Facebook and Twitter Announce Support for Apple in Backdoor Dispute With FBI

[unplugme71]

Its hard for me to care about their support on this. They both give out information to the government without hesitation. I

You clearly don't understand the reasoning and the impact.

I actually read the letter and thought about the pro/cons of what this could do before I went off shouting an uneducated answer. I 100% side with Apple on this. We can't be giving up our rights so easily. We are very fortunate to have a big company side with the people on this case. Apple actually cares about privacy more than anyone else. I shame Microsoft for not doing the same.

It's one thing for the police to request information about a person and I'm 100% okay with this. Why? Because Apple verifies the validity of the request and ONLY provides the most minimal amount of information needed to fulfill the request.

With this new FBI request, the government can basically keep a constant stream of data flowing from our phones and capturing everything at will.

 

[sehix]

You're talking about Apple right?
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...ked-iphones-for-the-feds-70-times-before.html

The DailyBeast article is in error, as noted here:

In the area of technical issues, it really helps to get details right.

 

[Rigby]

PASSCODE is also stored on the device. You can backup the device to a computer and scan the backup to retrieve the pass code, say million times, your 10 tries restriction means nothing.

The passcode is not stored on the device. The way it works is basically this:

- user enters passcode
- phone derives a cryptographic key from the passcode using a complex algorithm
- phone attempts to use the key to decrypt memory contents
- if the key is correct the decryption succeeds, and the phone is unlocked
- if the key is not correct, the decryption fails, the memory remains encrypted, and the phone cannot be unlocked

 

[Wondercow]

W was not a "terrorist". Terrorists are politically-motivated killers without armies. They strike at random civilian targets because they do not have the means to strike at their enemy in force and en masse. W had an army; therefore no terrorism was required. QED.

Now, if you had said "mass killer", I would not have had to respond.

Well....
A person who uses terrorism in the pursuit of political aims
Oxford Dictionary of English

One that engages in acts or an act of terrorism
American Heritage Dictionary, 4th Ed.

 

[DrewDaHilp1]

America is the most regulate country in the Western World. 911 would not have happen if the TSA had done their job.

It's not Apples fault Amerce officials had been warned of these two terrorists and didn't act so it's their fault people got killed just like the TSA coursed 911.

i love living in New Zealand the true land of the free.

The TSA didn't exist prior to 9/11. Even if they did the track record they have(catching zero terrorists) says that they wouldn't have caught the 9/11 hijackers.

 

[sehix]

America is the most regulate country in the Western World. 911 would not have happen if the TSA had done their job.

It's not Apples fault Amerce officials had been warned of these two terrorists and didn't act so it's their fault people got killed just like the TSA coursed 911.

Lessee.... "911" occurred on 9/11/2001. The TSA was formed on 11/19/2001. Proof of a working time machine!!

Wait. Brits are known for being masters of irony and sarcasm, are Kiwis bucking for the top spot now?

 

[nviz22]

I laughed at Donald Trump's criticisms towards Apple. Shouldn't the goal for law enforcement be developing techniques to keep up with technology without infringing on people's rights (explicit and implicit alike)?

 

[sehix]

Why can't Apple write the code needed, extract all data held on the device or within this one account, and then, under apple's own internal security destroy all copies of the software.
Do it all internally under Apple's highest security.

Isn't that the simple answer? Unless Apple does not trust itself?

There are any number of examples of difficult problems (engineering, athletic, what have you) that, when they're shown to be solvable once, have then been solved by multiple others. Just knowing that something can be done goes a long way to doing it again.

Unless of course Apple feels if they do this once, they will be asked to do it again.

Bingo.

 

[Soccertess]

While I'm not Tim lover, I must say good job

 

[ProjectManager101]

I love this... Apple is being supported by a bunch of companies who give information to the FBI any way. I hope the government spend their time educating people so they do not become terrorists to begin with. because the U.S. government is nothing about "making a better world". They are into "making a better war" instead, no wonder so many enemies.

 

[predation]

www.trumpdonald.org

 

[sehix]

Keep in mind any device running older version iOS doesn't have encryption.

Riiiiiiiiiiight.

According to Apple's white paper on legal guidelines for law enforcement:

For all devices running iOS 8.0 and later versions, Apple will not perform iOS data extractions as data extraction tools are no longer effective. The files to be extracted are protected by an encryption key that is tied to the user’s passcode, which Apple does not possess.

So, encryption in iOS 8 and later.

For iOS devices running iOS versions earlier than iOS 8.0, upon receipt of a valid search warrant issued upon a showing of probable cause, Apple can extract certain categories of active data from passcode locked iOS devices. Specifically, the user generated active files on an iOS device that are contained in Apple’s native apps and for which the data is not encrypted using the passcode (“user generated active files”), can be extracted and provided to law enforcement on external media. Apple can perform this data extraction process on iOS devices running iOS 4 through iOS 7. Please note the only categories of user generated active files that can be provided to law enforcement, pursuant to a valid search warrant, are: SMS, iMessage, MMS, photos, videos, contacts, audio recording, and call history. Apple cannot provide: email, calendar entries, or any third-party app data.

Why? Those forms of data on pre-iOS 8 are encrypted.

Some of your previous posts on this issue have been similarly flawed, by the way. You might want to fix that, i.e. do some actual homework.

 

[Roric]

I keep seeing reports that suggest the FBI is demanding Apple to unlock the iPhone in question and Apple and other tech experts keep saying that it's a "dangerous precedent" or a "slippery slope", but I haven't heard anyone say that it is actually not possible to decrypt this particular phone. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it currently impossible to crack the iPhone in question? The FBI wants Apple to create a new version of iOS. How are they going to install this new version on this phone if it is already locked and encrypted? From what I know about iOS, you can't install software updates without the passcode. I don't even think you can erase iPhones anymore without the passcode, right? I know that it's possible to create a backdoor in future versions of iOS, but current iPhones that are already encrypted? That just doesn't seem possible. Yet I haven't actually heard anyone come out and say that.

This is my question from the beginning too. Not having an iPhone, I do not know exactly how the upgrade happens. Does the phone need to be unlocked before it can be loaded with the new OS? If so, how does this new OS get loaded that bypasses the security of the locked phone?

 

[LucasG]

Sad that private companies are more conscious of our rights than our own government.

Sad that you believe that the government could actually be conscious about your rights.

 

[Tinmania]

He stopped backing up to iCloud three months or so before the incident.

Yes because he ran out of room with the generous 5GB that Apple provides.



Mike
[doublepost=1455901735][/doublepost]

PASSCODE is also stored on the device. You can backup the device to a computer and scan the backup to retrieve the pass code, say million times, your 10 tries restriction means nothing.

Again it is not that FBI don't have the data, they cannot use that as evidence in the court of law unless it is legally obtained.

This nonsense is a new low, even for this site.

Claiming the FBI "has the data" is akin to saying they "have the data" of 5 million pages of documents shredded to molecular level.


Mike

 

[Four oF NINE]

All my complaints about Tim Cook as Apple CEO are washed away by his courageous and principled stand on this issue.

 

[tunerX]

America is the most regulate country in the Western World. 911 would not have happen if the TSA had done their job.

It's not Apples fault Amerce officials had been warned of these two terrorists and didn't act so it's their fault people got killed just like the TSA coursed 911.

i love living in New Zealand the true land of the free.

The TSA was started because of 9/11.

Sep 11 2001 - World Trade Center
Oct 26 2001 - Patriot Act
Nov 19 2001 - TSA
Nov 25 2001 - DHS

 

[neutralguy]

George W was one of the biggest terrorists of all. The fact you hold him up as a guiding light... good grief.

The fact that Apple wanted this to be handled privately and the FBI chose otherwise is interesting. I think the arrogance of those at the higher levels within the FBI will come back to bite, hard.

It's a massive PR win for Apple right now, and even more do if they see it through. [But the outcome is A LOT more important to all of us than what a few extra sales are to .]

Google are in an awkward position. *squirm baby, squirm!*

Actually Google is not at all in awkward position. Thy must be doing the token support and sitting with popcorn. Because they know no matter what national security trumps everything. Apple will lose this battle and by the time the lose it, their image will be completely battered. Also remember Apple does not have a good image with US government because of hoarding up money in offshore accounts.

 

[ChrisCW11]

In other news, Apple being considered a hero for privacy rights and security has some people laughing out loud while they browse nude celebrity iPhotos and endless YouTube video showing people "hacking" the iPhone lock screen using some exploit that usually involves taking a photo and clicking in the right combination of places.

The only way to securely protect the content on your iPhone is to enter January 1, 1970, 12:00 am as the time on your phone, even the FBI can't access it then.

But I agree, the FBI shouldn't have to ask Apple to open up another security hole on the iPhone, they just need to wait until the next iOS update.

 

[Wondercow]

PASSCODE is also stored on the device. You can backup the device to a computer and scan the backup to retrieve the pass code, say million times, your 10 tries restriction means nothing.

Again it is not that FBI don't have the data, they cannot use that as evidence in the court of law unless it is legally obtained.

You do understand, don't you, that with any other crackable, or simply unlocked, device the contents are legally obtained by law-enforcement agencies without having to go through the manufacture or software creator as a matter of normal course.

Second, the FBI already has permission from the owner of the phone to retrieve said data. Therefore, it is legally obtained with permission of the owner.

Why you think the FBI needs Apple to ensure that the contents of the phone are "legally obtained" I have no idea.

 

[foodog]

since all these tech firms have way more free cash flow then the government to fight back it appears to be a slam dunk for them. and after all of this i am proud of apple for fighting this. it is a very good business move that either way paints them as the champion of the consumer. we should see some good quarterly results bouncing off this over the next few quarters which is really what matters in the end.

The federal goverments cash flow is only restricted by the money they take from us.

I'm wondering what could be possibly be on the phone that is not in an iCloud Backup. The feds could easily get a warrant via the Third Party Doctrine and get the info off of iCloud servers. Honestly this feels like the Feds are attempting to do a power play.

Apple has already turned over everything from the iCloud account.
[doublepost=1455903652][/doublepost]

I respect Apple's decision, HOWEVER - There is something to be said here. Creating a special version that would hack this particular iPhone would not automatically mean that all iPhones are in jeopardy. .

This isn't about the hardware being vulnerable as much as it is about setting a court precedent. If Apple is forced to do this, who is the next one forced to comply?
[doublepost=1455904067][/doublepost]

I keep seeing reports that suggest the FBI is demanding Apple to unlock the iPhone in question and Apple and other tech experts keep saying that it's a "dangerous precedent" or a "slippery slope", but I haven't heard anyone say that it is actually not possible to decrypt this particular phone. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it currently impossible to crack the iPhone in question? The FBI wants Apple to create a new version of iOS. How are they going to install this new version on this phone if it is already locked and encrypted? From what I know about iOS, you can't install software updates without the passcode. I don't even think you can erase iPhones anymore without the passcode, right? I know that it's possible to create a backdoor in future versions of iOS, but current iPhones that are already encrypted? That just doesn't seem possible. Yet I haven't actually heard anyone come out and say that.

The FBI isn't asking to decrypt the phone. What they want is to try every possible passcode until the phone unlocks. They have three specific requests. Paraphrased below.

Allow more than 10 attempts at guessing the passcode.
Remove the time delay between attempts.
Allow passcodes to be entered without screen interaction.
[doublepost=1455904259][/doublepost]

This is my question from the beginning too. Not having an iPhone, I do not know exactly how the upgrade happens. Does the phone need to be unlocked before it can be loaded with the new OS? If so, how does this new OS get loaded that bypasses the security of the locked phone?

Yes it has to be unlocked.

 

[groovyd]

The federal goverments cash flow is only restricted by the money they take from us.

true, but they are already in deficit and have a ton of other projects that they have to divide the money up for. they cannot just quickly adjust their entire budget to meet this new demand. apple is hugely in profit and can appoint the funds for this on demand.

 

[Chupa Chupa]

true, but they are already in deficit and have a ton of other projects that they have to divide the money up for. they cannot just quickly adjust their entire budget to meet this new demand. apple is hugely in profit and can appoint the funds for this on demand.

1) The fact the gov't runs a deficit means it either spends too much, take in too little, or a combination of each. But the gov't has the power to raise as much money as we have in our savings and get in our paycheck. Let's not pretend the gov't is a poor retired senior on a fixed income. That's absurd. Gov't has more power than any company because 1) it prints the money, 2) it has the power to tax, and 3) it regulates the companies.

2) What you are suggesting that because Apple has lots of money so they should pay to decrypt the phone makes zero sense. Perhaps you are not familiar with the Takings Clause in the 5th Amendment? Honestly, sounds like you are not familiar with U.S civics at all.

 

[brianvictor7]

The slippery slope fallacy is strong in this thread.

How so?

 

[techwhiz]

The federal goverments cash flow is only restricted by the money they take from us.



Apple has already turned over everything from the iCloud account.
[doublepost=1455903652][/doublepost]

This isn't about the hardware being vulnerable as much as it is about setting a court precedent. If Apple is forced to do this, who is the next one forced to comply?
[doublepost=1455904067][/doublepost]

The FBI isn't asking to decrypt the phone. What they want is to try every possible passcode until the phone unlocks. They have three specific requests. Paraphrased below.

Allow more than 10 attempts at guessing the passcode.
Remove the time delay between attempts.
Allow passcodes to be entered without screen interaction.
[doublepost=1455904259][/doublepost]

Yes it has to be unlocked.

But it's a chicken and egg problem.
They are assuming that you can load a new OS on a locked phone.
From my understanding and what I know about the iPads I own/owned is that an OS upgrade cannot be done if the device is locked because you cannot initiate the download and click the box to say install.

So what they are actually asking for is the following:
1. A way to bypass the current checks to upgrade the OS from the computer side without wiping the phone.
2. Infinite guesses
3. No delay between guesses
4. Automated way to do a brute force attack on the phone

Number one is huge and may not be possible without finding a serious exploit in the current OS.
if it is found, Apple will patch it in the next round.

Four is also troubling because they are demanding a private company to develop software to hack a device.

Apple is doing the right thing.
What is to prevent every nation that Apple sells product to ask for the same thing?