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How is this so different from the Starbucks case? Starbucks say in UK: we would love to pay for your healthcare system and crap, but you know, it's just that it's a lot of money—oh and by the way, we are not doing anything illegal.

It sounds familiar.

So your question is: How is it different? The difference is that Starbucks _claims_ they are buying their raw materials at excessive prices from outside the UK, which drops down their profits to zero. What they are paying is much more than any coffee making company would reasonably pay for their coffee. If _you_ could provide the same, identical coffee for cheaper, they wouldn't buy it from you.

When I learned about where the line is drawn between tax avoidance and tax evasion (disregarding the obvious case that when you lie to the tax office, that will be tax evasion), the distinction was like this: You can make business decisions by taking into account the tax consequences and that is fine. For example, if Starbucks got a 20% tax rebate for buying coffee in the UK, and as a consequence bought coffee in the UK even though it was 5% more expensive, that would be Ok. However, if you take actions that are not actually business decisions to change the way you are taxed, that is tax evasion. There is no way a company would make the business decision to spend $1,000,000 more to save $250,000 in taxes, and that is what Starbucks is doing.
 
...but couldn't explain why it wasn't unAmerican to hide 70% of your profits from America. ...

Actually, he did explain that. That 70% was never in the US in the first place, so the US government has no rational claim on it.

Imagine a world where every government can tax all of a company's profits, regardless of where the revenue came from.

Country A wants 35%.
Country B wants 30%.
Country C wants 25%.
Country D wants 20%.
Country E wants 15%.
Country F wants 10%.
Country G wants 5%.

That's only 7 countries, and a total tax rate of 140% of the company's profits.

If they each get to tax the company on *all* of its profits, then, as a group, they'll soon be collecting more *taxes* than the company has *revenue*.
 
Actually, he did explain that. That 70% was never in the US in the first place, so the US government has no rational claim on it.

Imagine a world where every government can tax all of a company's profits, regardless of where the revenue came from.

Country A wants 35%.
Country B wants 30%.
Country C wants 25%.
Country D wants 20%.
Country E wants 15%.
Country F wants 10%.
Country G wants 5%.

That's only 7 countries, and a total tax rate of 140% of the company's profits.

If they each get to tax the company on *all* of its profits, then, as a group, they'll soon be collecting more *taxes* than the company has *revenue*.

You get a discount for taxes already paid..If the country you are earning in charges 25% and the US it's 35% you pay 10% to bring it back not 35% on top of the 25% already paid.
 
You get a discount for taxes already paid..If the country you are earning in charges 25% and the US it's 35% you pay 10% to bring it back not 35% on top of the 25% already paid.

I believe he was talking about a hypothetical scenario where countries were claiming taxes on earnings that remain outside their jurisdiction.
 
So your question is: How is it different? The difference is that Starbucks _claims_ they are buying their raw materials at excessive prices from outside the UK, which drops down their profits to zero. What they are paying is much more than any coffee making company would reasonably pay for their coffee. If _you_ could provide the same, identical coffee for cheaper, they wouldn't buy it from you.

When I learned about where the line is drawn between tax avoidance and tax evasion (disregarding the obvious case that when you lie to the tax office, that will be tax evasion), the distinction was like this: You can make business decisions by taking into account the tax consequences and that is fine. For example, if Starbucks got a 20% tax rebate for buying coffee in the UK, and as a consequence bought coffee in the UK even though it was 5% more expensive, that would be Ok. However, if you take actions that are not actually business decisions to change the way you are taxed, that is tax evasion. There is no way a company would make the business decision to spend $1,000,000 more to save $250,000 in taxes, and that is what Starbucks is doing.

The difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion has nothing to do with "making business decisions". Actually is way simpler than that.

The thing is: is it illegal or not? If you follow the law, is legal. And as far as I know, everything that Starbucks have done it's perfectly legal, even when everybody think it was an indecent way of proceeding.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2
 
You get a discount for taxes already paid..If the country you are earning in charges 25% and the US it's 35% you pay 10% to bring it back not 35% on top of the 25% already paid.

And you pay 0% if you don't 'bring it back'.

The whole 'bring it back' is a misnomer anyway, since it was never *here* in the first place. The US *wants* to tax that other 70%, but has no legal or rational way to do so. In response they're whining that Apple isn't *voluntarily* giving them a legal or rational way to tax it.

If the US can tax the 70% that was never in the US to start with, then *ANY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD* can do the same for whatever fraction was never in their country.

If the US *wants* to be able to tax that 70%, they need to make it at least *moderately* attractive for companies to bring that money across the border in the first place. Simply whining about that money not being 'repatriated' isn't going to do it. Neither is accusing a company of the 'wrongdoing' of not paying taxes that aren't owed... on money that isn't within US jurisdiction... and never was.
 
Actually, he did explain that. That 70% was never in the US in the first place, so the US government has no rational claim on it.

Imagine a world where every government can tax all of a company's profits, regardless of where the revenue came from.

Country A wants 35%.
Country B wants 30%.
Country C wants 25%.
Country D wants 20%.
Country E wants 15%.
Country F wants 10%.
Country G wants 5%.

That's only 7 countries, and a total tax rate of 140% of the company's profits.

If they each get to tax the company on *all* of its profits, then, as a group, they'll soon be collecting more *taxes* than the company has *revenue*.

Essentially, the argument is that the US (country A if you will) has more of a claim than other countries to tax those profits, because all of these profits are essentially returns to R&D which was done in the United States and supported BY United States R&D tax credits, not to mention supported by the US court system and educational system.
 
And you pay 0% if you don't 'bring it back'.

The whole 'bring it back' is a misnomer anyway, since it was never *here* in the first place. The US *wants* to tax that other 70%, but has no legal or rational way to do so. In response they're whining that Apple isn't *voluntarily* giving them a legal or rational way to tax it.

If the US can tax the 70% that was never in the US to start with, then *ANY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD* can do the same for whatever fraction was never in their country.

If the US *wants* to be able to tax that 70%, they need to make it at least *moderately* attractive for companies to bring that money across the border in the first place. Simply whining about that money not being 'repatriated' isn't going to do it. Neither is accusing a company of the 'wrongdoing' of not paying taxes that aren't owed... on money that isn't within US jurisdiction... and never was.

Or punish them for not brining it back. I don't do carrots for US business anymore just a stick.
 
The discussion is taxes as a whole not federal income tax specifically. Federal income tax is not the only tax the federal government collects from an individual or in a individuals name. State taxes are another discssion all on there own that no one brought up.

Make up your mind. Or re-conjugate.

I should add: This discussion is based on potential income tax that Apple has ($6b) and would ($15b) pay. That also does not include employer taxes, those are included elsewhere on Apple's financial statements. We have not been talking about those. Obviously, those are additional cost to individuals and companies. Doesn't mean I can't add up the income tax.
 
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Everything you said only makes my case. What you are saying is exactly why everything would be more fair and equitable without any political parties. Of course this is extremely unlikely to happen anytime soon, because like you, most voters are stuck in the "us against them" team sport mentality. It's the animal herd thing and only a larger expanded awareness will fix it. The fact that you defend it with such vigor only proves my point. I'm not holding my breath for any real change in the near future, in fact if it ever does come to pass I'll be long dead. ;)

It's impossible for it to happen by the very nature of our political process. Also, politics isn't any more divisive today than it was when our founding fathers were president (it's actually a whole lot better). People were nasty in the early 1800s, I mean freaking Burr shot Hamilton. Jefferson called the federalists terrorists. I mean really? This is how our system works and it seems to be doing alright for us.
 
"Imagine there's no countries..." Scary stuff. :eek:

And just who would oversee this international tax? The UN? :eek:

It's not an actual tax. It's a rate guideline that countries agree to and enforce via their own local laws in ways that they choose.
 
Nothing in the OP brought up state taxes, you did.
:confused: Your entire OP was that I was ignoring other taxes, so I mentioned one. Or do you mean maknik's OP that I originally responded to? It has been MY claim that that OP only mentioned Fed Inc Tax, so I only discussed that tax. You dragged us down this "other tax" road. Or, do you mean the MacRumors story OP about the Senate hearing today? It also only has discussed Country-level income tax, so that is all I discussed originally. I had no reason to discuss any other tax until you complained about it.

Does just the fact that I post offend you? MAKE UP YOUR MIND. Or at least make a point instead of just claiming I'm not posting about the "right" topic, regardless of what I say. If you are just following me around to complain that I exist, I guess I'll pass that on to the mods.
 
You're right. Socialism is great...until you run out of other people's money. I'm sure it's just coincidence that modern civilization was built on the virtues of capitalism, while socialism has failed to do much of anything aside from ruin economies and end lives.
Have you looked at Modern Civilization lately? I wouldn't go patting myself on the back for that.

As for ending lives? Base that assertion on something.
 
Therefore, I'm not arguing that deficits are always bad, or making any sort of statement on the current deficit. I merely point out that it is a tradeoff -- anything you borrow today must be paid tomorrow, and that you must understand the costs and benefits. So, the real question must be, do the economic gains made by deficit spending outweight the costs of economic contraction whenever we have to start paying down the debt?

Yes, I agree. The excess debt incurred in lean years must be repaid during economic recovery. I think the confidence we can have that the debt can be repaid is a function of just how the economy faltered and why the deficits incurred, and of the prospects for a full recovery to the historic norm.

When an economy goes into recession substantial productive resources are rendered unproductive--factories, raw materials, and labor among them. As a consequence the tax base is considerably diminished at the same time as social welfare costs (unemployment compensation, food stamps, ADC, and Medicaid, as well as Social Security and Medicare payments to seniors retiring involuntarily) are dramatically increasing, creating substantial deficits even before stimulus spending. When a recession also sees real estate values drop sharply, the tax base for many state and local governments drops as well, often causing massive layoffs. Federal assistance to these governments increases the deficit as well.

When a recession occurs in the wake of substantial increases in private debt (credit cards, student loans, equity lines of credit, mortgages) the economic uncertainty causes even those with stable incomes to divert discretionary spending to the repayment of debt, lowering spending. The newly unemployed and those fearing unemployment also retrench, further lowering spending. The central bank during a recession acts to lower interest rates, but this also results in a diminution of income to net creditors and to retirees who accordingly reduce their spending. The deficit increases while private spending decreases. In America this household spending accounts for some 70% of American GDP and its reduction has a meaningful effect on the economy.

Since the spending of any one of us is the income of another of us, there is a rippling multiplier effect as reductions in spending are felt throughout the economy. The scarcity of discretionary spending causes companies to avoid investment in production, slowing new hiring and jeopardizing current employees. Because there is no demand despite an extremely low opportunity cost of funds, there can be no "crowding out" of private investment. Without demand there is little upward wage pressure, and little danger of inflation. As far as default goes, the U.S. debt is denominated in dollars, and as long as there is one tree standing, it is impossible for the U.S. to be forced to default on its debts. (Foreign exchange rates can be relatively affected though, but a cheaper dollar means more exports and less imports, which helps the U.S. economy.) The short term consequences of deficits during a recession are not alarming.

Nonetheless, excess public debt needs to be reduced in the long term. Overwhelmingly, economists believe that if normal levels of economic activity are restored, the reversal of all the multiplied reductions in productive resources returning the economy to an historical normal growth rate can easily reduce the debt adequately through historically normal levels of taxation. As you say, whether or not this is a correct assumption--despite the mountain of historical data supporting it--is not certain.

What is assured, though, is that if unemployment remains high--and it tops 8% in several highly-populated states, and 22% for those under 25--we will create a permanent class of unemployable or underemployed. Young people who have no chance to develop necessary skills in entry-level positions will be passed over for the newest crop of graduates, and older workers who haven't worked for a year or more will have great difficulty being hired even in a recovering economy. Every day that we fail to add the fiscal stimulus the economy desperately needs to the extraordinary monetary stimulus the Fed has been feverishly supplying raises the likelihood that we are so degrading our workforce and our infrastructure that full recovery will be impossible. And if buyers of our sovereign debt lose confidence that our government can act decisively to address our economic challenges, then we risk losing one of our greatest economic tools--having our currency serve as the reserve for the world.

So while there is some risk that if we increase our public debt it may remain high and costly for longer than we expect, the decade-long experience of Japan has proven to a certainty that trying to recover from a deep recession with half-measures, and pulling back stimulus at the first sign of recovery, serves only to prolong the misery. The 1937 experience of the FDR administration teaches the same lesson.

This is one case, I think, where the cure can not possibly be worse than the disease.
 
This focusing on Apple for political gains is sad, real sad.

Instead of fixing the tax code themselves, they try to divert attention by accusing Apple of being tax cheats for daring to follow the tax laws that the senate itself created in the first place.

It's the same as the Chinese government accusing Apple of bad practices just to look like they are trying to protect their citizens.

Apple has it's faults, but it's pathetic that people try to use them to further their own gains simply because anything involving Apple get's more attention.
You can't tell me this is the first Government "Dog 'N' Pony' Show you've ever seen, can you?
 
Have you looked at Modern Civilization lately? I wouldn't go patting myself on the back for that.

As for ending lives? Base that assertion on something.

Once again, there's no arguing with your logic. Life was way better when clean water was a precious commodity, food shortages were common and lethal, there were no modern medicine or vaccines, we had to travel by horseback, a cross-atlantic trip killed about half the travelers, books were uncommon and expensive, clothes were valuable due to having no manufacturing process, education was reserved only for the highest class, slavery was common practice around the world, women were second class citizens in all cultures, and we had no telephones, no electricity, and no rights. Funny how ALL those things that lasted thousands of years changed within 200 years when just one country tried capitalism. What a coincidence.

Good thing we have socialism now. Even though it has killed millions of people in the 20th century (the exact estimate is 100 million). Do the names Castro, Stalin, Mao, Hitler, and Pol Pot mean anything to you? Socialism kills people who oppose socialism. Socialism also kills people when it fails to support its own people, like the millions starving to death in North Korea.

Refute it if you like, but you're just dooming yourself to repeat history, and for what? A free lunch at someone else's expense? Shame.
 
Everything you said sounds real good. Unfortunately you are only superficially correct. The mainstream news media portrayed the situation exactly how Rand Paul knew they would. I watched all the main channels and every one of them said for the most part that Apple was brought it before congress because they were using questionable tax practices and congress was going to get to the bottom of it by grilling Tim Cook. Complete B/S. Even you know that. The truth is always spun to make everything more exciting and titillating. This is why Rand Paul gave his little speech. You seem to have missed his purpose, and also missed the true purpose of congress, which is to point fingers and make scape goats for their own lack of doing anything at all to fix the problem.

So you're saying that Rand Paul knew the media would spin it wrongly and decided to put on a show to counteract that? No offense, but I think that's an absurd interpretation and borders on apologist nonsense. You should familiarize yourself with the concept of Occam's razor which is, more or less, that the more convoluted an explanation gets, the higher the chances are that the simple explanation is correct. Simple explanation: Paul saw an opportunity to show his support for big business while casting the Democrats and Republicans in the room as incompetent bozos. I'm sure his supporters loved the performance.

This should have been fixed years ago, but please go on and defend their lack of action. Let me guess... it's the Republicans fault. :)

I'm defending neither party here, just pointing out that Rand Paul was grandstanding and making a fool of himself.
 
Once again, there's no arguing with your logic. Life was way better when clean water was a precious commodity, food shortages were common and lethal, there were no modern medicine or vaccines, we had to travel by horseback, a cross-atlantic trip killed about half the travelers, books were uncommon and expensive, clothes were valuable due to having no manufacturing process, education was reserved only for the highest class, slavery was common practice around the world, women were second class citizens in all cultures, and we had no telephones, no electricity, and no rights. Funny how ALL those things that lasted thousands of years changed within 200 years when just one country tried capitalism. What a coincidence.

Good thing we have socialism now. Even though it has killed millions of people in the 20th century (the exact estimate is 100 million). Do the names Castro, Stalin, Mao, Hitler, and Pol Pot mean anything to you? Socialism kills people who oppose socialism. Socialism also kills people when it fails to support its own people, like the millions starving to death in North Korea.

Refute it if you like, but you're just dooming yourself to repeat history, and for what? A free lunch at someone else's expense? Shame.
So you attribute all those things to Socialism? Wow, that's a stretch. You really think those Totalitarian regimes were "Socialists" and you think "Capitalism" is an American invention?

If you'd like to argue with my "Logic" you might try constructing a rational argument, rather than stringing together unrelated items in a run-on sentence.

That is not an argument, it's just a rant.
 
So while there is some risk that if we increase our public debt it may remain high and costly for longer than we expect, the decade-long experience of Japan has proven to a certainty that trying to recover from a deep recession with half-measures, and pulling back stimulus at the first sign of recovery, serves only to prolong the misery. The 1937 experience of the FDR administration teaches the same lesson.

This is one case, I think, where the cure can not possibly be worse than the disease.

An excellent explanation of the macroeconomic forces at work here.

There are two questions that remain in my mind, however, that you could perhaps help me answer.

First, is increased government spending really the "cure" to unemployment? Now, I should tell you, I am not relying on any economic theory here, I am simply, well, curious. It could be, of course, that the massive stimulus spending package from a couple years ago really prevented a much worse collapse than actually happened, but could it not also be possible that much of this stimulus spending didn't do a whole lot of good -- after all, unemployment is still quite high. It seems to be the case that a lot of it, instead of actually going to "productive" and efficient uses, was wasted. Does it still then have the intended effect of stimulating aggregate demand and returning the economy to full employment? Or is there perhaps a more effective way of accomplishing this task.

Either way, is there some sort of firm empirical link between deficit spending and unemployment reduction?

Secondly, I absolutely agree with you -- sound economic policy dictates there should be deficits in contractionary year that are paid for by surpluses in expansionary years. It makes complete sense economically. Politically, however, it doesn't seem to work quite that smoothly. The last time we had a surplus was at the end of the Clinton years, and only for 4 years. The last time before that was for a year in 1969. On the whole, we don't seem to be very good as a nation at paying down or debts, particularly in recent years. Previously, the pattern seemed to be we incur a large debt (typically resulting from a way), and then we run surpluses for a number of years to pay the debt down. However, that trend seems to have been broken following WWII. The debts incurred from Vietnam and Iraq have been unmatched by budget surpluses. Additionally, it seems as though Americans have come to expect the Bush era tax cuts and take them for granted as something they deserve. Thus, temporary fiscal stimulus turns into a long-run problem, because no politician will want to raise taxes and decrease benefits -- its not really a popular thing to do.

So, this is an interesting point I got from the book Taxing Ourselves (great book, by the way) -- would it not make more sense to resolve these types of recessions using monetary policy exclusively?

Otherwise, it seems as if we are in big trouble. If the current trends continue, even servicing the national debt will become an unbearable burden, let alone beginning to pay it all down.

Thoughts?
 
It's impossible for it to happen by the very nature of our political process. Also, politics isn't any more divisive today than it was when our founding fathers were president (it's actually a whole lot better). People were nasty in the early 1800s, I mean freaking Burr shot Hamilton. Jefferson called the federalists terrorists. I mean really? This is how our system works and it seems to be doing alright for us.

Yes, it's an evolutionary process and eventually it will get there. It will happen very slowly over many years when people like you finally see the need. You currently believe the system works and is doing alright for us? I have nothing else to say. :eek:
 
So you're saying that Rand Paul knew the media would spin it wrongly and decided to put on a show to counteract that? No offense, but I think that's an absurd interpretation and borders on apologist nonsense. You should familiarize yourself with the concept of Occam's razor which is, more or less, that the more convoluted an explanation gets, the higher the chances are that the simple explanation is correct. Simple explanation: Paul saw an opportunity to show his support for big business while casting the Democrats and Republicans in the room as incompetent bozos. I'm sure his supporters loved the performance.



I'm defending neither party here, just pointing out that Rand Paul was grandstanding and making a fool of himself.

Well you're entitled to your opinion about Rand Paul. I find his flying in the face of accepted congressional protocol extremely refreshing. As I said before I don't agree with a lot of his thinking, but when he's right, he's right.
By the way, I am familiar with Occam's razor, and was probably before you were born. I believe my explanation is far simpler than your distorted view. In fact your thinking is so tainted by your intense personal dislike of Rand that it's actually comedic.
 
I believe my explanation is far simpler than your distorted view. In fact your thinking is so tainted by your intense personal dislike of Rand that it's actually comedic.

You're saying Rand Paul playing a game of trying to outwit an anticipated media spin by putting on a display of behavior intended to counter that perception is a simpler explanation that him showing off for his supporters?

Huh.

Regardless, I'm amused you think I harbor some kind of "intense personal dislike" of Rand Paul because I don't. I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. Can I not criticize his behavior without being deemed hateful? I don't even know much about him.

My criticism was based purely on what I saw when I watched the full video of the hearing. I formed my own opinion about what he was doing that had nothing to do with the media or any pre-existing opinions of the man. It just struck me as very churlish and intentionally playing to the cameras.
 
You're saying Rand Paul playing a game of trying to outwit an anticipated media spin by putting on a display of behavior intended to counter that perception is a simpler explanation that him showing off for his supporters?

Huh.

Regardless, I'm amused you think I harbor some kind of "intense personal dislike" of Rand Paul because I don't. I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. Can I not criticize his behavior without being deemed hateful? I don't even know much about him.

My criticism was based purely on what I saw when I watched the full video of the hearing. I formed my own opinion about what he was doing that had nothing to do with the media or any pre-existing opinions of the man. It just struck me as very churlish and intentionally playing to the cameras.

We see the world very differently. Lets leave it at that. :)
 
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