EV cars blowing past gas cars in lower cost-per-mile and maintenance.

[PracticalMac]

Some great news to post!
EV cars blowing past gas cars in lower cost-per-mile and maintenance.

There was always question about how long the battery packs would last and general maintenance costs.
Great news it is significantly less than conventional gas powered cars, possibly half of that.

The data comes from an LA based Tesla rental called Tesloop (fleet of seven vehicles—a mix of Model Xs, Model 3s and a Model S ), for commuters needing to go from LAX to San Diego.
The article by Quartz shows reports very positive results, with all their fleet cars past 300,000 miles and only suffer a 23% loss in battery capacity of the oldest units,

Fleets live or die by their cost per mile. So far, Tesloop’s total cost per mile for maintenance has come in at around $0.06. That’s in line with industry averages for conventional vehicles, says John Wuich, head of fleet analytics for Donlen, a subsidiary of Hertz. But the company’s EVs are logging less time in the garage, since they don’t need oil changes and other services, while blazing far past the 100,000-mile mark after which most fleets sell off cars to keep down the total maintenance costs.

...

Sonnad predicts Tesloop’s Model 3 fleet will see total costs (which includes depreciation, or how much value the car loses before its sold) fall as low as $0.18 to $0.25 per mile after driving past 500,000 miles. That’s less than premium brands such as Mercedes, and even lower than the $0.32 to $0.35 for standard sedans. If high-mileage EVs can be outfitted with cheap refurbished battery packs, Sonnad predicts high-mileage cars that can retain their value will transform the car market collapsing the residual values of used gas cars.

Electric is more viable by the hour.

 

[benshive]

Not surprising. I can't wait until prices come down and I can afford a car like a Tesla. No gas, no oil changes, no emissions inspection, instant acceleration, etc.

 

[rdrr]

Some great news to post!
EV cars blowing past gas cars in lower cost-per-mile and maintenance.

There was always question about how long the battery packs would last and general maintenance costs.
Great news it is significantly less than conventional gas powered cars, possibly half of that.

The data comes from an LA based Tesla rental called Tesloop (fleet of seven vehicles—a mix of Model Xs, Model 3s and a Model S ), for commuters needing to go from LAX to San Diego.
The article by Quartz shows reports very positive results, with all their fleet cars past 300,000 miles and only suffer a 23% loss in battery capacity of the oldest units,



Electric is more viable by the hour.

I am all for alternative solutions, rather than giving money to the oil barons. With that said, the one thing that I am concerned over is what happens to these batteries when their life is over? What environmental impact will there be? Already there are concerns about the environmental hazards they emit during a car fire. Lots of long term questions out there, but Merica doesn't ponder about long term impact. Now! Now! Now!

 

[benshive]

I am all for alternative solutions, rather than giving money to the oil barons. With that said, the one thing that I am concerned over is what happens to these batteries when their life is over? What environmental impact will there be? Already there are concerns about the environmental hazards they emit during a car fire. Lots of long term questions out there, but Merica doesn't ponder about long term impact. Now! Now! Now!

Long-term questions that companies like Tesla are already working on trying to answer.

According to Tesla:

"A common question we hear is, “What happens to Tesla vehicle battery packs once they reach their end of life?” An important distinction between fossil fuels and lithium-ion batteries as an energy source is that while fossil fuels are extracted and used once, the materials in a lithium-ion battery are recyclable. When petroleum is pumped out of the ground, chemically refined and then burned, it releases harmful emissions into the atmosphere that are not recovered for reuse. Battery materials, in contrast, are refined and put into a cell, and will still remain at the end of their life, when they can be recycled to recover its valuable materials for reuse over and over again.”

and:

“At Gigafactory 1, Tesla is developing a unique battery recycling system that will process both battery manufacturing scrap and end-of-life batteries. Through this system, the recovery of critical minerals such as lithium and cobalt will be maximized along with the recovery of all metals used in the battery cell, such as copper, aluminum and steel. All of these materials will be recovered in forms optimized for new battery material production.”

“The closed-loop battery recycling process at Gigafactory 1 presents a compelling solution to move energy supply away from the fossil-fuel based practice of take, make and burn, to a more circular model of recycling end-of-life batteries for reuse over and over again. From an economic perspective, we expect to recognize significant savings over the long term, as the costs associated with large-scale battery material recovery and recycling will be far lower than purchasing and transporting new materials.”

 

[tshrimp]

I am ready for the electric truck. I cart around an ATV in the bed, and am off-road a lot. I was in the Ford dealership the other day, and they informed me "They are coming...soon".

 

[rdrr]

Long-term questions that companies like Tesla are already working on trying to answer.

Good for them working on it, but I do know that around 2-3% of current lithium ion batteries get recycled. We need a economical, environmentally friendly solution now. Not when we are sitting on a mountain of batteries leaking into our ground water.

 

[Falhófnir]

Long-term questions that companies like Tesla are already working on trying to answer.

Bigger question for me is when the batteries degrade as they surely will like in an iPhone or MacBook, that must be quite a chunk of the vehicle's cost, so will these cars all need to be written off after 5-8-10 years? I'd feel better about it when Aluminium Ion batteries reach the mainstream, they're meant to have a huge load of benefits one LiIon, including electrical charge density (less battery needed for same charge) and charge cycles/ lifespan.

 

[chown33]

Here's a recent Ars Technica article on real-world battery recycling:

Recycling cars’ lithium batteries is more complicated than you might think

First step: find some other way to use the batteries before taking them apart.

arstechnica.com

 

[H2SO4]

For now. Once these get widespread the car manufacturers and government will soon shift the goal posts and the status quo will be restored.

 

[cube]

People are snapping up cheap used ZOEs in Europe because you can just lease the battery.

 

[linuxcooldude]

Bigger question for me is when the batteries degrade as they surely will like in an iPhone or MacBook, that must be quite a chunk of the vehicle's cost, so will these cars all need to be written off after 5-8-10 years? I'd feel better about it when Aluminium Ion batteries reach the mainstream, they're meant to have a huge load of benefits one LiIon, including electrical charge density (less battery needed for same charge) and charge cycles/ lifespan.

My friend had a Prius, I think $2000.00 to replace a battery? I can imagine the cost on an all electric car.

 

[benshive]

My friend had a Prius, I think $2000.00 to replace a battery? I can imagine the cost on an all electric car.

Elon Musk has said that the batteries in the Model 3 should last 300k to 500k miles and be around $5k to $7k to replace.

 

[Juicy Box]

I wouldn't mind getting an EV, but two things prevent me from doing so.

The biggest one is that I have a townhouse without a garage. So charging it would be an issue. My next home will be a single family and will have a garage, but until that happens, charging a EV will be a problem for me. I suspect a lot of people are in a similar situation that I am in when it comes to the charging aspect.

The other big issue is the lack of range on EVs. It would be great for my commute, but long trips would be really inconvenient.

Last year, I bought a 2019 Jetta for a fraction of the price of the model 3 that I was looking at. A little bit boring, but the fuel mileage is incredible for an ICE.

Its average is 35.7 mpg, and the best tank I got was 42.3 MPG. On long drives, I can get over 50 MPG.

For the city driving that I typically do, I usually fill up about at 450 miles. Also, I can get well over 500 miles on a tank for long trips.

I think I am probably going to get something else in the next year or two, and give the Jetta to my children, and get something a little more fun.

I can't wait until prices come down and I can afford a car like a Tesla.

The high prices of some of the EVs is a deterrence for many I bet.

Like I mentioned above, I purchased a new Jetta for half the starting price of the Model 3, and it gets really good fuel economy.

If counting the price, fuel, and maintenance of the life time of the Jetta, it would probably still be under the average price of a model 3.

 

[Khalanad75]

One thing people ave to think about also is the charging at home. When PG&E shut off the power due to the high winds, there was a ton of people stranded because they couldn't charge their vehicle.

 

[Eraserhead]

Bigger question for me is when the batteries degrade as they surely will like in an iPhone or MacBook, that must be quite a chunk of the vehicle's cost, so will these cars all need to be written off after 5-8-10 years? I'd feel better about it when Aluminium Ion batteries reach the mainstream, they're meant to have a huge load of benefits one LiIon, including electrical charge density (less battery needed for same charge) and charge cycles/ lifespan.

If a Tesla is written off after 500k miles that is miles better than an ICE that gets written off at maybe 200k miles.

 

[cube]

If a Tesla is written off after 500k miles that is miles better than an ICE that gets written off at maybe 200k miles.

Does Tesla replace the battery for free when capacity drops below 80%?

 

[Tech198]

Long-term questions that companies like Tesla are already working on trying to answer.

According to Tesla:


and:

Ideally, should companies be doing that BEFORE that go they develop anything ?

Changing 'half way through' is good, but doing it before it starts is even better.

The argument you could use is "these cars are EV" so therefore fuelled y the fact we should have gone for recycle batteries from day #1.

Elon Musk has said that the batteries in the Model 3 should last 300k to 500k miles and be around $5k to $7k to replace.

Holy cow.... well that's why their last so long.. lol It should us that long to save up the cash. Unless its only 'richer' people who will dive these.

 

[cube]

It should us that long to save up the cash. Unless its only 'richer' people who will dive these.

I think the companies making small EVs first have it right.

 

[PracticalMac]

One thing people ave to think about also is the charging at home. When PG&E shut off the power due to the high winds, there was a ton of people stranded because they couldn't charge their vehicle.

Radio had discussion on that, the EV people were more than able to find chargers.
IN fact, one person with Nissan Leaf used his Leaf (car) to power fridge and TV. When low he drove to station and recharged (20 min), power for another day or 2.

Nissan actually created a system for their cars to power a house, but not sure if they implemented it in Japan.
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The biggest one is that I have a townhouse without a garage. So charging it would be an issue. My next home will be a single family and will have a garage, but until that happens, charging a EV will be a problem for me. I suspect a lot of people are in a similar situation that I am in when it comes to the charging aspect.

The other big issue is the lack of range on EVs. It would be great for my commute, but long trips would be really inconvenient.

Charging at station is about 80% in 15 min, 100% in 30.
With at least 100 miles in range, one can drive around a few days before needing recharge.

Tesla is breaking past 200 miles, and unless you go from Phoenix to El Paso you can now easily go anywhere.

 

[cube]

Radio had discussion on that, the EV people were more than able to find chargers.
IN fact, one person with Nissan Leaf used his Leaf (car) to power fridge and TV. When low he drove to station and recharged (20 min), power for another day or 2.

Nissan actually created a system for their cars to power a house, but not sure if they implemented it in Japan.

The point is to charge the vehicle at home when electricity is cheaper.

 

[PracticalMac]

Not surprising. I can't wait until prices come down and I can afford a car like a Tesla. No gas, no oil changes, no emissions inspection, instant acceleration, etc.

Try this:
Add up 5 years cost of gas, oil change, transmission and coolant change, emissions checks, brake pads (less ware than on ICE), then compare the total cost with Model 3 that does not have that.
I think it will be close to same total cost of ownership.
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The point is to charge the vehicle at home when electricity is cheaper.

Some locations it is free, a lure to come inside to shop/eat/spend $$.

This site suggests about $12 for full charge.

The long-range version of the Model 3 has a 75 kWh battery pack with a 310 mile range. If we still assume the average national electric pricing of 13 cents per kWh and a charging efficiency of 85%, then a full charge will cost $11.47. This is $3.70 per 100 miles of mixed city and freeway driving, or 3.7 cents per mile. This is almost 80% less than the cost per mile to drive the most popular gas-powered cars, which is approximately 20 cents per mile.

That that is if they are empty.
Chances are customer will want a top-off, so it could be small cost to get customer in door.

 

[KennethS]

One thing people ave to think about also is the charging at home. When PG&E shut off the power due to the high winds, there was a ton of people stranded because they couldn't charge their vehicle.

When the power is shut off, do the pumps at the gas stations work?

 

[cube]

When the power is shut off, do the pumps at the gas stations work?

Do they have generators?

 

[DearthnVader]

I'm interested to see more EV's, especially an EV f-250, but when we consider that something like 53% of our power grid runs on coal, I'm a little skeptical of the total emissions of EV's.

Also, the upgrades needed to the power grid should millions or tens of millions of people start buying EV's all at once.

 

[Ploki]

If a Tesla is written off after 500k miles that is miles better than an ICE that gets written off at maybe 200k miles.

Yeah, my 350k km volvo begs to differ.
I'm not against EV tho, and would buy one in a heartbeat. But the Volvo I drive was 5k€. Cheapest used tesla with 125k miles here is 40k€. I really can't afford that unfortunately.