European Parliament Votes to Support Right to Repair

[Edsel]

Just announced! This is Apple's new, user serviceable, home/office computer for the EU market...

Yes, car wax will do wonders for your computer cabinetry.

 

[jeffg819]

Dude, I replaced the broken water pump in my washer for like $80. I do all kinds of work on my car myself including replacing the water pump and timing belt. Do you think people aren’t capable of fixing their own things? Just because you don’t know the difference between a wrench and a screwdriver doesn’t mean nobody else does. 😂

No, most people are not nearly as handy as you. You want a law for you that provides zero to the vast majority of users. And you want the big bad government to do this for you.

I’m not sure what “addressing an answer means”. In any case, the implication was that people aren’t complaining about cars and washing machines not being fixable. Which isn’t true in the first place, as they’re already user-repairable if you are even halfway competent with basic tools. I have zero training on auto or appliance repair, but have managed to do both thanks to this newfangled thing called the Internet and Google. Doing a full brake job including rotor replacement, either this or next weekend. Never done it before, but with basically limitless information available at my fingertips, I don’t anticipate it being overly complicated.

Good for you. Please don’t take anyone else on the post repair test drive.

Huh...

Let me explain it to you. The better the product, the less need for a warranty to convince people to buy crap. Warranties are marketing tools as much as anything else.

Then why do you describe people supporting right to repair as clueless? How is this bad for us, as consumers?

If apple is really concerned about environment, as they like to proclaim, this is where they should start.

Apple provides for trade in and refurb items. No, being able to have users fix something is not going to change the lifespan of anything. 99% of people have no clue how to fix anything, ever.

I am so tired of this line of Apple apologist. It's one thing if a product is difficult to repair due to size and design requirements, but quite another when a company goes out of its way to make a product difficult/impossible to repair in the way Apple does. Locking an otherwise generic power management chip behind a proprietary agreement, preventing third party repair companies from accessing it any way but through Apple directly and only one chip at a time on a case by case basis, thus ensuring same third party repair shop will always provide the repair more slowly and more expensively than Apple directly. Can you imagine if a car company tried something like this? If you were forced to get an oil change or purchase simple things like tires or batteries exclusively through the company dealership directly? And then when this arrangement was rightly criticized that car company made a token gesture of allowing independent shops to perform this work for an annual fee but due to supply chain restrictions mentioned above always more slowly and more expensively than the dealerships themselves?
What part of any of that scenario is better for the consumer? In what way has limiting choice and driving up costs ever been a benefit to the consumer?

Evil Apple designing their products to achieve record profits on repairs! I can assure you the revenue generated by the repair business is probably break even at best. This is not how Apple is making it’s money.

And for 99% of the folks that barely know how to charge their devices, let alone do any meaningful repairs, it keeps them from making a mess of their equipment and then asking Apple for fix it for free.

This is another great example of why the EU lags the US in innovation. They have so many people so devoted to the nitpicking of bureaucratic nonsense that it exhausts the energy required to move technology forward.

Hail to the nanny state.

Sad that Apple's M1 based macs are a shot across the bow of 'self repair', and upgrade.

You either buy big, or you suffer. Like the MacBook Pro I have that is suffering running video intensive programs, and I can't upgrade the memory because Apple decided it was going to sell it as a closed box, no upgrades. So it's a dead end. It'll be still viable if I could upgrade it. With the M1 having the RAM literally on the chip, it gets even worse, right? I don't think there is an excuse for doing this to customers...

Right to repair, and Right to upgrade!

Which equates in the real world to the right to screw up ones equipment.

Dell or HP are probably better bets for you.

Finally, the ball has started to roll... It's shameful that companies like apple (and others in all sorts of technological domains) willfully makes things so hard/impossible to make repairs. Shameful.

Shameful? More like protecting people from themselves. Ask any mechanic about DIY stories.

The first word of your post applies perfectly to your line of thought.

Pithy comeback...

Right: the right to repair focuses exclusively on repairing CPU transistors.
Thank you for making me laugh at that straw man.

What else do you want to fix that is beyond the battery or screen? You want to add ram to a phone? Or better speakers?

 

[vipergts2207]

No, most people are not nearly as handy as you. You want a law for you that provides zero to the vast majority of users. And you want the big bad government to do this for you.

It appears that you don’t know what this law actually says. Perhaps read about it before launching into a diatribe on it that doesn’t even apply here. 🙄

Good for you. Please don’t take anyone else on the post repair test drive.

I won’t, but I’m also not worried because it looks to be a pretty straightforward process. After doing a water pump and timing belt, not much else worries me unless it involves going deep into the engine or transmission. That you don’t know how to use a wrench doesn’t impact the capabilities or desire to learn of anyone else. Every time I do something new I get a sense of pride in a) having learned how to do something new, and b) paying half to a third of what I would’ve spent at a dealer or mechanic. Of course I recognize my limits. I’ve installed outlets and fixtures in my home, but when it was time for a new HVAC I called the professionals.

 

[Manzanito]

Apple provides for trade in and refurb items. No, being able to have users fix something is not going to change the lifespan of anything. 99% of people have no clue how to fix anything, ever.

Actually it will. I recently replaced the failing power supply of my 2010 mac pro, giving the ancient beast at least a couple years more of service. Apple or apple authorized services wouldn’t consent to repair it because it was too old. So yes, making a good, user serviceable design makes things last longer.

 

[jeffg819]

Actually it will. I recently replaced the failing power supply of my 2010 mac pro, giving the ancient beast at least a couple years more of service. Apple or apple authorized services wouldn’t consent to repair it because it was too old. So yes, making a good, user serviceable design makes things last longer.

So we now have a population of 1 against a denominator of billions.

It appears that you don’t know what this law actually says. Perhaps read about it before launching into a diatribe on it that doesn’t even apply here. 🙄


I won’t, but I’m also not worried because it looks to be a pretty straightforward process. After doing a water pump and timing belt, not much else worries me unless it involves going deep into the engine or transmission. That you can’t use a wrench doesn’t impact the capabilities of anyone else.

I worked in automotive for 25 years. The number of government mandates to post this, or describe that, or print this particular number on the new car label drove me insane. Nobody pays attention to any of this and it has pretty much zero impact on personal behavior (no, I’m not going to buy this car because the domestic content is not high enough!).

The law is to publish another number that will require resources of the private sector be spent to generate a number that 99% of people will neither know what it means, or will ignore because it goes against the feelings of the moment.

So yes, I get what the law is about. And I think it’s a complete waste of time in total. Your mileage may vary.

 

[Manzanito]

So we now have a population of 1 against a denominator of billions.

I wouldn’t go as far as saying billions. I’ll say you’re 1 against a dozen, at most, people wasting time trying to debate with you by exchanging sensible arguments.

I’ll leave you to it, in order to not further derail neither the thread nor the sanctity of your crusade 🙂

 

[vipergts2207]

I worked in automotive for 25 years. The number of government mandates to post this, or describe that, or print this particular number on the new car label drove me insane. Nobody pays attention to any of this and it has pretty much zero impact on personal behavior (no, I’m not going to buy this car because the domestic content is not high enough!).

The law is to publish another number that will require resources of the private sector be spent to generate a number that 99% of people will neither know what it means, or will ignore because it goes against the feelings of the moment.

So yes, I get what the law is about. And I think it’s a complete waste of time in total. Your mileage may vary.

And this is actually a valid complaint, unlike your original comment. However, I err on the side of consumer transparency. You may not use the number, but some consumers might. When I had my HVAC replaced I paid extra for a higher SEER A/C unit.

 

[ipedro]

Apple will just include a photo of Apple Park's spaceship with every product.

 

[jeffg819]

I wouldn’t go as far as saying billions. I’ll say you’re 1 against a dozen, at most, people wasting time trying to debate with you by exchanging sensible arguments.

I’ll leave you to it, in order to not further derail neither the thread nor the sanctity of your crusade 🙂

A sensible argument is to suggest a manufacturer in the technology sector, where Moore’s law prevails, provide parts and support for 10 years? Car makers are required in the US to provide OEM replacement parts for 7 years. I think statistically speaking you are a few standard deviations from the mean.

Interesting you would use the pejorative “crusade” in your response.

 

[Manzanito]

A sensible argument is to suggest a manufacturer in the technology sector, where Moore’s law prevails, provide parts and support for 10 years? Car makers are required in the US to provide OEM replacement parts for 7 years. I think statistically speaking you are a few standard deviations from the mean.

Interesting you would use the pejorative “crusade” in your response.

Apple didn’t have to provide anything, I bought a used part. A clever, serviceable design on apple’s side allowed me to fix it myself. I’m not particularly smart or handy, so I won’t agree with you on your 99% figure, nor in your point that serviceable design doesn’t equate to longer lifespans.

Will the majority of users suddenly start switching batteries or screens in their phones? Of course not. It’s a good thing if a law protects the right of those who can to be able to do it? In my book, it is. Is it good for us, the regular joes of the Earth, to be able to take a product we bought to a third party repair shop to have it fixed when apple no longer will repair it? It definitely is.

 

[Shirasaki]

Now this, now this.....
Isn’t throwaway culture originated from USA and spread to the other parts of the world? So they are the people who denies right to repair the fiercest? Years of brainwashes from multiple industries to gain their own profit and completely negligent the impact to our environment. Hard to say those mega corps which earns billions every day would suddenly want to be a mascot of environmental protection and brainwash people the other way while continuing to promote throwaway culture.

By no means Apple takes the full blame of denying rights to repair, but Apple is one of the companies which intentionally design the product in such a way that makes repair impossible. Either way, EU is trying to put a break on this throwaway culture and I like it. We don’t need to wait until our land is completely filled with trash and completely inhabitable before we start thinking about sustainability. Oh wait.... those mega corps don’t care anyways. Sigh.

 

[dukebound85]

I'm pretty sure you can't tell a company how to manufacture a product they produce. You can't force them to design something that is easier to repair by "law". Your free to make whatever you want so long as it complies with safey and it's not toxic or something like that. You can't make Apple or anyone make a product that is repairable.

of course you can

 

[ericwn]

So we now have a population of 1 against a denominator of billions.

Making it up from the thin air as you go along.

 

[jeffg819]

Making it up from the thin air as you go along.

Apple has sold billions of Macs, iPhones, iPads, etc during its existence. What folks is this thread is making up is the notion of a long repressed user base just itching to fix and upgrade their own rigs. Those are the folks making stuff up out of thin air.

of course you can

All it takes is a few bureaucrats and a government.

 

[ericwn]

All it takes is a few bureaucrats and a government.

Exactly why they are elected. Last thing you want is the corporations left to themselves.

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

It is not that simple. There are benefits to designing the SOC with very tight coupling between RAM and CPU/GPU. Maybe 99% of MB Air users would never care about upgrading memory. If you want to upgrade memory you can get an iMac or Mac Pro. Your issue seems to be that Apple doesn't make exactly the configuration of device that you want. Welcome to the club.

I'm talking about notebooks, and you tell people to buy an iMac, or a Mac Pro instead?

Neither one is anywhere near 'portable'. Can someone use an iMac on plane, train, or automobile?

They CAN make upgradeable systems, because THEY HAVE! And is it that much of a benefit to save a few clock cycles in memory access by denying customers the ability to upgrade?

If the memory bus was fiber optic, or some form of advanced technology that no one has ever heard of, I could see where denying upgrades was almost necessary. Look where fiber-channel has gone. But DEC had a 'private high speed memory interconnect' that was, for the time, rather earthshaking, but they ALSO provided upgrade boards, and eventually provided the specs so they weren't the only source of those upgrades.

Apple *should* not claim 'speed' to remove the upgrade ability for their systems. It's not a good enough excuse. Sorry...

If the systems were immersed in Fluorinert, I could definitely get on the 'you can't upgrade' bandwagon, but, that would not be portable either. *shrug*

And upgradeability doesn't address REPAIR.

I've had memory go bad. I've had CPUs fail. To toss a SOC chip because a bit is dead in RAM is kinda nuts. To say that the SIMM/DIMM sockets are a reason is kinda nuts too.

Denying upgradeability denies repairability too.

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

Which equates in the real world to the right to screw up ones equipment.

Dell or HP are probably better bets for you.

Oh, so should I move out of America too? I hope you realize how stupid that comment was. Please delete it.

 

[jeffg819]

Exactly why they are elected. Last thing you want is the corporations left to themselves.

If we are reduced to a binary choice, I’ll take corporations facing true market conditions than a government mostly run by unelected bureaucrats. At least in the US, the folks we get to vote on do very little of the regulatory heaving lifting these days.

I loath crony capitalism and think all car dealers should be sent to the gulag. Another story but one that bureaucrats and politicians have failed to address in the age of Tesla.

 

[DeanL]

What else do you want to fix that is beyond the battery or screen? You want to add ram to a phone? Or better speakers?

Did you notice how you went from "fixing" to adding?
Go inform yourself on iFixit if you do not understand what and how Apple makes its products difficult to repair.

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

If we are reduced to a binary choice, I’ll take corporations facing true market conditions than a government mostly run by unelected bureaucrats. At least in the US, the folks we get to vote on do very little of the regulatory heaving lifting these days.

I loath crony capitalism and think all car dealers should be sent to the gulag. Another story but one that bureaucrats and politicians have failed to address in the age of Tesla.

Bogus analogy. And government not doing regulation? That's funny. That is probably the main reason that so much money has flooded into politics. Corporations BUYING regulators. Corporations BUYING research. Corporations BUYING public opinion. Corporations BUYING their future. Investors in those corporations not giving two shakes of a damn about the wreckage and carnage their corporate 'person' does. (If corporations are 'people', they should be locked up in prison, or definitely locked up in an asylum to protect society from their jaundiced view of the planet, and its inhabitants)

Government isn't perfect, look at America! (OMG!) But government isn't the greatest evil either. Corporations seek to wag the dog, locally, regionally, statewide, nationwide, worldwide. You have to watch carefully what you government does, only a fool trusts them, but DAMN, only an investor trusts a corporation. (Or a politician on 'the take')

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

What else do you want to fix that is beyond the battery or screen? You want to add ram to a phone? Or better speakers?

I would like a slot for a memory chip. How many devices have them. How many devices that have them, have figured out a way to protect the device from environmental threats.

Things *could* be better. Apple, left to themselves came out with the M1 SOC. Seeking to slam the door on upgradeability, and repairability.

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

No, most people are not nearly as handy as you. You want a law for you that provides zero to the vast majority of users. And you want the big bad government to do this for you.

For those that can fix their own devices, they SHOULD be able to. For those that can't, or don't want to, they SHOULD be able to find another entity that CAN fix it.

Apple, and John Deere, and others, seek to LIMIT the repair options for their products. They seek to ELIMINATE any competition in the repair of their products. I have a JD lawn tractor. I can't even get a damn service manual for it. There are some parts that I apparently can't purchase. I also ahve a Toro, and I can get all of the parts I want, and downloaded the service and shop manuals for all of the parts. If it's something I don't think I can handle, I will take it to the dealer, but I SHOULD have the choice.

Just like if repairability is the law. Juswt because you *can* repair it yourself, means you don't HAVE to. I've known people that couldn't change a light bulb. I had a friend that wanted to know how to change a broken lockset on his front door. It's so simple, but he kept calling with questions, but he didn't want me to do it, and after the mess he made didn't want me to see it.

Insuring a 'right to repair' raises ALL boats, and encourages others to help service, maintain, extend the life of those products. (Or adds to the bill when they get creative and really mess it up. I worked at a bike recycler, and we also provided bike repair. One guy brought in a bike that he had 'fixed'. The QR (quick release) is not a complicated part of a bike, but some of the simplest things avoid some people. He brought his bike in because the wheel was wobbling. I figured bearings and some grease, and all's good. Yeah, now. He couldn't figure out how the QR concept worked, so he welded both sides of the QR axle to the frame. He essentially had an Apple M1 MacBook Pro, and a few bits fell out. He did such a bad job of welding, but it was definitely 'on there', we couldn't fix the bearings without doing major damage to the frame. He ended up getting a new bike. Crazy analogy)

Netmage seems to be very angry. It's just opinions, and life. It doesn't matter.

 

[Rainshadow]

There are more than 10 billion transistors in the CPU. Which ones do you think you can replace? On modern iPhones, the batteries and screens are already replaceable. Certainly you aren't going to replace individual components on the circuit boards.

This feels a lot like California's Proposition 65

1986 California Proposition 65 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I know this article isn’t about Prop 65... however... I once bought a handsaw that had a prop 65 warning on it.

It stated that sawdust (SAWDUST!) was known as a potentially Carcinogenic substance in the state of CA. There wasn’t even any sawdust on the brand new handsaw. But now wood is dangerous. Like, wth 🤦‍♂️

 

[Loa]

Shameful? More like protecting people from themselves. Ask any mechanic about DIY stories.

You don't need to protect adult from themselves. That's patronizing at best, infantilizing at worst. I don't need or want either of those from a corporation.

 

[Loa]

I especially don’t like governments dictating how products should be made.

You'd rather have corporations deciding to restrict your options and force you to spend more money instead of having an elected government giving you more power?