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EV cars blowing past gas cars in lower cost-per-mile and maintenance.

pshufd said:
Solar isn't going to be that effective in my area as the stuff that causes power outages also block sunlight. People that need power and can't wait for the power company buy generators. It's been that way for a long time.
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I meant in the case of disasters. An earthquake will break down the electrical grid, but solar arrays will keep humming along, and solar arrays that survive hurricanes will be able to provide power for weeks while the grid is broken down.

In the case of wildfires and PG&E, as long as the smoke doesn't obscure the panels, you're going to still produce energy.

And, of course, while certain areas won't have power because of winter storms, increasingly people are moving away from the midwest and east-coast to the sunbelt, which is rife for major solar investment.

Again, ice storms and PG&E's incompetence are edge cases—important to consider—but really not as important as what 90 percent of people will do 90 percent of the time.

If we were all preparing for disasters, we'd be buying diesel Dodge Rams with extra gas tanks. But, most of us are still buying Honda Accords and Ford Mustangs.
 
hulugu said:
I meant in the case of disasters. An earthquake will break down the electrical grid, but solar arrays will keep humming along, and solar arrays that survive hurricanes will be able to provide power for weeks while the grid is broken down.

In the case of wildfires and PG&E, as long as the smoke doesn't obscure the panels, you're going to still produce energy.

And, of course, while certain areas won't have power because of winter storms, increasingly people are moving away from the midwest and east-coast to the sunbelt, which is rife for major solar investment.

Again, ice storms and PG&E's incompetence are edge cases—important to consider—but really not as important as what 90 percent of people will do 90 percent of the time.

If we were all preparing for disasters, we'd be buying diesel Dodge Rams with extra gas tanks. But, most of us are still buying Honda Accords and Ford Mustangs.
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It's not so much a disaster as just the more severe side of normal storms that we get.

The three most popular vehicles sold are huge trucks. F150 is #1. So yeah, most of us are buying huge trucks. Car sales have had stunning declines. I think that only 7 of the top 20 vehicles sold in the US are cars now.
 
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pshufd said:
Yes. But not a garage. I've been thinking about installing surveillance front and back. My neighbor is thinking of doing the same thing. I'd rather not leave it plugged in outside. Though I really would rather not charge it at home at all.
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Why would charging outside in your own driveway be an issue? And I say this as someone who has just installed top of the range locks and an alarm in my house so I’m fairly paranoid about security.
 
Eraserhead said:
Why would charging outside in your own driveway be an issue? And I say this as someone who has just installed top of the range locks and an alarm in my house so I’m fairly paranoid about security.
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My neighbor informed me of seeing suspicious people in our neighborhood during the day. He told me he was tempted to get his weapon. I don't recall a break-in in living here thirty years mainly because there are people at home all the time watching the neighborhood.

I'm also somewhat lazy when it's really cold outside. The fewer the number of things I have to do outside when it's teens or lower, the better.
 
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Do you have a list of charging stations located on BLM land where I regularly camp?

*crickets*

I thought as much...
 
cfurlin said:
Do you have a list of charging stations located on BLM land where I regularly camp?

*crickets*

I thought as much...
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The number of gas stations on BLM land is vanishingly small, if there are any, so I'm not sure this is necessarily a knock on EVs, so much as a reality of public lands. And, of course, as the number of EVs grow, gas stations in out-of-the-way places will grow to accommodate.

That said, this is a good reason for you, but no one is arguing that everybody's needs to buy an EV.

And, this is still an edge-case. An, edge-case that I also enjoy— Along with BLM land, I was putzing about a national park as well last week. But, nonetheless this is an edge-case.

Most driving is to work and home and school and the grocery store. How many miles do you spend getting to your favorite spot in BLM lands as compared to the rest of your driving? Unless, you live on a reservation, I suspect it's not the majority.

We'll have ICE vehicles for a long-time, but I think EVs can work for most people, most of the time. And, as EV technology matures, we'll probably see significant advantages.

Even the Overland community will probably find real advantages with EVs.
 
Ploki said:
I'm not against EV tho, and would buy one in a heartbeat. But the Volvo I drive was 5k€. Cheapest used tesla with 125k miles here is 40k€. I really can't afford that unfortunately.
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VW is claiming they will bring EVs to the masses with their "ID" line of EVs. They are evoking their history of bringing cars to the masses with the Beetle.

VW's ID line (EVs which should start to hit the market in 2020) is expected to have pricing on par with their gas counterparts. Granted VW are not known for their honesty lately (dieselgate), but here is the article:
www.cnet.com

VW thinks EVs give the brand an opportunity for a new 'magic moment'

The ID 4 electric SUV will debut in February and start at around $33,000 before incentives.
www.cnet.com www.cnet.com

I've been waiting for an affordable, electric small-to-mid-sized SUV/CUV. If VW really prices the ID.4 at $33,000 before incentives (as this article quotes) then after US Federal tax credit, that's an amazing mid-$20's price.

ID-Crozz-Exterior.jpg


I am surprised this news isn't rocking the EV world. The only reason I can think of is that the price hasn't been officially announced and we are all expecting a let down. After all, even budget brands like Kia and Hyundai charge nearly $40K for their small EVs. So how is a VW CUV going to undercut a Korean compact CUV by $5000-$7000? Put that way, it seems too good to be true.
 
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pshufd said:
The other problem with VW is quality, reliability, and maintainability.
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I don't really follow these sorts of things. What kind of problems?

If the reliability problems are electric-related, that's a HUGE concern obviously. On the other hand if they are powertrain-related, then it likely won't apply at all.

Now you are making me wonder what the VW warranty will be like for an EV.
 
ActionableMango said:
I don't really follow these sorts of things. What kind of problems?

If the reliability problems are electric-related, that's a HUGE concern obviously. On the other hand if they are powertrain-related, then it likely won't apply at all.

Now you are making me wonder what the VW warranty will be like for an EV.
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I drove Audis for 18 years. Audis are nice VWs. Audis are great to drive but an absolute maintenance nightmare.

I've heard similar about VWs.
 
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pshufd said:
Germany still uses a lot of Coal-Fired electricity.
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That is true. But it's also true that it's share in generating power has gone down over the years. Here are some numbers for Germany (hard coal and lignite):
  • 2016: 40,2% or 261,7 TWh
  • 2017: 36,9% or 241,3 TWh
  • 2018: 35,4% or 228,7 TWh
  • first half of 2019: 29,9% or 79,39 TWh
  • June 2019: 25,8% or 9,6 TWh
A remark about the maintenance. I get it that EV don't need engine oil change or a change of transmission fluid. But that's about it. "The rest" is about the same: brake fluid, coolant, air conditioning, wheel bearings, shocks and struts, tires - just to name a few.
Brakes are a bit special: regenerative braking reduces wear but if brakes are used rarely they tend to rust and might need to be changes early.

My Peugeot petrol has now 154.000km (95.700miles) on the clock. It requires an oil change every 30.000km (18.640miles) and that's what it got until 120.000km (so four in total). Since then I've halved the intervall to 15.000km.
You might have a different perception if you must change the engine oil every 3.000miles.
 
Martin81 said:
That is true. But it's also true that it's share in generating power has gone down over the years. Here are some numbers for Germany (hard coal and lignite):
  • 2016: 40,2% or 261,7 TWh
  • 2017: 36,9% or 241,3 TWh
  • 2018: 35,4% or 228,7 TWh
  • first half of 2019: 29,9% or 79,39 TWh
  • June 2019: 25,8% or 9,6 TWh
A remark about the maintenance. I get it that EV don't need engine oil change or a change of transmission fluid. But that's about it. "The rest" is about the same: brake fluid, coolant, air conditioning, wheel bearings, shocks and struts, tires - just to name a few.
Brakes are a bit special: regenerative braking reduces wear but if brakes are used rarely they tend to rust and might need to be changes early.

My Peugeot petrol has now 154.000km (95.700miles) on the clock. It requires an oil change every 30.000km (18.640miles) and that's what it got until 120.000km (so four in total). Since then I've halved the intervall to 15.000km.
You might have a different perception if you must change the engine oil every 3.000miles.
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If Germany greatly increases electricity demand via EV uptake, then the absolute amount of coal fired production would increase, correct?

When I talk about maintenance, I'm talking about stupid stuff breaking and costing a fortune for parts and to do the repair work. Not routine maintenance. I'm comparing brands: ICE to ICE. As my assumption is that EV to EV would be similar. Going from Audi to Toyota was going from one of the worst, in terms of maintenance, to the best. It was like night and day on maintenance. I like to keep my cars to between 200,000 and 250,000 miles.
 
pshufd said:
Ford has the best quality reputation and metrics of the US automakers and they're the brand I'd pick if I were buying a domestic. I'm not a Mustang type of drivers (I look for utility in vehicles), but there are a lot of people that like that car.
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Perhaps you missed it, the Mach-E is a crossover SUV built on the Mustang platform.
 
DearthnVader said:
Perhaps you missed it, the Mach-E is a crossover SUV built on the Mustang platform.
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I didn't know that. I thought that it was a traditional Mustang-like car.

I prefer large sedans myself. I do like the idea of a small SUV but I wouldn't really like one as a daily driver.
 
pshufd said:
I didn't know that. I thought that it was a traditional Mustang-like car.

I prefer large sedans myself. I do like the idea of a small SUV but I wouldn't really like one as a daily driver.
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I hear you, not really my cup of tea either, but I like to see more choice and completion in the EV space.

What I'd be excited for is an EV F-250, but we have a long way to go before an EV could tow 8 tons with a reasonable range.

What I would really like to see in this space is the manufactures agreeing on a system of standardized batteries, even if that meant the federal government imposing it.
 
Martin81 said:
A remark about the maintenance. I get it that EV don't need engine oil change or a change of transmission fluid. But that's about it. "The rest" is about the same: brake fluid, coolant, air conditioning, wheel bearings, shocks and struts, tires - just to name a few.
Click to expand...

I think you are limiting the definition of maintenance to only include regular scheduled maintenance. To me, maintaining a vehicle includes fixing unscheduled problems.

When I think about all of the things that have gone wrong in my vehicles over the years, the vast majority of them are related to the Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) powertrain and would not apply to an EV at all.

My ICE-exclusive problems:
  • Camshaft position sensor failure (stranded me)
  • Vacuum hose split (stranded me)
  • Ignition coil failure (almost stranded me, had to drive home very slowly on 2 of the 4 cylinders)
  • Head gasket failure (stranded me and had to rebuild top end of engine)
  • Timing chain failure (stranded me)
  • Fuel pump failure (stranded me)
  • Worn out clutch
  • Oxygen sensor failure
  • Loss of compression on one cylinder
  • Leaking oil
  • Leaking oil again (different car)
  • Exhaust leak
  • Unable to start engine (stranded me - a tuneup fixed this, including new spark plugs)
  • Unable to start engine (stranded me - old gas had plugged up the carbs)
  • ATF leak resulting in poor automatic shifts
  • Fuel gauge failure three times (due to, I kid you not, BMW using a fuel sensor strip that can't hold up to being in fuel) -- I'm about due to replace it for the fourth time
The few problems I've had that would also apply to EVs:
  • Window switch failure
  • Worn out wheel bearings
  • Punctured tires (stranded me in one case)
  • Headlight lens ghosting
Most of the problems exclusive to ICE, and every single one of the problems that stranded me cannot happen with an EV.

EVs do bring their own problems, like battery degradation after they get to be old cars. But have you people never heard of an ICE car needing thousands of dollars for maintenance when they get old?
 
ActionableMango said:
I think you are limiting the definition of maintenance to only include regular scheduled maintenance. To me, maintaining a vehicle includes fixing unscheduled problems.

When I think about all of the things that have gone wrong in my vehicles over the years, the vast majority of them are related to the Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) powertrain and would not apply to an EV at all.

My ICE-exclusive problems:
  • Camshaft position sensor failure (stranded me)
  • Vacuum hose split (stranded me)
  • Ignition coil failure (almost stranded me, had to drive home very slowly on 2 of the 4 cylinders)
  • Head gasket failure (stranded me and had to rebuild top end of engine)
  • Timing chain failure (stranded me)
  • Fuel pump failure (stranded me)
  • Worn out clutch
  • Oxygen sensor failure
  • Loss of compression on one cylinder
  • Leaking oil
  • Leaking oil again (different car)
  • Exhaust leak
  • Unable to start engine (stranded me - a tuneup fixed this, including new spark plugs)
  • Unable to start engine (stranded me - old gas had plugged up the carbs)
  • ATF leak resulting in poor automatic shifts
  • Fuel gauge failure three times (due to, I kid you not, BMW using a fuel sensor strip that can't hold up to being in fuel) -- I'm about due to replace it for the fourth time
The few problems I've had that would also apply to EVs:
  • Window switch failure
  • Worn out wheel bearings
  • Punctured tires (stranded me in one case)
  • Headlight lens ghosting
Most of the problems exclusive to ICE, and every single one of the problems that stranded me cannot happen with an EV.

EVs do bring their own problems, like battery degradation after they get to be old cars. But have you people never heard of an ICE car needing thousands of dollars for maintenance when they get old?
Click to expand...

You've never had to replace brakes, struts, bushings, control arms, power steering components, air conditioning compressors, climate control computers, wiper blade motors?

I brought this up in a comparison of brands; not a comparison of EVs vs ICE vehicles. My contention is that manufacturers that do a far better job on quality, reliability, maintainability on ICE vehicles will do a far better job on EVs as well. Which is why I had a look at the Honda Clarida as Honda is a brand I trust. Toyota is as well but they don't have an entry.
 
pshufd said:
You've never had to replace brakes, struts, bushings, control arms, power steering components, air conditioning compressors, climate control computers, wiper blade motors?

I brought this up in a comparison of brands; not a comparison of EVs vs ICE vehicles. My contention is that manufacturers that do a far better job on quality, reliability, maintainability on ICE vehicles will do a far better job on EVs as well. Which is why I had a look at the Honda Clarida as Honda is a brand I trust. Toyota is as well but they don't have an entry.
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I understand and agree with your point. To answer your questions:

Bushings: yes I forgot about that

Struts, control arms, power steering components, air conditioning compressors, climate control computers, wiper blade motors: no

I would consider brake pads and fluid to be scheduled maintenance. If you mean brake failure, then no.

Technically, I've had a "your brake pads are getting too thin" sensor failure twice, but I didn't count that because it is stupid and I didn't bother to fix it the second time. The vast majority of vehicles get by just fine without this. I can just look at the brake pads with my eyeballs and listen to the tell-tale squeal with my ears, just like everyone have always done.
 
ActionableMango said:
I would consider brake pads and fluid to be scheduled maintenance. If you mean brake failure, then no.

Technically, I've had a "your brake pads are getting too thin" sensor failure twice, but I didn't count that because it is stupid and I didn't bother to fix it the second time. The vast majority of vehicles get by just fine without this. I can just look at the brake pads with my eyeballs and listen to the tell-tale squeal with my ears, just like everyone have always done.
Click to expand...

You also have rotors, calipers, brake fluid hose leaks and even brake computers.

Nissan is recalling over 450,000 vehicles worldwide because a brake fluid leak could cause them to catch fire.

Nissan says an antilock brake actuator pump can leak fluid onto a circuit board, causing electrical shorts and fires.

ktla.com

Nissan Recalls Over 450,000 Vehicles That Could Catch Fire From Brake Fluid Leak

Nissan is recalling over 450,000 vehicles worldwide because a brake fluid leak could cause them to catch fire. Because of the fire risk, the company is urging owners to park the vehicles outdoors a…
ktla.com ktla.com

How long do you keep your cars?
 
pshufd said:
You also have rotors, calipers, brake fluid hose leaks and even brake computers.

How long do you keep your cars?
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I would count all of that under "brake failure", which I mentioned.

The only car I bought new was in 2004 and I still drive it.

Prior to that 7 years kept, but I'm not sure the data is meaningful because I could only afford a used vehicle which was 14 years old when I bought it.
 
I’ll be cool with electric vehicles when a 35,100-pound towing capacity is available for under 75k. Otherwise, I’m good with my 6.7l Cummins turbo diesel.
 
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