Generalization.

Really? given the evidence, it doesn't seem that way!

Stella, once again you prove to be as intransigent, ill-informed, and prejudiced as the average American.

No offence intended, just an observation.

******** Your observations have proven to be very incorrect.