External enclosure eSATA speeds

[nanofrog]

The TR8MP comes with the highpoint RR622 card

That card works fine in a mac pro. I use it for JBOD, haven't tried its (software) raid capabilities.

I got the first number wrong; I meant the RR622.

That card didn't initially work under OS X IIRC, and their site still doesn't indicated that it will.

They may be including the Rocket Dual eSATA 6Gb/s For Mac instead (uses the existing SATA drivers in OS X).

And changing the solder mask (where the board's color comes from), is rather common to give some differentiation when it's sold to other vendors (OEM product that's provided).

In Highpoint's case, they don't manufacture anything, and get all their gear from ODM's. So there's a good chance Sans Digital is using the same ODM, or another one that's using the same reference design (Marvell 88SE9485).

 

[lbeck]

So the RR622 card that comes with the Sans Digital from Newegg will work in my MacPro?

Will I see a noticeable difference if I use that RAID card vs the Newer tech card and a software RAID?

Also, what card could I buy that would give me true eSATA 3 speeds?

 

[dknightd]

So the RR622 card that comes with the Sans Digital from Newegg will work in my MacPro?

It did for me. Out of the box it did not support a PM enclosure - only saw one disk per port. After installing the included software/driver, it saw all disks in a PM box.
I wonder if the difference between the various apparently very similar cards is the software.

Ask SansDigital (or newegg) if it will work for you. They are selling them, so if there is some problem they should stand behind it. I'm not going to stand behind anything I say here, it is worth exactly what you pay for it. Now if you want to hire me as a consultant, that would be a different story.

Will I see a noticeable difference if I use that RAID card vs the Newer tech card and a software RAID?

If they are in fact the same card, then I'd expect performance to be the same.

Also, what card could I buy that would give me true eSATA 3 speeds?

It is not just the card, or the ports, it is the whole system that matters.
I don't think there are esata3 Port multiplier enclosures yet. And I don't think there are any single disks that deliver what esata3 promises.

My guess would be that if you fill the TR8MP with reasonably fast disks,
and use osx software raid 0 on all 8 disks, using both ports on the 622 card, you will get speeds around 400MB/s (I don't know what the limiting factor would be, the single pci channel, or the PM chipset, or something else). That is close to what esata3 promises. I suspect if you used two TR8MP enclosures, 3 fast disks per esata channel, and both ports on two cards, you could exceed esata3 speeds (or maybe better would be to use a single card, with 4 esata2 ports, and 4 pci channels - but the number of channels used does not always reflect on the speed the card can actually perform, so who knows). For right now, there is really no advantage to having a 6GB/s esata port - that might not be true in the future. So, you could wait . .. or use SAS. To be honest, I think it is fruitless to even bother trying to get these speeds - they are more of less only available to benchmark type tests - I'm not sure there is any Mac software that produces useful results that can actually do disk IO this fast (of course, I could be wrong . . .)

If you are looking for fast benchmark tests, look around, I think I ran across one somewhere where they were getting 1000MB/S disk IO speeds on a mac pro. Don't remember where. Let me google for a second - OK here you go http://www.firmtek.com/seritek/seritek-2me4-e/perform/
20 disks in raid 0 using 5 PM enclosures, and two pci cards. A geeks delight, but again, probably not very useful for most people.

 

[lbeck]

Thanks Dknightd ....

I may have asked the wrong question. I was wondering how much of a difference I would notice from using a hardware RAID card (like the one that comes with the Sans Digital kit from Newegg) vs using a software RAID.

 

[dknightd]

Thanks Dknightd ....

I may have asked the wrong question. I was wondering how much of a difference I would notice from using a hardware RAID card (like the one that comes with the Sans Digital kit from Newegg) vs using a software RAID.

I don't think the RR622 card is hardware raid. Rather, it is hardware that supports (included) raid software.

 

[nanofrog]

I was wondering how much of a difference I would notice from using a hardware RAID card (like the one that comes with the Sans Digital kit from Newegg) vs using a software RAID.

The kits they offer are usually just SATA controllers + drivers.

A proper RAID card is substantially more expensive (external 8 port cards go for $550 - 700USD for Areca, ATTO is more). Then you've the enclosure (TR8X) on top of that (it does come with the necessary external cables, which is a savings of ~$120USD, so this enclosure is a good value).

As per performance, it can matter DRASTICALLY. You can get a true RAID card over 1GB/s (PM enclosures + eSATA cards can't touch this). They also offer levels software cannot do, and additional features (especially Online Expansion and recovery that aren't available for software implementations).

But you pay for it (not just the RAID card, but you have to use enterprise drives as well <for mechanical>, which are more money for the same capacity; they're also better drives).

It all comes down to the details (how many drives in the set, how are they distributed over the available ports, RAID level used, ....).

 

[lbeck]

Oh wow, so I have to use Enterprise drives if I get a proper Raid card? If so, then the RAID card is out, those drives are twice the cost.

 

[nanofrog]

Oh wow, so I have to use Enterprise drives if I get a proper Raid card? If so, then the RAID card is out, those drives are twice the cost.

Yes, as it has to do with the recovery timings.

Consumer disks are set to 0,0, (read, write respectively, in seconds), while enterprise disks are set to 7,0. There's more to them however (better specifications and additional sensors). This is because the consumer disks are meant to be attached to a SATA port that's controlled by the OS (OS has control of recovery in such cases). But with a RAID card, it has to take over the recovery function, and given how the drives are meant to be used (availability of data in this case), different recovery timings are necessary (prevents the RAID card from getting hung).

As per being twice as much however, not usually (comparing the right products to one another). The Caviar Black 1TB (WD1002FAEX), goes for $90 on newegg, while the RE3 1TB (WD1002FBYS) goes for $130 on newegg. Please note, both are 1TB, 7200rpm disks. You might also want to note that the 1TB disks are the "sweet spot" right now.

It can happen when/if you're comparing Green drives vs. 7200rpm, or especially 2TB disks (even the consumer Green 2TB vs. Enterprise Green 2TB; $130 vs. $250 respectively = special case from what I've seen on pricing), you will see a more significant price difference. Part of it is an unfair comparison (capacity only, not matching the rpm as well), and in the case of the 2TB disks, they're still expensive (more than 2x 1TB units for 7200rpm models, close to 2x for Green versions).

 

[philipma1957]

I got a really good deal on some wd re4 2tb hdds. 6 for about $1290.00. That is about the best you can do if you stumble a good reseller on ebay. they came sealed and in warranty. I went to the wdc site checked the warranties and then i registered them under my account. If I purchased them at newegg they would be over 1650.00 plus tax.


http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136579&Tpk=wd2003fyys

 

[nanofrog]

I got a really good deal on some wd re4 2tb hdds. 6 for about $1290.00. That is about the best you can do if you stumble a good reseller on ebay. they came sealed and in warranty. I went to the wdc site checked the warranties and then i registered them under my account. If I purchased them at newegg they would be over 1650.00 plus tax.


http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136579&Tpk=wd2003fyys

That's quite a deal. Lucky b.....

I've always been a bit nervous of eBay for disks though (always worried about "seconds" that got sold out of the back door if you will, or Refurbished units without any statement of such, rather than overstock bought at a great price).

I take they all passed with "flying colors" for initial surface scans?

 

[philipma1957]

Trick is only do it with wd 5 year warranty drives. ie caviar black or the re4's. only do it with a good seller 99 percent and 100 plus sales. check with seller that the warranty is good.

as soon as the drive gets to your home go to wd and check warranty. if the warranty is good register it in your account.

(if warranty is bad you can have ebay buyers protection fix the problem.)

at this point in time even if the drive breaks you will be sure to get a replacement. wd has a discount to return the drive. only $6.50 to ups it back. so if you buy 6 drives at a 400 dollar discount a return does not make you lose money.

once you know it is all covered you test it out .. i do a few scans I set it up as a raid0 and write zeroes over it 2 passes. I set it up as a raid1 and run zeroes over it 1 pass. I then put it aside as good. I resell some. I keep some. I build 2 drive raid0 or raid1 enclosures for a few customers. the difference with my sale vs one from owc is mine will be tested more for sure. So even though I have a small customer base they get a good deal and a pre tested unit.

Wd has very good warranty service. I keep 1 or 2 setups at home to replace the customers . It helps a lot of guys that can run the living He L L out of a program but their IT skills are so so.

 

[lbeck]

Yes, I was exaggerating a bit about twice as much. But, the enterprise drives for the 2TB capacity are usually $100 more. Thats too much imo, especially when you have to buy multiple.

Thanks for all your help! I've learned a lot

 

[nanofrog]

Yes, I was exaggerating a bit about twice as much. But, the enterprise drives for the 2TB capacity are usually $100 more. Thats too much imo, especially when you have to buy multiple.

Thanks for all your help! I've learned a lot

It comes down to "you get what you pay for". For use in a system that doesn't run 24/7 (high availability), such as a home computer (not mission critical applications), you don't need enterprise disks.

But when you're using a proper RAID card, you need them (not an option, as the consumer models won't be stable when attached to the card).