Sidebar Sidebar
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

Other Eye-strain while using iPhone X and up

Status
The first post of this thread is a WikiPost and can be edited by anyone with the appropiate permissions. Your edits will be public.

Are you experiencing this issue?

  • Total voters
    2,027
Yeah that’s so weird this is clearly a defined and known about phenomenon and as you say MR do tend to write article about the most ridiculous little things; “Next year’s iPhone rumoured to have next generation chip” so it strikes me as very odd that they have wilfully ignored this story for so long.
 
  • Like
Reactions: jimmy_uk, DJTaurus and Leindt
martin2345uk said:
Yeah that’s so weird this is clearly a defined and known about phenomenon and as you say MR do tend to write article about the most ridiculous little things; “Next year’s iPhone rumoured to have next generation chip” so it strikes me as very odd that they have wilfully ignored this story for so long.
Click to expand...
I also don't understand why they don't make a simple article commenting on this, as this post is one of the longest on the forum. But many important YouTubers who know the subject don't make videos either, nor do they usually mention it. Here in Spain, there is a YouTuber who reviews phones (@GeekdegafasYT) who has started to talk about PWM in his smartphone review videos, and I think he's the only one who does it here.

But most of the YouTubers I see either don't know about it or just mention it, and many of them are channels with millions of followers and millions of views that sometimes talk a lot about cameras and go into technical issues, but the truth is that they don't know anything about screens other than whether it's OLED or LCD and the brightness.

I understand that they are not engineers and that is not their job, but I find it curious. In addition, in China this issue is much better known, and all brands place special emphasis on eye protection (as the use of the devices is much more intense there). And the Chinese smartphone influencers there put much more emphasis on eye protection, PWM, etc, but much, much more, analyzing every little detail of the screen on many occasions.
 
  • Like
Reactions: !!! and from reddit the_top_g
from reddit the_top_g said:
Thank you for the above. I must admit I did read each reply multiple times, while thoroughly evaluating what I should do from here on.

Thus I have come to a decision.

I will continue the PWM sub, and to continue my activities in sharing more about this evolving screen lighting phenomenon.

As to those (like the above former member) that use the platform to advance their own hidden agenda, I will be respond by comply with Reddit moderator guidelines. That is to just ban them from the start.

That is to “cut the head off a snake, and the body will die”. Since these individuals have little regard for the consequence or any accountability of their actions.

The guideline was probably also given because history has often shown that these people secondary objective is just to polarize the community.

For instance with my above clarification statement on my rationale of the ban. It only merely took 10 minutes at most to create discord among the community. However, I have to take up to 2.5 hours to gather the above documentation to justify my decision.

The proportion spent between what I have to commit (150 mins), vs their 10 mins of discord is simply not in equilibrium.

Furthermore, if I were to spend 2.5 hours to justify my decision, and were to deal with 5 of these discord seekers per week ~ that would take up to a solid 12.5 hours. With 12.5 hours per week, I could have used the time to further upgrade my skills ~ and that is to someday become eligible to write and publish official argumentative research study with supporting data, and why there is a need to address the needs of the minority of population that have quietly fallen behind - due to this screen lighting flickers phenomenon.

Honestly, I do not really have to answer to anyone for my decision for the ban. I have written the above to clarify my stand because I was requested but this is perhaps the first and the last time I’ll do it. The reason being as as above as what I have brought up.

I expect the pwm sensitive sub to shrink in the number of members from here forth. More discord will be made against me from here on.

I have read some of the screenshots allegations and it is really ridiculous. For instance, instigator may claim that X new device is perfectly fine for their eyes, and therefore made the claim that my suggested factor of modulation depth % and flicker hertz is totally irrelevant when applied to the real world. 4 days later, they would pull a 180 degrees turn on their statement~ by claiming that they were indeed affected by flicker’s higher modulation % and lower frequency, and claimed that my claim that modulation depth and frequency is not applicable to the real is completely false.

As you can see from the above, they were having arguments with themselves between their statement made a few days ago, and a few days later. They will just then attribute to whatever contradiction they appear to have by putting words into my mouth. Then, they will have their acquaintance ready to get the discord rolling.

These are clear examples of what I claimed that they have little regard of their consequences and lack any sort of accountability. Should things go south for them, they’ll simply just delete their account, create a new account, and resume their discord under the new identity.

I do also know that they have a history of mirroring what I said and experienced, in order to quickly gain recognition. For instance a while back I had a discussion with another reddit member on my privilege with working in the IT sector — and thus had access to multiple phones for testing. I was able to conduct more testing of smartphones back then.


As we can see from this post below; the former member saw my comment with another member and proceed to promote himself with a new false identity. Through claiming that he works in the IT sector and has access to multiple phones.

https://www.reddit.com/r/PWM_Sensitive/comments/15l0tmb

Again to avoid any suspicion that may arise in their contradiction, they will just redirect the attention which was previously on them to me.

So to address this ~ just ban them from the start.
Click to expand...
I think all of us here support your work, and above all we appreciate what you are doing. It is true that there are many mystical beliefs about screens and PWM, and that if my head doesn't hurt, you don't have to hurt either, and if it hurts it's not because of PWM, etc.

But apart from those mystical people, I personally appreciate your work, both the articles and posts and the Subreddit, because you are generating attention on the subject, and you are providing unique and very useful information that I'm sure will help us all to use screens freely in the future.

There are certain websites and blogs that analyze phones and talk about these issues, and I find it especially funny that they confirm how a phone is good or not for your eyes without any analysis and others seem to just use magic and faith, but I think you don't have to worry about people like that. I think the value that people like you, @pwm away and many more people on this forum, Reddit and websites like Notebookcheck bring has more impact than some crazy people on the internet.

And think that if there are people who want to destroy your work, it is because you are doing something right.
 
  • Like
Reactions: pwm away, jimmy_uk and from reddit the_top_g
now i see it said:
No. Find an 11 that’s still on iOS 16. Some have complained that iOS 17 gives them headaches but iOS 16 didn’t — same phone (11).

I purchased a mint used iPhone 11 on 9/21. It’s on iOS 16.
Click to expand...
How did you set it up without it automatically upgrading? I tried to do this recently with an 1st generation iPad Pro and I could swear it required me to update when I set it up. (I thought because that version of the Pro was good for me that updating the iOS was fine. Unfortunately after the update it causes me the "normal" symptoms like dizziness and nausea.) Visually I can't tell the difference but with them both next to each other one makes me sick and one doesn't. If there is a trick to staying on the old iOS of a used phone I'd love to know it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Pixillated
from reddit the_top_g said:
On this topic, it seems that my username has some how became a household name. I heard even my username was occasionally cited a few times. This certainty brings me honor.

Honestly, I havn't visited macrumors forum have a while.

However, today I was DM (a few times) on reddit to log in to macrumors forum again. There is something that appears to require my immediate attention. I was also asked to clarify my stand towards the below messages, for my positive reputation thus far (not entirely sure if it is the correct word) is at stake here.

I opened my inbox and to my horror ~ below was what discussed about me in a private group chat.


View attachment 2296424

So this user in red omitted circle was a former reddit pwm_sensitive I have banned just about 12 hours ago.

So some context on this user which lead me having to ban him, and thus resulting in him instigating and campaigning against me with the above allegation. (The one in omitted purple is his acquaintance, I supposed.)


This reddit user first came to PWM_sensitive tentatively around June of this year, seeking to learn more about PWM, and interpreting waveform results. Of course, being the me that I am, I showed no constraint in sharing what I knew.

June 2023 - first encounter with this user
source:
https://www.reddit.com/r/PWM_Sensitive/comments/14m942s


Later on July of 2023, he reached out over to me on DM to learn more about this new test of using fast shutter speed I've often been bringing up about. I again shared and discussed with him what I knew.

On August of this year, he created a post promoting his facebook private page. In his post, he claimed that he has access to many phones and can offer early exclusive Opple light meter reading to members only to his private facebook group. While this may seem like a red flag, I let the matter rest for he claimed that he will also share the reading to the PWM reddit sub in due time.

However, he never once contributed any readings to the PWM reddit sub.

In fact, I recently learned that despite having the reddit members compromising their own facebook account details to receive the "exclusive readings", they were never really delivered.

August 2023- 3rd encounter.
source:
https://www.reddit.com/r/PWM_Sensitive/comments/15l0tmb


Shortly following that, he returned back to the PWM sub to promote his own personal website again. While I do not have a problem with him promoting his website despite advice from Reddit moderator guidelines, I closed an eye in view that it might be of beneficial for the members.

August 2023- 4th encounter.
https://www.reddit.com/r/PWM_Sensitive/comments/15oea65

However, I visited his website and it appears to have even more red flags.

His new site appears to use some really heavy background processing, despite being almost an empty bogus and placeholder website. This typically screams malicious collection of your personal data.

What's even more red flag about his website that it was first created in June 2018. There were no post from him since then, until August 2023 where he post Xiaomi 13 readings, in an attempt to convince PWM sub reddit members that this is a brand new website, made with the community in mind.
View attachment 2296026


He remained under the radar until recently. I learned from another member that in the said private group, he has made numerous attempts in instigating members to believe that Google has maliciously changed the PWM frequency in a deliberate attempt to make flicker sensitive users difficult. He claimed that he has evidence to back it up. According to what I learned from another reddit member, another user within that group has repeatingly asked for chart readings for verification. (I taught the member how to verify and interpret the correct frequency, just like how I have first identified the iPhone 15 Pro Max is using a stack 2x 240 hertz on higher brightness).

However, the user again refused to show any readings. A member then cautioned me that it is very likely that he will make his next move on the PWM reddit sub in promoting his agenda. As he was having trouble gathering support on his conspiracy. Although, I was also informed that Nick from Androidcentral might appeared be in full support of this conspiracy claim, despite the lack of evidence in producing the wavechart.

Indeed, it was as he cautioned ~ the user in question did make a post earlier to promote his agenda. In his post, he even claimed that he found sources online "to back up his claim". His "source online" was his own personal questionable website.

Of course, I did attempted to reason and clarify with him. However, he doubled down in his attempt and responded with strawman arguments. Considering his history with his past acitivites, it left me with no choice but to ban him.

Hence, that resulted in him responding with the above messages you saw earlier.

Had it been him alone ranting, I wouldn't have minded. However, what I do mind is that even Nick (from androidcentral) is in full support of his malicious behaviour (based on the screen shots given to me). Even he too, believes that I played a role in hiding the conspiracy surrounding Google's recently launch Pixel 8 pro.

This completely contradicts what I have been doing. I criticised iphone 15 series in not showing any improvement, was also among the first to criticise Apple for pushing down updates upon the iphone 11 pro, through changing its duty cycle and also gamma intensity. All in the name of brighter screen at lower power comsumption.

In one of my post for Xiaomi 13T PWM test, I also admitted that the Pixel 8 Pro gave me one of the worst symptoms ever, citing that it was due to me being extremely sensitive.

Thus despite the above, I really wonder at what point it appears that I am hiding a conspiracy. What I really aim to achieve is that we do not falsely allegate a company for actions they did not commit. For such allegations will only create more friction between our online community, and the display engineers working at the large firms.

Yes, some of them do spend time reading online criticism of OLED PWM. Below is a good example (a member kindly has shared this to me). Please do not circulate this around for I do not wish to have the employee being placed in a difficult position. As Samsung could easily just have him held responsible for publishing this and replace someone else equally as unfamiliar.


With the above, I do question if there is a need to continue this, and how much people online are really benefiting. Being on the other side of a major senior content producer from a tech website is certainty not something I have signed up for.



That said, I am really proud of what the sub PWM sensitive stands for. From what I have learned, the PWM sensitive sub is the only active online public english community that is looking into the phenomenon of screen flickering, and what works or what do not works for us.

In fact — to my knowledge, in terms of screen flickers, we are even slightly ahead of the best researchers investigating to the flickering phenomenon. I couldn't be more proud that a number of the members of the sub community are actively contributing and sharing data (qualitative and quantitative)

Thus, when I learned that this PWM sub was brought to awareness to the best researchers on the flicker phenomenon, it brought me great joy. It is indeed a huge milestone for us whom are struggling to find their next essential device.

https://www.reddit.com/r/PWM_Sensitive/comments/171vu9f

All the above achievement will turn meaningless and futile the moment the sub's core value of seeking better lighting solutions is compromised. If the community is actively involved in promoting conspiracies theories but not producing any tangible solution, it will be just as bad as a bunch of karens clustered together holding hands and cheering just how miserable their life are.

So for those that have saw some of my work ~ what do you guys think? Do you think I should resume such activities?

Or, should I shut the reddit PWM_sensitive community down, before it eventually become compromised?

Do let me know your thoughts on this. Even if we have barely interacted before. :)
Click to expand...
PLEASE DON'T SHUT IT DOWN. It's a great resource for many of us who are struggling with this.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Leindt, from reddit the_top_g, Mr.Simple and 2 others
Pixillated said:
This is weird. I just called Apple senior support. And they said for approximately 200 dollars they can put an LCD screen on an OLED phone. It only applies to certain models. So, you call and see if your model is one of them. I was told the iPhone SE 4 should be able to have an LCD screen put on it.
I am not sure how true that is since it is so far in the future. But, that is what I was told.
I just thought it was interesting.
He did say at this point that the iPhone SE 3 is the last planned LCD screen.
Click to expand...
And which OLED phones they told you are compatible?
 
Pixillated said:
This is weird. I just called Apple senior support. And they said for approximately 200 dollars they can put an LCD screen on an OLED phone. It only applies to certain models. So, you call and see if your model is one of them. I was told the iPhone SE 4 should be able to have an LCD screen put on it.
I am not sure how true that is since it is so far in the future. But, that is what I was told.
I just thought it was interesting.
He did say at this point that the iPhone SE 3 is the last planned LCD screen.
Click to expand...

Pixillated said:
This is weird. I just called Apple senior support. And they said for approximately 200 dollars they can put an LCD screen on an OLED phone. It only applies to certain models. So, you call and see if your model is one of them. I was told the iPhone SE 4 should be able to have an LCD screen put on it.
I am not sure how true that is since it is so far in the future. But, that is what I was told.
I just thought it was interesting.
He did say at this point that the iPhone SE 3 is the last planned LCD screen.
Click to expand...
Apple themselves will do this?! That's the first I've heard of that anywhere.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Leindt and Pixillated
MICHAELSD said:
appleinsider.com

Buyers complain of burn-in on iPhone 15 Pro Max display

An unknown number of iPhone 15 Pro Max owners are finding the image of home screen apps being burnt-in to the display, but the issue doesn't appear to be any worse than any other year.
appleinsider.com appleinsider.com

Update with lower ‘screen on’ cycles incoming? / Worse temporal light modulation for those affected?
Click to expand...
Yeah if this is confirmed to be true by Apple, it is very likely they will push an update to make the screen flicker more to prevent screen burn in.

Such as what you have mention; decreasing the ratio of screen ON time per hertz (resulting in longer duration of flicker), or increasing modulation depth (intensity of flicker).

Another workaround to this is to fully utilize panel's maximize supported hertz. Say for instance a panel can support up to 2880 hertz. A manufacturer may opt to utilize only a quarter of out of it (out of the box). This resulted in the remaining 3/4 of the hertz forever lying dormant.

By fully utilizing each of the supported hertz, there is no need for worsening flickers remedies for screen burn in preventions.

This is also why I am in full support of panels engineered to natively support 3840 hertz or 2880 hertz.

Native 240 hertz used in the Pixel 8 pro or iphone 15 pro, 480 hertz used in the iphone 15/ 15plus, or even some of the Motorola phones with 750hertz that are simply way too low to be manipulated decently without triggering it.

Also for those that argued that this is much more simplier problem than it really is ~ simply by digitally faking additional hertz in order to have better looking Opple reading numbers — it is an extremely myopic thinking.

Please refer to the following illustration.

1697503719864.png

If a manufacturer was to make such like the above, it will not bring any real tangible benefit to the flicker sensitive community.

Since most of us would not benefit from the addition small pulses slotted in between each hertz. In fact, most of us would get symptoms of dizzliness from the pseudo 480 hertz, because of how irregular the waves had transformed into.

This is commonly referred to as irregular wave.
 

Attachments

  • 1697503299807.png
    1697503299807.png
    649.9 KB · Views: 75
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Mr.Simple, pwm away and Leindt
Anyone tried the Pixel 8 Pro yet?

Nicholas Sutrich has provided an initial review, and he says it's not causing him any issues: Google Pixel 8 Pro initial review: five days with Google's greatest phone

As someone who is PWM-sensitive, I cringed at this number, assuming that there was no way I could comfortably use this display for any length of time. Imagine my surprise when I had no issues using the display at all, even without my astigmatism-correcting glasses! It's been five days now, and I have yet to feel any eye strain at all from this display, which is something that I can't say with most other flagships at this price — especially Samsung phones.
Diving into the numbers further makes this even more mysterious. The numbers and graph curve look almost identical on paper to the Pixel 7 Pro, yet, this display must be doing something different under the hood if I'm able to use it without my glasses and not get a headache.
I'll be looking further into this over the next few weeks and update the review with results.
Click to expand...

He's also posted the Opple screenshots, and they indicate "High Risk" all around.

He did mention one thing:

Google hasn't informed me what's different this time around, but I've been using my favorite screen dimmer app with the system display brightness at 100% to cut down on flickering, and everything's been great. I have no idea if the comfort factor will continue, but I'd be extremely happy if it did. After all, I'd love to use a Pixel phone full-time again.
Click to expand...

He didn't say whether he also tested without that app, so maybe it's the app; maybe it's how the phone works at 100% brightness ...

Maybe the app itself is worth a try for anyone on Android?

Link: Screen & Notifications Dimmer
 
I've tried one of those apps on a Samsung Ultra awhile back and it created more problems than it fixed. The Pixels have been a no go for me the past few years. Too bad as it may be the very best Android with it's bloat free environment, fast updates and excellent camera.
 
iPhone 15 Pro - destroyed my eyes and gave all symptoms.
iPhone 15 PM - easiest of any OLED ever on my eyes.
iPhone 15 - setting up now

Not looking good for me. The Pro is a no-go. The PM is usable but after a fair amount of use I will get some eye dryness, redness, and strain. I am not in love with huge phones and $1500 might be too much investment in a device that still causes some issues. I will see what happens with the regular 15 and report back.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MICHAELSD, now i see it, GlenK and 4 others
The.Glorious.Son said:
iPhone 15 Pro - destroyed my eyes and gave all symptoms.
iPhone 15 PM - easiest of any OLED ever on my eyes.
iPhone 15 - setting up now

Not looking good for me. The Pro is a no-go. The PM is usable but after a fair amount of use I will get some eye dryness, redness, and strain. I am not in love with huge phones and $1500 might be too much investment in a device that still causes some issues. I will see what happens with the regular 15 and report back.
Click to expand...
Curious as to why the pro and pro max are different?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.
Top Bottom
Back