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tbrinkma

macrumors 68000
Apr 24, 2006
1,651
93
more like- you'll finally be allowed to use airplane mode on an airplane (as is now, you're supposed to completely shut off phones etc during takeoff/landing)

The irony being that most people 'completely shut off' phones by putting them to sleep and muting them. So everything *except* the screen and speaker is still fully active. Including the radios.

And that's considered acceptable by the airlines.

----------

they'll probably have better luck enforcing that than currently trying to get everyone to power down their phones. (i'm willing to guess maybe 1/2 the people do it)

I think you're being overly generous there.
 

scoobydoo99

Cancelled
Mar 11, 2003
1,007
353
You may be surprised to learn, but they are not actually counting on the passengers hearing an announcement and then quickly acting on a life saving maneuver. There is no "Quick everyone move to starboard" on a plane. If everyone is screaming as the plane is going down, you will take off our headphones. There is no real safety move for the passengers. Rumor is that the assume the crash position is to make sure that your dental records are more likely to be near your body in the wreckage. That's a nice thing, but hardly mission critical. And also there is generally going to be plenty of time to get that message through even the most clueless headset wearer.

I don't think you are understanding the intricacies and dynamic cognitive processing that adds to situational awareness in an emergency. We are talking milliseconds to seconds of early warning and awareness that could mean the difference between making it out and being too disoriented to process what is going on efficiently. For instance, if the accident is preceeded by a thumping or humming or loud pop from an area that quickly catches on fire or suffers structural failure, those without headphones on will have already processed the general direction (ahead, behind) and maybe distance (row behind me or back of the plane) from the danger and instinctively know where to look to assess the situation or which direction to flee. Meanwhile, your headset will have filtered that information and you will have to start your assessment late and with less information.

For the same reason, I have never understood people who keep their window shades closed during takeoff and landing. If a piece of debris gets sucked into an engine, I want to see things happen outside to help me know how to respond. In Europe, there is actually a requirement for those in exit rows to keep their window shades up during takeoff and landing, but I have seen only a few flight attendants in the U.S. require this.
 

zhenya

macrumors 604
Jan 6, 2005
6,929
3,677
I don't think you are understanding the intricacies and dynamic cognitive processing that adds to situational awareness in an emergency. We are talking milliseconds to seconds of early warning and awareness that could mean the difference between making it out and being too disoriented to process what is going on efficiently. For instance, if the accident is preceeded by a thumping or humming or loud pop from an area that quickly catches on fire or suffers structural failure, those without headphones on will have already processed the general direction (ahead, behind) and maybe distance (row behind me or back of the plane) from the danger and instinctively know where to look to assess the situation or which direction to flee. Meanwhile, your headset will have filtered that information and you will have to start your assessment late and with less information.

For the same reason, I have never understood people who keep their window shades closed during takeoff and landing. If a piece of debris gets sucked into an engine, I want to see things happen outside to help me know how to respond. In Europe, there is actually a requirement for those in exit rows to keep their window shades up during takeoff and landing, but I have seen only a few flight attendants in the U.S. require this.

So what you are really arguing is that people should be forced to stay alert for the entire flight. No sleeping, no earplugs. That has nothing to do with consumer electronics.
 

caesarp

macrumors 65816
Sep 30, 2012
1,078
619
Saying it can't be enforced is no excuse for condoning it.

If a rule can't realistically be enforced, it only degrades respect for any and all rules; causes disrespect and disputes with flight attendants and disharmony on an already stressful situation for most people.

I condone reading my kindle app at all phases of flight. I have no fear of it causing a crash. Just like I have no fear of the engine turbines breaking during my flight, but it is POSSIBLE.
 

BadBoyPro

macrumors newbie
Sep 27, 2013
7
0
Not on a commercial flight you wouldn't, 'BadBoy'.

I table that your use of a double negative highlights that you have no idea what you're talking about, however, I have had potential clients ejected for less.

The safety of my passengers is paramount and not one individuals desire or wish will ever override this.
 

tbrinkma

macrumors 68000
Apr 24, 2006
1,651
93
In a typical medium range commercial aircraft (I'm speaking about an airbus a321 or a Boeing 737) between the cockpit and the passenger first rows are just a matter of meters. If you have a dozen phones searching for the net it could be a nightmare on the pilot's radio, believe me.
It's not a real safety reason (but it could be, if a radio communication is lost or misunderstanding), but it has a direct impact on flight operations.
The airplane mode is a must in my opinion.

We don't have to "believe you", because both the physics and the evidence already conclusively demonstrate that you're wrong. To get the interference you're talking about on an set of speakers, you need to have your phone within *inches* of the *unshielded* speaker wire. As distance increases linearly, signal strength decreases exponentially.
 

kdarling

macrumors P6
Yes, cellular signals *can* interfere with speakers or microphones...

...*IF* they are within a few inches of an unshielded speaker or microphone wire. So, any phone interfering with the crews headsets is going to have to be *inside* the cockpit.

FALSE.

There have been reports of GSM buzz in pilot's headphones from passenger phones far back in the cockpit.

See my post above about metal tubes, and antenna wires that pass under your feet.

The irony being that most people 'completely shut off' phones by putting them to sleep and muting them. So everything *except* the screen and speaker is still fully active. Including the radios.

And that's considered acceptable by the airlines.


The airlines and FAA also thought that not having cargo hold fire suppression systems was "acceptable". That is, until we had dozens of people die horribly in various aircraft on fire.

Both the airlines and FAA want to promote flight, gain passengers, and cut costs. If you want to know what is safe, ask the NTSB instead.

All this said, I think that the greater risk right now, is from lithium batteries. There have been more and more reports of batteries catching fire either while in the passenger cabin, or inside luggage just before being loaded into the cargo bay .
 
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ptb42

macrumors 6502a
Oct 14, 2011
703
184
Not on a commercial flight you wouldn't, 'BadBoy'.

If the captain of a commercial flight orders the flight attendants to require you to stow your book, you must stow it. Federal law requires you to follow the instructions by a flight crew. If you don't comply, you can be removed from the plane.

You can file a complaint with the airline, and they may discipline him. But for that flight, he is PIC, or pilot-in-command. It's his decision.
 

zhenya

macrumors 604
Jan 6, 2005
6,929
3,677
If the captain of a commercial flight orders the flight attendants to require you to stow your book, you must stow it. Federal law requires you to follow the instructions by a flight crew. If you don't comply, you can be removed from the plane.

You can file a complaint with the airline, and they may discipline him. But for that flight, he is PIC, or pilot-in-command. It's his decision.

And the point is, on any commercial flight, no pilot is going to do that. He may win the battle at that moment, but he's risking a much bigger threat to his career in the long run if he makes it standard practice to harass his customers.

This guy is just playing Internet big shot.
 

linuxcooldude

macrumors 68020
Mar 1, 2010
2,480
7,232
If a rule can't realistically be enforced, it only degrades respect for any and all rules

Drunk driving and armed robbery comes to mind. People still do it, but the laws are still on the books, that has not went away.


Causes disrespect and disputes with flight attendants and disharmony on an already stressful situation for most people.

Excuses, excuses...not a good reason to put everyones life in risk.


I condone reading my kindle app at all phases of flight.

Not while I'm piloting the plane.
 

kdarling

macrumors P6
And the point is, on any commercial flight, no pilot is going to do that. He may win the battle at that moment, but he's risking a much bigger threat to his career in the long run if he makes it standard practice to harass his customers.

This guy is just playing Internet big shot.

He's right, and you're acting like someone who hasn't flown post-9/11 and/or does not pay attention to the news.

Recently we've seen quite a few people ejected from aircraft for not turning off their devices, or for otherwise disobeying the crew's commands.

Heck, a pilot threw an entire high school vacation group off not long ago, because some/most of the kids were not obeying the flight attendants.

Woman Forced Off Flight, Charged for Not Turning Off Cellphone

Over 100 students and chaperones kicked off flight

On a plane, the crew is in charge. Doesn't matter if you're some movie star or whatever.
 

tbrinkma

macrumors 68000
Apr 24, 2006
1,651
93
Saying it can't be enforced is no excuse for condoning it.

Saying it can't be enforced, has *never* been enforced, and has absolutely no record of causing any accidents despite millions of flights actually *is* a pretty good reason to condone it.
 

ptb42

macrumors 6502a
Oct 14, 2011
703
184
And the point is, on any commercial flight, no pilot is going to do that. He may win the battle at that moment, but he's risking a much bigger threat to his career in the long run if he makes it standard practice to harass his customers.

I don't think you understand the position of a captain of a ship or aircraft. He/she is ultimately responsible for the safety of the aircraft and the passengers. If something happens, the pilot in command is responsible, period.

The review board may determine there were mitigating circumstances. But, if there was any opportunity for the pilot to prevent it from occurring, the pilot will be held responsible.

In the long run, a pilot that is a stickler for safety will do much better than a pilot who isn't. His passengers may grumble, but the smart ones will respect him because he is taking his responsibility seriously.

On the other hand, passengers like you will be waiting on the ground for someone else that is willing to put up with your reluctance to follow instructions.
 
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tbrinkma

macrumors 68000
Apr 24, 2006
1,651
93
FALSE.

There have been reports of GSM buzz in pilot's headphones from passenger phones far back in the cockpit.

See my post above about metal tubes, and antenna wires that pass under your feet.

This claim *again* despite the FAA releasing several statements over the years that there haven't been any confirmed incidents of consumer electronics interfering with airplane systems. And the fact that 'GSM buzz' is a phenomena that's limited *even on unshielded speaker lines* to a range of a few inches.

What you're dealing with is confirmation bias where two events happen in roughly the same place at roughly the same time, so they are considered to be cause and effect, despite a complete lack of supporting evidence, and dozens of carefully controlled and monitored experiments being utterly unable to reproduce the events in question.

As for your 'metal tube' comment:
If you're in a metal tube, and the antenna for a system designed to communicate with the world *outside* that tube is running along the *inside* that tube, it's going to be worthless for exactly the same reasons you think you're citing.

----------

The airlines and FAA also thought that not having cargo hold fire suppression systems was "acceptable". That is, until we had dozens of people die horribly in various aircraft on fire.

So, because a *known-real* risk was incorrectly assumed to be insufficiently dangerous, we should assume that an imagined risk with absolutely no evidence to support it is real? Better search the plane for rampaging, invisible, pink, unicorns while you're at it.

When even controlled experiments designed explicitly to exploit the designs of the planes, using devices that are *grossly* outside of legal operating parameters, can't cause a measurable effect on plane systems, the burden of proof has long since switched over to the folks claiming that consumer electronics *do* pose a risk.
 

Josh125

macrumors 6502
Apr 28, 2008
309
44
Katy, TX
The rules should stay in place, but not for the reason the FAA has been giving for years. As another poster mentioned, having everything off facilitates the crew's safety briefing. I see it nearly every week I travel (2-3 month), people simply don't pay attention to the briefings. Most accidents these days are survivable and if you don't know what to do in the event of emergency you are are risking my life as well. God forbid someone impinge upon your ability to post a status update that frankly no one cares about anyway.
 

scoobydoo99

Cancelled
Mar 11, 2003
1,007
353
So what you are really arguing is that people should be forced to stay alert for the entire flight. No sleeping, no earplugs. That has nothing to do with consumer electronics.

Not at all. You can drive your car with your eyes closed for all I care. I was responding to the comment that wearing headphones is not detrimental to safety. And I never mentioned "during the entire flight", only takeoff and landing.
 

giantfan1224

macrumors 6502a
Mar 9, 2012
870
1,115
I see the same questions and comments over and over again, from people are obviously neither pilots nor engineers. Let's review some:

But my radio / device is in receive only mode.

ALL digital electronics are transmitters. CPUs require oscillators at MHZ to GHz frequencies. Those are transmitters. Even receive only simple transistor radios have oscillators that transmit.

I don't understand why pilots can use iPads but I can't.

The use of those two iPads in the cockpit has taken most airlines over a year to test and get approved. There is no way that those results carry over to dozens of other people using electronics.

How can electronics so far from the cockpit interfere?

The radio antennas, anti-collision antennas, their wires, and all the modern electronic control wires run through the cabin. You can easily be just a few feet away from one of those. There are cases where pilots have gotten emergency automatic climb/descend commands that likely came from passenger electronics in a seat nearby one of those cables.

Why aren't they worried about outside interference as much?

An airplane is what's called a Faraday Cage, because it's a closed metal tube (or a composite with embedded metal for lightening protection). This prevents outside signals from entering the cabin (except through the windows). It also tends to keep the signals that originate inside, inside and bouncing around.

But interference can't bring down a plane, so why should I worry?

Text messages don't stop a car's engine from working, yet they have caused many wrecks and deaths.

Interference, as in disabling something, is usually not the problem. The problem is causing distractions to the pilots or interference to instruments. Safe flight, especially when in the airport area for landing or takeoff, is highly dependent on good communications and no distractions. Non-pilots don't realize that it takes very little to cause an aviation accident, especially when low and slow and in a crowded airspace. All it needs is a chain of little mistakes.

If it's dangerous, why do they allow usage above 10,000 feet?

10,000 feet is also where speed limits change, radio comm rules change, separation distances change, all sorts of things change.

This is because the more altitude you have, the more time that pilots have to debug a problem.

But some airliners have WiFi

Above 10,000 feet. They also use low power, and expect the passenger devices to likewise use low power. See below.

Got an example of an interference?

I have previously posted quite a few examples from the NASA database. GSM buzz, false anti-collision alarms, navigation instrument wonkiness, and autopilot shut-offs are the main ones.

Handled high up, they're not so bad. Within the airport environment, they're a potential accident chain cause.

Here's a good example: Recently, Boeing engineers were certifying one of their airliner models for WiFi. Quite by accident, they found that some laptops ramped up their WiFi power, causing the plane's WiFi to ramp up, and the interference caused the pilots LCD displays to go blank. (!) They fixed it by adding more display shielding, but ...

Consider if that had happened while landing at night or in clouds. It's been proven many times that without working instruments in dark or sightless conditions, a pilot's (and by extension, the passengers') life expectency is measured in minutes. (There was a 747 that crashed on takeoff at night, because of faulty reading instruments. The pilot accidentally rolled it upside down into the sea.)

Would you risk your familiy, or your child's life, just to use your iPad a few minutes more?

I think, until everything on an airliner is shielded and all signals sent by fiber optics, that this is a mistake.

If it is really the risk you make it out to be, all electronic devices should be confiscated at TSA checkpoint and not even allowed on the aircraft. The fact that every commercial jet in the skies right now has a handful of devices that were not powered off, as instructed, means there is a real danger, if we're to accept your argument. The FAA's advisory committee should also be warned of these imminent dangers posed to the flying public if current policy is changed or relaxed.
 

rdlink

macrumors 68040
Nov 10, 2007
3,226
2,435
Out of the Reach of the FBI
Here's your evidence - if there was the slightest actual chance an active phone could bring down a commercial airliner, they would not be allowed in the cabin. Period.

I fly all the time and never turn my phone off. I occasionally use airplane mode on long international trips to save battery but that's the only reason.

Do I have to spell out on how many levels that statement was ridiculous?
 

giantfan1224

macrumors 6502a
Mar 9, 2012
870
1,115
No I certainly am not. My stewards would politely ask you to stow it away for takeoff and landing. If you refused I would have you ejected from the flight.

You appear to be ego-tripping. My brother, brother-in-law and father-in-law are all commercial airline pilots, so I know it when I see it.

Also, the fact that you call them stewards is interesting. Isn't that the very politically incorrect term for today's flight attendants?
 

rdlink

macrumors 68040
Nov 10, 2007
3,226
2,435
Out of the Reach of the FBI
I see the same questions and comments over and over again, from people are obviously neither pilots nor engineers. Let's review some:

But my radio / device is in receive only mode.

ALL digital electronics are transmitters. CPUs require oscillators at MHZ to GHz frequencies. Those are transmitters. Even receive only simple transistor radios have oscillators that transmit.

I don't understand why pilots can use iPads but I can't.

The use of those two iPads in the cockpit has taken most airlines over a year to test and get approved. There is no way that those results carry over to dozens of other people using electronics.

How can electronics so far from the cockpit interfere?

The radio antennas, anti-collision antennas, their wires, and all the modern electronic control wires run through the cabin. You can easily be just a few feet away from one of those. There are cases where pilots have gotten emergency automatic climb/descend commands that likely came from passenger electronics in a seat nearby one of those cables.

Why aren't they worried about outside interference as much?

An airplane is what's called a Faraday Cage, because it's a closed metal tube (or a composite with embedded metal for lightening protection). This prevents outside signals from entering the cabin (except through the windows). It also tends to keep the signals that originate inside, inside and bouncing around.

But interference can't bring down a plane, so why should I worry?

Text messages don't stop a car's engine from working, yet they have caused many wrecks and deaths.

Interference, as in disabling something, is usually not the problem. The problem is causing distractions to the pilots or interference to instruments. Safe flight, especially when in the airport area for landing or takeoff, is highly dependent on good communications and no distractions. Non-pilots don't realize that it takes very little to cause an aviation accident, especially when low and slow and in a crowded airspace. All it needs is a chain of little mistakes.

If it's dangerous, why do they allow usage above 10,000 feet?

10,000 feet is also where speed limits change, radio comm rules change, separation distances change, all sorts of things change.

This is because the more altitude you have, the more time that pilots have to debug a problem.

But some airliners have WiFi

Above 10,000 feet. They also use low power, and expect the passenger devices to likewise use low power. See below.

Got an example of an interference?

I have previously posted quite a few examples from the NASA database. GSM buzz, false anti-collision alarms, navigation instrument wonkiness, and autopilot shut-offs are the main ones.

Handled high up, they're not so bad. Within the airport environment, they're a potential accident chain cause.

Here's a good example: Recently, Boeing engineers were certifying one of their airliner models for WiFi. Quite by accident, they found that some laptops ramped up their WiFi power, causing the plane's WiFi to ramp up, and the interference caused the pilots LCD displays to go blank. (!) They fixed it by adding more display shielding, but ...

Consider if that had happened while landing at night or in clouds. It's been proven many times that without working instruments in dark or sightless conditions, a pilot's (and by extension, the passengers') life expectency is measured in minutes. (There was a 747 that crashed on takeoff at night, because of faulty reading instruments. The pilot accidentally rolled it upside down into the sea.)

Would you risk your familiy, or your child's life, just to use your iPad a few minutes more?

I think, until everything on an airliner is shielded and all signals sent by fiber optics, that this is a mistake.

This is the absolute best post that anyone has put on the thread.
 

Thalesian

macrumors member
May 12, 2009
73
15
Albuquerque, NM
If safety briefings are the main concern, then all distractions (in flight movies, books, etc.) should be banned, not just electronic devices. If having full attention for takeoff and landing is the main concern, then the same goes.

The problem is that the regulations cite interference, which is based on bad physics. There is no magical force that permeates a device in airplane mode that will interfere with the airplane's systems.

When they are transmitting there is a danger, but for cellular band (GSM, etc.). Airplane mode is already widely accepted and used.

Finally, the use of anecdotal evidence (one time a pilot heard static and thought it might have been angry birds) is not acceptable. If these devices were dangerous, there would be, you know, evidence and statistics and other stuff to support that conclusion. But there isn't, and policies, even safety policies, are not good when they are based on superstition.
 

giantfan1224

macrumors 6502a
Mar 9, 2012
870
1,115
The rules should stay in place, but not for the reason the FAA has been giving for years. As another poster mentioned, having everything off facilitates the crew's safety briefing. I see it nearly every week I travel (2-3 month), people simply don't pay attention to the briefings. Most accidents these days are survivable and if you don't know what to do in the event of emergency you are are risking my life as well. God forbid someone impinge upon your ability to post a status update that frankly no one cares about anyway.

What's the difference between someone posting a status update and someone reading from their paperback book? Should everyone have to put away everything and give their undivided attention to the flight attendant during the safety briefing? That's not what's required now.
 

BadBoyPro

macrumors newbie
Sep 27, 2013
7
0
You appear to be ego-tripping. My brother, brother-in-law and father-in-law are all commercial airline pilots, so I know it when I see it.

Also, the fact that you call them stewards is interesting. Isn't that the very politically incorrect term for today's flight attendants?

No ego-trip here. Simply stating facts as facts. Either a client obeys my rules of flight or the client won't be traveling on my aircraft. They can complain all they desire as it matters not one jot. Safety will always come first.

Flight Attendants? Not everyone is Americanised.
 
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