European Countries Up Pressure On iTunes, FairPlay

[aine]

What if you could only buy one type of TOOTHPASTE for the TOOTHBRUSH that you bought? Think that would be RIGHT?

Then I would not but that kind of toothbrush, and I would not buy that kind of toothpaste.

Unless I loved that kind of toothpaste so much that was willing to commit to buying their proprietary toothbrush in order to use it.

Same analogy with shavers and blades. It's everywhere. The EU is targeting Apple simply because they have so much marketshare.

 

[w00master]

Alright, this is just another example of Europe being backwards, again.

There is nothing preventing me from playing music that I purchase from the iTunes store on a Zune, CD Player or as a ring-tone.

w00master is not completely correct in saying that "data is data in my book, and no device should hold what YOU want to do with YOUR data."

So are you saying that the copyright holder owns real-estate on your harddrive? Sorry, it's still data.

Yes, technically today I can do anything I want with the data on my iPod, however it's not my data. I do not hold the copyrights. I cannot use this music commercially or illegally share it.

So, how exactly is it "illegally sharing" or "commercial use" if a user wants to stream their iTunes bough music to their XBox 360? Don't you think their is something wrong with that picture? Again, I ask this question:

How is this a GOOD USER EXPERIENCE? It isn't.

I feel as if these countries are just trying to screw with a sucessful American company which has figured out how to make money in the music industry.

I wonder why they don't go after the video game industry in the same way. Cause you know w00master claims that data is data and I believe that PS 3, X-box 360 and WII games are just a bunch of 0's and 1's.

And I feel that your defending Apple, simply because you love Apple and nothing more.

As for the games argument, well personlly, I think you should be able to buy a game and play it anywhere.

w00master

 

[P-Worm]

w00master,

The way I see things when speaking about rights is that Europe has no right to force Apple to change their product (unless it affects the environment we live in or kills people or something drastic like that, but we're not talking about that). What if all companies would have to do things that the consumers wanted. First thing I'm lobbying for would be "free products all the time" because that suits my needs.

I know that example is rediculous, but my point is that opening up Fairplay is no more right than making VCRs play both VHS and Betamax. Different formats call for different equipment whehter its because of technology or marketing strategy. Apple never got in this business to sell music, they got in it to sell iPods. If the DRM was open, they may as well bag the iTunes store.

P-Worm

 

[nagromme]

Opening up iTunes will probably happen one day, and it will probably mean good things like more choices for shoppers.

But this will also help Apple's competition, and allow others to make money from the system Apple has created. So I don't mind if Apple chooses the when and how of it, striking when they feel it is strategic to do so.

After all, the iPod and iTunes are a system that actually WORKS well together, and is designed to do so. The tie is not completely an artificial one.

And the quality and ease of this system is vital to Apple in competing against something that has nothing to do with quality or ease: the Microsoft juggernaut with its deep pockets and existing monopolies in computing... not to mention its own DRM, its own players, its own music software, and its frequent locking out of the Mac platform.

Apple opening up the DRM could actually hurt Microsoft and hurt the iPod both. Is it worth it? I don't know. Maybe someday. For now, I just hope the iPod and iTunes experience doesn't suffer.

I honestly don't think that other players are failing due to being "left out" of iTunes. iPods were big sellers long before iTunes was selling music. I think--and this may be crazy--that other players are failing because the iPod is simple to use and well-designed. And also, now, because the iPod has built up name recognition.

Someone else could design an integrated system as good as iTunes and iPod, and seize market quite nicely. But if they don't--and so many have failed--then I'm not sure why Apple should be forced to help them.

As for the consumer, ANY DRM sucks.... but it's the record companies, not Apple, who demand it. They would never have let iTunes happen at all without that. At least Apple's DRM is far more liberal than any non-piracy use I might personally have. (Except, that is, for splitting the iTunes/iPod system. Which I don't want--no other players are so good I need to have them--but I can understand that some do. Although maybe those people should be wishing for new software that's as good as iTunes and integrates just as smoothly with those other players.)

I do agree that I should be able to do what I want with my music, ideally--but at least I KNOW up front that I can't use another player, when I buy from iTunes. I have the choice to shop elsewhere (good ol' CDs) if I don't want to buy into the iPod/iTunes systems. I am not being tricked into anything.

One thing I can see Apple doing--when the time is right--is allowing other companies to be Fairplay-compatible (and making some money from them for the privelege) but NOT integrating other players with iTunes (beyond what they already do with synching playlists of CDs ripped to MP3). Not integrating them to the level of calendars and contacts and games etc.--so that the iTunes app is unaffected and does not become more complex or buggy. Let people synch m4p AACs but go no further. And Apple could then tout these other non-music iTunes features as selling points for iPods.

 

[w00master]

I understand what you are saying and your point of view, but I can't play PS3 games on an XBox 360. Why? It's business. I can still listen to the radio for free, but why do people pay $$$ to Sirius radio. Because it is a different medium and has different options (mostly, no commercials). I buy songs legally from and I still buy CDs. Most of my collection is from CDs. I chose to use a Mac and iTunes and iPods.

I understand it's a business, but it doesn't make it RIGHT. How does a fragmented video game market really benefit content producers? In the end it doesn't. It costs them more money to develop for multiple platforms.


w00master

 

[superleccy]

Personally, I wouldn't want Apple to "open up" fairplay. But, my reasoning seems different to other posters here.

I can already play my iTMS songs on all my devices without too much of a problem. Obviously they work great on my iPod, but I can also play them in my car CD player (and on the CD player in my living room, but thanks to AirTunes and Salling Clicker that doesn't happen so often these days), and on my Nokia N80.

OK, so to play them on my Nokia N80, I have to burn them to Audio CD and then re-rip them into iTunes as MP3... and i have to use SyncTunes to get them onto the N80's memory card... but that's a routine I've gotten used to, and there's no noticable loss in sound quality.

So, the music industry thinks iTMS is selling DRM-protected music (so it is happy, and continues to push more and more content into the iTMS), and I can strip off that DRM pretty easilly so I can do exactly what I want with the music that I have paid for. And BTW, I don't share my music collection with anyone.

If Apple opened up Fairplay, then the music industry might get cold feet, and start withdrawing content from iTMS, or insisting on stupid Zune-ish iPod tax and stuff.

So, I know the current situation isn't ideal, but frankly I'm happy enough. Let FairPlay stay as it is.

SL

PS: The irony is that the N80's MP3 player is so lame that most of the time I don't bother using it, and just carry my iPod round with me anyway. Roll-on the iPhone!

 

[starcke]

Maybe I'm naive, but I see two things here.

First, if I buy a song from iTunes and it moves to my computer, it becomes mine. No, I don't have the copyright so I can't (or shouldn't anyway) share it illegally or use it commercially, but for all intents and purposes that file is mine. Why should I be limited to using it with a certain device when there are loads of other devices that could potentially make use of the file?

Second, and more broadly, I don't see how opening up iTunes music/TV/movies to other devices hurts Apple. Who cares if Johnny down the street owns an iRiver player but really likes iTunes and wants to get his music that way... it's still money going to Apple, right? And if Johnny realizes (as so many people have/are with iPods and iTunes already) that Apple makes a good product and suddenly finds himself in the market for a new computer/mp3 player/etc, isn't that a positive?

I think at the end of the day fighting this is putting Apple on the wrong side of the fence. It might win the battle for a while, but eventually the market will demand an open and user-friendly music service that doesn't lock you in to one device.

Just my two cents...

 

[w00master]

w00master,

The way I see things when speaking about rights is that Europe has no right to force Apple to change their product (unless it affects the environment we live in or kills people or something drastic like that, but we're not talking about that). What if all companies would have to do things that the consumers wanted. First thing I'm lobbying for would be "free products all the time" because that suits my needs.

I know that example is rediculous, but my point is that opening up Fairplay is no more right than making VCRs play both VHS and Betamax. Different formats call for different equipment whehter its because of technology or marketing strategy. Apple never got in this business to sell music, they got in it to sell iPods. If the DRM was open, they may as well bag the iTunes store.

P-Worm

I agree with you in part. I myself do not like that a government is being involved with this. However, as a consumer, I don't like being locked into one device.

As for the VHS and Betamax argument, it doesn't hold water for me. Why? Because eventually (because of the market), I could by a VHS player made by Sony, JVC, Toshiba, etc. etc. You can't do that with iTunes bought music.

Personally, I don't give a hoot about Apple's investment into the iTunes music store. I should be able to purchase digital music anywhere and not worry about what device it can play in and what it can't.

Will market forces open Apple up? Will we see the same thing happen to DRM what happened to VHS/Betamax? I really hope so, because that's the way it should be.

w00master

 

[jakaj]

I basically have just one question for all of you that are on Apple's side here:

Why? What do you gain from DRM? I really want to know.


It's obvious to me what we lose with DRM. It's also obvious what companies gain with DRM. But what is not obvious is what YOU gain from it.

 

[whatever]

Really? How can I play songs purchased from iTunes on my no-name mp3 player?

Oops, I was wrong! You need to rip a disc first.

Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Stella]

I understand what you are saying and your point of view, but I can't play PS3 games on an XBox 360. Why? It's business. I can still listen to the radio for free, but why do people pay $$$ to Sirius radio. Because it is a different medium and has different options (mostly, no commercials). I buy songs legally from and I still buy CDs. Most of my collection is from CDs. I chose to use a Mac and iTunes and iPods.

The walkman would have been a laughing stock if you could only play tapes from tape manufacturer A, on Walkman manufacturer B's product.

This also applies to digital music.

In 10 years time the world would laugh at the current suitation where you cannot play Fairplay music on the Zune.

Digital music will only *signficiantly* take off when there is no dependency between music source and media player.

It astounds me that people like their freedoms limited just because this is Apple. If Apple where in microsoft present position regarding digital music, people would be spitting blood saying microsoft should open up their DRM to other digital players.

 

[P-Worm]

I basically have just one question for all of you that are on Apple's side here:

Why? What do you gain from DRM? I really want to know.


It's obvious to me what we lose with DRM. It's also obvious what companies gain with DRM. But what is not obvious is what YOU gain from it.

We don't gain anything, but in my eyes it's not fair that Apple should have to change because of what some government says. I feel that the market should be driven by consumers rather than governments (except for extreme cases). Remember, if consumers really didn't want Fairplay on their songs, they wouldn't have bought the songs from iTunes in the first place. If the iTunes store had no sales due to lack of accessability, Apple would either modify the agreement or shut it down.

P-Worm

 

[jakaj]

Not to difficult to do.
Step 1: Open iTune's Preferences
Step 2: Select Advance
Step 3: Select Importing
Step 4: Importing
Step 5: Change Import Using to MP3 Encoder and select your Quality Setting.
Step 6: Click Ok
Step 7: Select the songs from your library you want to convert
Step 8: Control Click
Step 9: Select Convert Selection MP3

This will not change the Protected AAC file, but create a second version of the song(s) as MP3.

Not very difficult. Could this be streamlined? Sure, but since a majority of the people buying music from the iTunes use an iPod, why should Apple bother.

We're talking about exporting, not importing it. I know I can import my music from my mp3 player and play it on the iPod.

 

[maxp1]

First, if I buy a song from iTunes and it moves to my computer, it becomes mine. No, I don't have the copyright so I can't (or shouldn't anyway) share it illegally or use it commercially, but for all intents and purposes that file is mine. Why should I be limited to using it with a certain device when there are loads of other devices that could potentially make use of the file?

Well, there's nothing stopping you from playing the music you bought on iTMS any any other device. All you have to do is a format conversion. Write to CD and then rip to MP3. This is exactly the same as it would be for buying music in a physical medium.

If you buy a CD and want to listen on a tape player you don't expect the maker of that tape player to support a CD, right? You do a format conversion. You record the CD to tape. Simple, works the same way here.

 

[aine]

So, if you bought a digital photo online on your Mac, you wouldn't have a problem if your printer couldn't print it?

If this was not disclosed until AFTER I bought the photo, then I would be ticked, of course.

However, if BEFORE I bought the photo, it said "will only print on Epson printers", then while I might think twice about buying it, I would have to make an informed choice. I might then choose to look elsewhere. Or I might decide to buy into the Epson brand if I liked the photos as well as the service.

Apple makes no secret that music purchased on iTunes will only play on Apple products. So, as with photos, you have bought into the Apple brand when you accepted this arrangement.

I personally don't buy much music on iTunes for this very reason. I buy CDs.

 

[P-Worm]

If Apple where in microsoft present position regarding digital music, people would be spitting blood saying microsoft should open up their DRM to other digital players.

That is absolutely true, but would it be the right thing, or just the popular thing?

P-Worm

 

[Stella]

Another person who forgets this process takes time and is an inconvience.

Well, there's nothing stopping you from playing the music you bought on iTMS any any other device. All you have to do is a format conversion. Write to CD and then rip to MP3. This is exactly the same as it would be for buying music in a physical medium.

If you buy a CD and want to listen on a tape player you don't expect the maker of that tape player to support a CD, right? You do a format conversion. You record the CD to tape. Simple, works the same way here.

That is absolutely true, but would it be the right thing, or just the popular thing?

P-Worm

Th right thing, of course ;-)

If this was not disclosed until AFTER I bought the photo, then I would be ticked, of course.

However, if BEFORE I bought the photo, it said "will only print on Epson printers", then while I might think twice about buying it, I would have to make an informed choice. I might then choose to look elsewhere. Or I might decide to buy into the Epson brand if I liked the photos as well as the service.

Apple makes no secret that music purchased on iTunes will only play on Apple products. So, as with photos, you have bought into the Apple brand when you accepted this arrangement.

I personally don't buy much music on iTunes for this very reason. I buy CDs.

On iTunes STore does it say any where that the music is only playable on iPod?
( just interested !)

 

[superleccy]

Not to difficult to do.
Step 1: Open iTune's Preferences
Step 2: Select Advance
Step 3: Select Importing
Step 4: Importing
Step 5: Change Import Using to MP3 Encoder and select your Quality Setting.
Step 6: Click Ok
Step 7: Select the songs from your library you want to convert
Step 8: Control Click
Step 9: Select Convert Selection MP3

This will not change the Protected AAC file, but create a second version of the song(s) as MP3.

Er... this doesn't actually work. Does it really work for you? On protected AAC files?

 

[motorazr]

Ok... while I really would like to be able to use itunes music other places... it's apple's store, in apple's ipod software, desigined to be used with apple's ipod! Go buy a disk if you really dislike this...oh and btw, what about the zune? With the Zune you can't use CDs at all!

 

[Antares]

Like a lot of people say: If I buy music, I want to be able to play it wherever and whenever I want....in iTunes, on an iPod or in some other software or music player, etc.. I'm not a fan of DRM because I want to do what I want with what I buy. Same applies to downloaded games... If I buy a Wii game online, I want to be able to take it with me and play it on any Wii system, not just the Wii I bought (and not have to buy the game again if my Wii breaks and I have to get a new one).

Anyway, I do realize the reality of DRM. I don't see it going away. But it's the record companies who are forcing Apple's hand at DRM. The iTunes Store would not exist without it. And if Fairplay was licensed, so songs could play on any other device, how would the DRM remain intact? Computers are currently authorized to play a song. This is managed by Apple/iTunes. If an iTunes purchased song was to play on other software or music devices, how would that authorization be validated?

And yes, you can burn an iTunes song to a CD and rerip it. But why waste time and blank cd's for this? The solution would be no DRM...but the record companies would likely pull their songs if there was no DRM. Other than completely redesigning the DRM system, what can Apple do?

 

[P-Worm]

Oh, the right thing ;-)

Hehe. I guess it's settled then.

P-Worm

 

[jakaj]

We don't gain anything, but in my eyes it's not fair that Apple should have to change because of what some government says. I feel that the market should be driven by consumers rather than governments (except for extreme cases).

If you live in a country in which the government doesn't represent the majority of it's citizens (=consumers), then I'm sorry. But that's mostly not the case here in Europe.

 

[bretm]

It's sad to see how people not only do nothing when their rights are taken from them, but actually support the companies when they do it.

Hmmm... I'd like you to actually quote that "right." Which ammendment was it you were referring to? Or was it possibly in the original draft of the consitution? Let's see.. freedom of speech, the press, and digital music distribution.

Wonder what other "rights" people here think they have.

 

[tack]

Curious

It has been stated that the apple store exists to sell iPods. From what I have read, and this could have changed, the iTunes store is not profitable for apple. I don’t buy things from the apple store because I, personally, do not want to be locked in. However I am curious, from the people who want apple to be forced to open up their DRM.

Let’s say I invent a product and to differentiate it in the market place I create a service that could only be used with my product. Are you saying that particular business model should be illegal? Or only if that service is selling digital content?

 

[nagromme]

Er... this doesn't actually work. Does it really work for you? On protected AAC files?

No, it doesn't. What you CAN do is burn to CD (a handy DRM-free backup anyway, and also playable in cars and home stereos) and then rip to MP3. Now your iTunes purchases work with any player. It's not Apple-friendly nor encouraged, but it does work and needs no hacks or downloads. iTunes alone will do it.